Book 2 – Page 87

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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Arky » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:45 am

drachefly wrote:
Oberon wrote:
Arky wrote:CharlieWatch: We now know that whatever Charlie is, he's not tall enough or wide enough to stick out past the chair back. Progress!
Where are you seeing Charlie? In the top window of the tower? That's good eyesight!

I think Arky interpreted the tower as a throne. An outdoor throne.


Yeah, I did. Oops. The presence of the Arkendish made me think we were watching Charlie use the Arkendish to spy on the battle.

Drat.

Incidentally, I agree that Charlie is meant to have seen Slately's fall via Arkendish or via Archon spies and not via listening to Bunny.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Oberon » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:25 am

drachefly wrote:Ossomer was never CWL of GK, so what do you mean here?
Yeah, that's my bad. With Ansom out of the picture and Ossomer 'on point' as the interface to Slately, I'd forgotten that it went from Ansom to Parson.
wrecan wrote:I wonder, since Parson admits he has no plan, that TGMtTA may make the following deal:
2. Isaac promises to send enough Thinkamancers into the battle to ensure that GK takes Jetstone. (To keep things legal, GK hires tGMtTA for a nominal fee.)
I wouldn't expect TGMtTA to violate the MK neutrality unless it was in a clearly winning battle against Charlie. Violating that neutrality just to help Parson win a battle he can win without them (if they'll get the hell out of his way) would be foolish.
Nnelg wrote:
Oberon wrote:Jetstone has a few options for survival:
[...]
Win (Parson doesn't consider this fight to be a done deal, at least).

Still not a surviving option. GK didn't commit all of its forces in this battle: it still has an army no more than a few turns away. They need to escape that army to survive.
Jetstone also marched a huge amount of troops into their city. Enough troops that they had planned to hold the 'visible' GK infantry and siege at Exposition Bridge. Unless they loose huge amounts of foot units Jetstone should still be a tough nut to crack.
bladestorm wrote:[speculation re: Stanley popping or appointing an heir]
So appoint Vurp as Heir Designate, since he is the sole remaining member of the Knights in Stanley's Service and lone hobgoblin survivor of tBfGK. Seems a similar setup to how Stanley had it handed to him. Then Stanley goes after Charlescomm to croak some more Archons for Wanda to Decrypt so Stanley can go back to hunting dwagons.
Remember that there is still a shroud of mystery over the fall of Saline IV and Stanley's assumption of the Overlordship. And Vurp knows something he had to lie to Parson about. I think it's unlikely that Stanley would pop or appoint an heir if he arranged Saline's murder. And Vurp is a natural ally, I would be surprised if he could be appointed as heir.
Lamech wrote:I think Parson is just ranting against Erfworld/War right now, not making good tactical choices. Same thing as throwing the sword away. That was a terrible idea. It should have been stashed until needed (or given to Ansom to pull out in battle. That would have given Ansom a sickening level of leadership presumably). He got the character development idiot ball grafted onto him.
There was a good bit of story hinting that the Sword of Ruthlessness had an impact on Parson's actions. Parson doesn't like being controlled. He also didn't like having to send people to their deaths despite the needs of GK for some units to die so that the side could continue or grow stronger. You can call it idiocy in exchange for character development, but I'm pretty sure I was the strongest proponent for "Parson holding the idiot ball" when that was a primary forums topic, and I don't see his throwing away of the sword that way.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby vintermann » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:31 am

Anyone else think Parson's argument about why he needs to be there sounds awfully fishy?

* His warlord bonus is really low.
* It's an additive bonus, combat in Erfworld is all about multipliers.
* They had Wanda with the pliers on the scene.
* They had Ossomer's bonus (they lost him, but Parson didn't know that when he decided to go).
* They had a horde of decrypted Archons (kinda vulnerable glass cannons after Ossomer turned, but Parson didn't know either that they would lose their bonus or that they would be attacked.)

I wonder if it's a rationalization for moral reasons (he wants to fight with the people he's commmanding) or whether there's some sort of thinkamancy-befuddling thing on him as well. Perhaps even fate magic, which forces him to come up with his own reasons to fulfill his fate? I do not buy the bonus argument, at least.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Oberon » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:10 am

vintermann wrote:I do not buy the bonus argument, at least.
I do. I find speculation that Parson is under magical control, other than the SPW spell, to be specious. And as I've said previously in this strip: Parson is doing what he can with what he has. It's not important that Parson's bonus isn't overwhelming, it's important that the units at Jetstone get all the boost they can possibly get.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby vintermann » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:17 am

Not at any price, no it isn't. The price would be high, even if everything had gone according to plan. He was guaranteed to alienate the Magic Kingdom, possibly with very bad consequences. He was quite likely to be captured or croaked (in fact, he's pretty much captured now).

Remember, the Magic Kingdom has hundreds of super-powerful casters. Look at Wanda. She's an ancient Croakamancer, having survived three sides, with unusual levels of combat experience. She's level 8. It's fair to assume very few non-MK casters have more experience than her.

Isaac, by comparison, is level 11.

