Book 2 – Page 87

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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Keldaria » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:30 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
ask Stanley to promote a new CW, within Spacerock. ..
why parson didn't do that in the first place and try to convince Stanely to pick a different CW.


Parson was doing just that.


Yes, but that's not what i was asking, what i'm asking is why didn't parson argue with stanely over the position AFTER Maggie "suggested" he make parson CW and convince stanley to change his mind and give someone else the CW position, instead of heading right into the magic kingdom. Only answer i can think of would be that Parson knew that the suggestion spell would make it impossible for him to convince Stanley


You are of course assuming that you can simply promote CWL's freely as you wish without consequence or restrictions. For 1 I don't believe it's as simple as saying "I choose you to be my CWL" even though that's how they made it look. Simply put if you could just change CWL's on the fly then it would be as simple as flopping warlords in the middle of turns as it best suited you. Remember this is turned based combat, just because you have war on all sides doesn't mean you have to make them engage at the same time.. so you've got a battle going in 3 spots, oh look lets make my CWL the guy leading assault number 1, then after they succeed or fail or run out of move, then we'll make our CWL the guy leading assault number 2 and so on until your side is out of move and you end your turn. Furthermore I'd have to assume that changing CWL status off of your turn would be even more restricted, after all you wouldn't want the enemy to all the sudden promote a CWL in every hex you decide to attack on the fly like that, lets keep in mind stanley (formally a CWL of his own side) started out as a basic grunt unit, it was only after he found and attuned to the hammer that he started moving up the chain of command. With that knowledge in mind there isn't really anything stopping them from promoting stabber number 3 to being the CWL of their side, except the lack of a bonus. So if anyone could be a CWL then allowing them to be switched at will would lead to way too much abuse.. IMO there are rules that govern the leaders ability to change their CWL and you can only change CWL's once on your turn or whenever they get croaked/captured.

Of course this too can have ways to abuse and I'm sure there might be a parsons clog on the subject at a later time but if you had 2 forces working together but not allied. Since it is possible for 2 enemy forces to enter the same hexes and not engage with the control of a warlord, it would be very simple to flop warlords by having your Chief Warlord unstack as your need for him finishes in one area and have him walk alone into the "Friendemies" (yes its my own word thats a combination of Friend and Enemy) hex to be captured, then you promote the next guy and move on, when your Friendemy starts their turn they release your warlord into your hex and proceed to do the same with their warlords as needed.

However at any rate I think that its safe to say that at least until next turn there are rules in place that prevent stanley from opting to switch his CWL, unless parson was to be captured.. which the thinkamancer guild may or may not count as capturing him... I don't think they work for any "Side" to speak of, so can a non-side like marbits and/or gobwin tribes, or in this case a thinkamancers guild in the neutrality of the magic kingdom actually capture a unit (with his permission of course) and allow stanley to pick another CWL? That I don't know
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby drachefly » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:53 pm

CWL change is already expensive, so I don't think there's any particular basis for expecting further restrictions.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Saladman » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:03 pm

Parson wrote:For your secret... psionic wars, or whatever.


Oh, so close!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby splexis » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:27 pm

DIBesq wrote:Real king dead? Wouldn't Trem have known immediately when he awoke? Was duplicate so good that he serves in ALL respects as the king? Doesn't even know he is the duplicate?


The duplicate was so good that even he did not know. So I buy it that Trem wouldn't have known.

DIBesq wrote:Ever notice how the towers look like pen nibs? Charlie is the AUTHOR?


Also somewhat like the objects under the portals in Portal Park.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby elecampane » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:45 pm

0beron wrote: Maggie's necklace <...> is the sign of the Great Minds. Bunny does NOT wear this sign anywhere that we can see, which leads me to suspect (previously, but even more strongly so now) that she is actually on the Charlie side of the conflict in the Psionics War.

Actually, she wears very alike-looking necklace, albeit of another color:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -04-21.jpg
Details on the necklace are hard to discern, unfortunately
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby 0beron » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:58 pm

Ah my bad, thanks for that catch. The color difference makes me suspicious, but we don't have a way to know if this is significant.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Lamech » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:19 pm

0beron wrote:Ah my bad, thanks for that catch. The color difference makes me suspicious, but we don't have a way to know if this is significant.

If she is part of the GMtTA that means they should know that Slately has fallen. As soon as Parson gets word of that he should be able to force a JS surrender, and force them to invite Parson and co. into the city
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:51 pm

Sieggy wrote:assuming that Charlie can get the funds transferred in time, which I don't think will be a problem as plot advancement demands it

Given that hat teleportation seems to be the best alternative to thinkamancy, I would assume that Charlie has at least one such hat for competitive research.