If the Magic Kingdom decided a side was sufficiently bad that breaking their own rules was necessary, they could invade and reduce it to rubble in a turn. Even indirect sanctions from the Magic Kingdom (e.g, supplying enemies with support) could be devastating. This was not a calculated risk for Parson if it was only over a tiny warlord bonus.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby doran » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:32 am

Isaac is around 20,000 turns old (from the extra book material) - that's ~60 years in our terms, yet he isn't even greying - a strong indicator that units do not age or die from age, and any signs of age are only superficial signamancy of the units personality etc. After all in strategy games such as Civilization, you can have units from the stone age.
Image
MarbitChow wrote: Don't you get it yet? WE ARE THE MAGIC KINGDOM.
We're the people sitting around discussing our pet theories based on nomenclature, citing references, discussing ad nauseum while Parson finds out how it works.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby joosy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:04 am

0beron wrote:It was rushed and such because people were idiots to think it was the double that had fallen, so Rob was shutting them up. The "doubling me THIS way" quote was a slightly awkward attempt by Rob to confirm this, but people took that as the opposite way it was intended, so now he had to make it 100% clear so nobody would keep doubting.

Keep in mind that we are reading this a page at a slow pace and have time to make grand and baseless speculations about each pixel. When read in book form this will help guide the future speed reader to the obvious (to us) conclusion that the real Slately is dead.

Also, regarding the ability for Charlie to hack the hats. If the Stagemancy involves using the cosmic G-Strings as part of the process then that might be possible, but I doubt it. I think its simple conjuration/hat magic.

Charlie does not want ANY side to know that he can hack thinkagrams or have any other ability beyond what 'normal' thinkamancers can perform. The Great Minds That Think Alike know what he can do but still keep his secret even though revealing it would devastate trust in Charlie's services. I believe the GMTTA keep mum for now due to the double edgde sword of losing their own means to support themselves combined with the treat of the chaos that would ensue AND with the possibility of Charlie taking direct/indirect action against them. Having this ability improves Charlie's ability to be more effective with a smaller force. The more he knows about a sides needs/plans the better position he has to take advantage of them. Without that ability to spy in place he may not make enough schmuckers. Ergo, I don't think that he would be selling thinkagram transcripts.

oh.. almost forgot the wild speculation that appears to be a posting requirement here:

I would speculate that Charlie is aware of the GMTTA - i mean, a group of thinkamancers who have their own Thinkamancy proof building? Charlie can't let that slide. I would further speculate that Charlie has a spy within their ranks or has some other way to keep tabs on them.

Hopefully some of Charlie's backstory will be revealed at some point. I would guess that there is a prophecy regarding the Arkentools and that Charlie used to be part of the GMTTA or its precursor. The plan may have been to get Charlie attuned and then he would help them with phase 2. Charlie then betrayed them and struck out on his own trying to collect the rest of the Arkentools on his own or to just pursue his own love of schmuckers. I wonder what Charlie's endgame is, if any, and if he is trying to usurp the predictamancy surrounding the Arkentools OR is trying to shoehorn himself into it somehow.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby onlyme » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:15 am

Arky wrote:Yeah, I did. Oops. The presence of the Arkendish made me think we were watching Charlie use the Arkendish to spy on the battle.


I do not think that this is the arkendish. I'd guess that it is just a ornamental of a tower.
(Towers give a bonus to casters and buildings look like something that would have their function in our world. So if someone with Charlie's powers creates a city (or upgrades a tower), what would it look like? I'd say it definitely would have a satellite dish as ornamental, though as functional as the hooks in a butchery: it has no imminent use but without it it will not work anyway...).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby joosy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:21 am

onlyme wrote:
Arky wrote:Yeah, I did. Oops. The presence of the Arkendish made me think we were watching Charlie use the Arkendish to spy on the battle.

I do not think that this is the arkendish. I'd guess that it is just a ornamental of a tower.


Facepalm. <sigh>
The three arkentools that we have seen (the hammer, the pliers, the arkendish) all are 'real' images (modified for perspective, of course).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby onlyme » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:25 am

DoctorJest wrote:Sylvia just pointed out that if GK captures the garrison, then it would be GK's turn


You might want to be more careful about speaking about anyone's 'turn' in a turn-based world. Someone might think you mean that Jetstone's turn ended and GK's turn starts and not that it is still Jetstone's turn but now GK has the initiative as it finally can do something even off-turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby onlyme » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:30 am

joosy wrote:Charlie does not want ANY side to know that he can hack thinkagrams or have any other ability beyond what 'normal' thinkamancers can perform. The Great Minds That Think Alike know what he can do but still keep his secret even though revealing it would devastate trust in Charlie's services.


Why should it devastate trust in Charlie's services? Right now people will think twice if they pay Charlie for thinkagramm services as they must assume he could sell the info so someone else. Afterwards they know paying Charlie has (except price) no disadvantages over using any other thinkamancer.