Regarding the cutaway to Charlescomm, I don't think the fountain pen nib with the window is the capital-T Tower. It looks to me like it is the outside face of one of the wall towers, and the tower in the background is the corresponding inside face of a similar tower. I think that's just an archon in the window.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Salem » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:56 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Sieggy wrote:assuming that Charlie can get the funds transferred in time, which I don't think will be a problem as plot advancement demands it

Given that hat teleportation seems to be the best alternative to thinkamancy, I would assume that Charlie has at least one such hat for competitive research.

Regarding the cutaway to Charlescomm, I don't think the fountain pen nib with the window is the capital-T Tower. It looks to me like it is the outside face of one of the wall towers, and the tower in the background is the corresponding inside face of a similar tower. I think that's just an archon in the window.

That doesn't mean it can't be Charlie.
Charlie's face to the world is a little talkie box on a table near a couch, while 15 feet away behind a curtain sits an Archon, slyly voicing it from that end telling each and every archon that they had the courage all along.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:58 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Given that hat teleportation seems to be the best alternative to thinkamancy, I would assume that Charlie has at least one such hat for competitive research.
Perhaps a Hatamancy/Dittomancy/Thinkamancy tricaster link to make a copy of any report sent through a hat?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Lamech » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:08 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Given that hat teleportation seems to be the best alternative to thinkamancy, I would assume that Charlie has at least one such hat for competitive research.
Perhaps a Hatamancy/Dittomancy/Thinkamancy tricaster link to make a copy of any report sent through a hat?

Oh dear god, copying things sent through hats. I think this is now the ultimate combo. TV could have lent Jetstone the gem if they had one of those hats.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby bladestorm » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:24 pm

Moneymancer/thinkamancer/croakamancer linkup. Converts corpses not only into new units, but also into money. Croak a chipmunk, and find schuckers on the corpse before you reanimate it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Salem » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:41 pm

bladestorm wrote:Moneymancer/thinkamancer/croakamancer linkup. Converts corpses not only into new units, but also into money. Croak a chipmunk, and find schuckers on the corpse before you reanimate it.

Or Moneymancer/thinkamancer/croakamancer.
Create a zombie economy shambling along, supporting itself entirely on the faith of the consumers and their need to spend.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby SteveMB » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:42 pm

drachefly wrote:CWL change is already expensive, so I don't think there's any particular basis for expecting further restrictions.


If cost is the only issue, it probably wouldn't be a problem with GK, what with their pile of gems released by the eruption and their conquests to date.

That said, I can think of one other big obstacle -- Stanley. Bluntly manipulating him either by suggestion spells or arguing with him is rather risky; the spell might fail or the argument might enrage him, leaving him primed to do boop knows what. In the absence of someone who can subtly manipulate him the way Wanda did, it's best to minimize the need for Overlord-level command decisions.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Housellama » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:39 pm

Panel 10 is Maggie's version of Parson's "lulwut?" face. It's nice to see things come full circle.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Nnelg » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:42 pm

Lamech wrote:If [Bunny] is part of the GMtTA that means they should know that Slately has fallen. As soon as Parson gets word of that he should be able to force a JS surrender, and force them to invite Parson and co. into the city

Even if she is, I don't think she could betray her Duty to Don that way. Besides, that would only help defeat Jetstone, not Charlie.


Salem wrote:What I was getting to though was that I don't think Rob would think of his fans, who are smart enough to adore his work, as idiots, that feels a bit harsh just because they're betting on the long shot. Plenty of stories have played the pea swap, and a lot of people are emotionally vested in Slately, I like the little guy myself.

Oh, no, Rob wouldn't think his readers were idiots. Only that he himself was unclear. This way, nobody feels cheated when clone-Slately suddenly depops without warning or fanfare.


Lamech wrote:I think Wanda also gives out a chief bonus. She's chief caster I think that's an official "game" mechanical title. However it only applies to uncroaked or decrypted if I'm right. We do know from summer updates to decrypted she gives a 1 to all on her side, a 4 to all in her hex, and 8 to her stack.

IIRC, that was including the artifact bonus for the Arkenpliers.


Kreistor wrote:King Clonely is the glue holding its Side together, yes. But contracts seem to have environmental aspects, where the agreement cannot be broken. We dont know the details of the contract sub-rules so I don't think anyone can assume that Charlie can get what MarbitChow thinks. Our own legal system would void such a contract based on Charlie and Clonely having differing expectations from the contract, or from the contract being too one sided. I'm not beyond the idea that the contract sub-rules prevent such abuses. So, in other words, Charlie may be unable to abuse this loophole with a contract, because the contract rules may prohibit a deluded cretion like Clonely from making a binding deal, simply because he is inherently a loophole.

Unless the rules vs. scalping are very lax indeed, then if they existed Charlie wouldn't have been able to make that outrageous offer to TV during tBfGK.

Besides, it's not like Clone-Slately would agree to anything Real-Slately wouldn't.


bladestorm wrote:So appoint Vurp as Heir Designate, since he is the sole remaining member of the Knights in Stanley's Service and lone hobgoblin survivor of tBfGK.
Vurp's not a member of GK, he's a Natural Ally. It still might be possible to make him heir, but such a thing is unprecedented within the history of the comic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Lamech » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:18 pm

Nnelg wrote:
Lamech wrote:If [Bunny] is part of the GMtTA that means they should know that Slately has fallen. As soon as Parson gets word of that he should be able to force a JS surrender, and force them to invite Parson and co. into the city

Even if she is, I don't think she could betray her Duty to Don that way. Besides, that would only help defeat Jetstone, not Charlie.
It would resolve Parson's attempts to commit suicide and place Parson a much stronger position to defeat Charlie. In addition it would give Parson some grounds to trust the GMtTA.

How does this hurt TV again? Its not like GK is attacking them. I suppose she could use it as a bargaining chip for a pile of useful scrolls and other items produced by TGMtTA, making the deal even more in the favor of taddling to the GMtTA. At most she is simply leaking info to the GMtTA, something Maggie does on a regular basis.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Infidel » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:27 pm

Beeskee wrote:Is it still 'holding the idiot ball' if Parson KNOWS he's holding the idiot ball, and this whole thing was a bad move?



Sometimes you're left with poor choices, that isn't holding the idiot ball. That's receiving a birthday cake full of doo. Moving through MK is the only way to move his bonus to where it was needed. He didn't order the tower down. He didn't order Wanda into MK. Or Maggie to get Stanley to make him CW. Those were units using their initiative. In a way, this whole book is about people's good intentions creating hell, for Parson.

MonteCristo wrote:
Considering Sylvia's "burn it all" plan, I would say she would probably be a bad choice.


Why? The burn it all plan would have a high likelyhood of working. It perfectly ruthless, and we have people on here arguing that Parson was an idiot for dropping the ruthless sword.


Well you always have to weigh in "does parson NEED to be there";


Parson already did say "they NEED the bonus." He's the one with the bonus they need. Ergo, whomever is the CW NEEDs to be there. He's the one with the mathamancy bracelet and who has calculated all the important factors. So we are supposed to trust his judgement in this.

Oberon wrote:Why is she using a thinkagram when she and Don are in the same city? Seems a waste of juice.


Maybe this is why she is always portrayed as lethargic.


---

I'm not seeing a suddenly aged Maggie as Parson rips into her. I'm seeing a closeup shot that just shows more detail.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:21 am

Infidel wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:
Considering Sylvia's "burn it all" plan, I would say she would probably be a bad choice.


Why? The burn it all plan would have a high likelyhood of working. It perfectly ruthless, and we have people on here arguing that Parson was an idiot for dropping the ruthless sword.


First off, because jetstone now controls the airspace, Slately and Trem can easily escape the city, thus burning down the garrison may not result in the end of the side and could only give them a captiol; which is a lesser reward. Second, the garrision burning could cause significant damage to GK's troops; now the benefit of decryption is that wanda can replenish lost forces by decypting the fallen enemy, but if GK takes the city then the MK portal will close and wanda will be unable to decypt the enemy; thus this battle would end in a net loss for GK and their only consolation is one capitol city. Third, It is even possible that GK could be dusted before jetstone and thus jetsone is victorious; granted according to syvia the red dwagons would survive the fire and thus never be dusted by the blaze, but jetstone can avoid this by moving all their forces outside the city and surrendering the city... which brings me to my last point..

... i think there are even a few ways that jetstone can use the fire to their advantage... Namely they move most of their forces outside of the city but keep some soliders in the garrision doing their best to stay alive while sending some other durable troops to replace them; So long as jetstone has troops in the garrison, GK is trapped in the burning garrison, and with most of Jetstone's forces outside the city, it will thusly be GK who takes most of the damage from the fire. And if Jetstone forces in the city croak in the blaze and GK does get the city, the jetsone forces will not be captured since they are outside the city. Furtharmore, since it would still be jetstone's turn, they can invade the city right away, surround the garrison and dust the GK forces as they try to leave the burning garrison, placing Jestone in a serious advantage. Jetstone would be able to retake the city just after giving it up.

Hell they can do even more if Charlie were to inform them about wanda's trip to the magic kingdom. Ceding the city right away would mean turning off the mk portal and thus denying the GK forces reinforncements through decryption; jestone with their superior numbers and leadership would have a clear advantage. Or another plan, if Sylvia were to burn the garrison, they could move most of the forces outside of the city and wait for wanda's return; when she returns they surrender the city and thus cut off her escape route through MK and thus trap her in the burning garrison. She can attempt to escape, but as i said before, jetstone would invade the city, surround the garrison and start croaking and dusting GK's forces as they flee. Its a bit more risky since wanda's involved, but it gives them a chance to croak her and end the decyption threat once and for all.

All in all, Sylvia's burn it all plan seems very short sighted and is prone to countless errors that could turn this battle into a heavy loss for GK.
Not to mention she doesn't even realize that the whole reason wanda left was because they realized it was a bad idea to leave parson in MK (now along with wanda and Jack)... that thought has not yet dawned on sylvia who is still trying to take the city.

Well you always have to weigh in "does parson NEED to be there";


Parson already did say "they NEED the bonus." He's the one with the bonus they need. Ergo, whomever is the CW NEEDs to be there. He's the one with the mathamancy bracelet and who has calculated all the important factors. So we are supposed to trust his judgement in this.

YOu need to keep in account the context of poeple's statements. Namely i was responding to why parson was not a good choice for chief warlord in the first place. He doesn't need to see this battle personally in order to advise and direct it; he could have had someone else be the CW while he controls the battle by thinkagram and wanda. The only reason he needs to be there NOW is because he got stuck with the CW job.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Lamech » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:20 am

MonteCristo wrote:
Infidel wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:
Considering Sylvia's "burn it all" plan, I would say she would probably be a bad choice.


Why? The burn it all plan would have a high likelyhood of working. It perfectly ruthless, and we have people on here arguing that Parson was an idiot for dropping the ruthless sword.


First off, because jetstone now controls the airspace, Slately and Trem can easily escape the city, thus burning down the garrison may not result in the end of the side and could only give them a captiol; which is a lesser reward. Second, the garrision burning could cause significant damage to GK's troops; now the benefit of decryption is that wanda can replenish lost forces by decypting the fallen enemy, but if GK takes the city then the MK portal will close and wanda will be unable to decypt the enemy; thus this battle would end in a net loss for GK and their only consolation is one capitol city. Third, It is even possible that GK could be dusted before jetstone and thus jetsone is victorious; granted according to syvia the red dwagons would survive the fire and thus never be dusted by the blaze, but jetstone can avoid this by moving all their forces outside the city and surrendering the city... which brings me to my last point..

... i think there are even a few ways that jetstone can use the fire to their advantage... Namely they move most of their forces outside of the city but keep some soliders in the garrision doing their best to stay alive while sending some other durable troops to replace them; So long as jetstone has troops in the garrison, GK is trapped in the burning garrison, and with most of Jetstone's forces outside the city, it will thusly be GK who takes most of the damage from the fire. And if Jetstone forces in the city croak in the blaze and GK does get the city, the jetsone forces will not be captured since they are outside the city. Furtharmore, since it would still be jetstone's turn, they can invade the city right away, surround the garrison and dust the GK forces as they try to leave the burning garrison, placing Jestone in a serious advantage. Jetstone would be able to retake the city just after giving it up.

Hell they can do even more if Charlie were to inform them about wanda's trip to the magic kingdom. Ceding the city right away would mean turning off the mk portal and thus denying the GK forces reinforncements through decryption; jestone with their superior numbers and leadership would have a clear advantage. Or another plan, if Sylvia were to burn the garrison, they could move most of the forces outside of the city and wait for wanda's return; when she returns they surrender the city and thus cut off her escape route through MK and thus trap her in the burning garrison. She can attempt to escape, but as i said before, jetstone would invade the city, surround the garrison and start croaking and dusting GK's forces as they flee. Its a bit more risky since wanda's involved, but it gives them a chance to croak her and end the decyption threat once and for all.

All in all, Sylvia's burn it all plan seems very short sighted and is prone to countless errors that could turn this battle into a heavy loss for GK.
Not to mention she doesn't even realize that the whole reason wanda left was because they realized it was a bad idea to leave parson in MK (now along with wanda and Jack)... that thought has not yet dawned on sylvia who is still trying to take the city.
Trying to maintain a balance of units in/out of the garrison will be very risky. If GK catches them, they will auto-attack (and promptly be massacred by well led dwagons, or infantry.) At which point all the GK forces can escape. Also what if GK lights the entrances of the garrison on fire? That will block reinforcements, since minimal defenders got left inside those will be taken out and the GK units of value can escape. More to the points its a very good last resort. If Jetstone tries to evict GK from the garrison they can just light the whole thing on fire. And if GK decides to start the fire at the exits, well... all those Jetstone units go down with GK. Also the city can be razed as soon as its captured. Jetstone won't be retaking anything.

Finally, Right now Sylvia is most certainly NOT lighting the garrison on fire. She is having Archer conduct his search; which he should be doing. Those units in the palace presumably don't have good leadership, while GK does. At the very least they are lacking the dittomancer's doubling of bonuses. Now is the time to act. She is using the fire as a last resort, and its a good last resort.
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