So Charlie gains more customers but loses some chances to listen on people (as they will use non-thinkamancer methods of communicating), but thinkamancers will lose most of their use. Why hire a thinkamacer if it is not secret anyway?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Nnelg » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:55 am

Infidel wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Considering Sylvia's "burn it all" plan, I would say she would probably be a bad choice.
Why? The burn it all plan would have a high likelyhood of working. It perfectly ruthless, and we have people on here arguing that Parson was an idiot for dropping the ruthless sword.

Because the risk/reward balance is not in GK's favor.

RISK: GK can loose a lot of their best troops, including non-red dwagons; and also including Wanda, Jack and Parson if they aren't trapped in the MK.
REWARD: GK captures Spacerock one turn sooner than if they had waited for their turn so they could pull all inflammable units out of the garrison, and then burned it.

...Getting Spacerock one turn sooner just isn't worth the risk of losing so many units, now that Slately and Tramennis have escaped. It doesn't even matter what Jetstone can do, the fire can decimate GK by itself.


Lamech wrote:She is using the fire as a last resort, and its a good last resort.

Well, unless Charlie or Jillian shows up with an army before GK's next turn, the best thing to do would be to simply wait. Then when GK gets its turn, it bring in its army sitting outside Spacerock to flood the garrison with troops, or pull out everything but the red dwagons from the garrison and then burn it.


Oberon wrote:
Lamech wrote:I think Parson is just ranting against Erfworld/War right now, not making good tactical choices. Same thing as throwing the sword away. That was a terrible idea. It should have been stashed until needed (or given to Ansom to pull out in battle. That would have given Ansom a sickening level of leadership presumably). He got the character development idiot ball grafted onto him.
There was a good bit of story hinting that the Sword of Ruthlessness had an impact on Parson's actions. Parson doesn't like being controlled. He also didn't like having to send people to their deaths despite the needs of GK for some units to die so that the side could continue or grow stronger. You can call it idiocy in exchange for character development, but I'm pretty sure I was the strongest proponent for "Parson holding the idiot ball" when that was a primary forums topic, and I don't see his throwing away of the sword that way.

The Sword of Ruthlessness was an artifact of terrible corrupting power, like the One Ring. The only way to effectively use such a thing is to become as ruthless as it wants you to be. So do you hide it in the vaults of Minas Tirith, or throw it in the fires of Mount Doom?

Keeping the sword might of made him a better warlord, but throwing it away made him a better man.



Oberon wrote:Jetstone also marched a huge amount of troops into their city. Enough troops that they had planned to hold the 'visible' GK infantry and siege at Exposition Bridge. Unless they loose huge amounts of foot units Jetstone should still be a tough nut to crack.

That was a bridge, a chokepoint where an army can easily hold twice their number at bay... If the invaders cannot bypass it. Now Spacerock's shell has already been 'cracked': GK units are in the garrison, the heart of the city. Jetstone's troops are broken and leaderless, and if Slately stops to rally them he risks being captured as the garrison falls. It isn't worth the risk.


vintermann wrote:If the Magic Kingdom decided a side was sufficiently bad that breaking their own rules was necessary, they could invade and reduce it to rubble in a turn. Even indirect sanctions from the Magic Kingdom (e.g, supplying enemies with support) could be devastating. This was not a calculated risk for Parson if it was only over a tiny warlord bonus.

Maybe he wants to force the MK into this conflict.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby joosy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:59 am

onlyme wrote:
joosy wrote:Charlie does not want ANY side to know that he can hack thinkagrams or have any other ability beyond what 'normal' thinkamancers can perform. The Great Minds That Think Alike know what he can do but still keep his secret even though revealing it would devastate trust in Charlie's services.


Why should it devastate trust in Charlie's services? Right now people will think twice if they pay Charlie for thinkagramm services as they must assume he could sell the info so someone else. Afterwards they know paying Charlie has (except price) no disadvantages over using any other thinkamancer.

So Charlie gains more customers but loses some chances to listen on people (as they will use non-thinkamancer methods of communicating), but thinkamancers will lose most of their use. Why hire a thinkamacer if it is not secret anyway?


Its not just a loss in using Charlie for thinkagrams but that ANY thinkagram is not safe from Charlie. Once it is known that no thinkagram is safe, no side would use thinkagrams for anything other than casual conversation (Codes and ciphers may be created evntually). No one would trust Charlie as it would be known that he had been spying on them all along and using that to his advantage. That would result in some major trust issues with Charlie and possibly thinkamancers in general. Hat magicians would see a big surge in business, however.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby drachefly » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:32 am

Infidel wrote:I'm not seeing a suddenly aged Maggie as Parson rips into her. I'm seeing a closeup shot that just shows more detail.


Agreed.

Also agreed that exposing Charlie's ability to tap thinkagrams would not be particularly helpful to TGMtTA.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby effataigus » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:21 am

vintermann wrote:Anyone else think Parson's argument about why he needs to be there sounds awfully fishy?

* His warlord bonus is really low.
* It's an additive bonus, combat in Erfworld is all about multipliers.
* They had Wanda with the pliers on the scene.
* They had Ossomer's bonus (they lost him, but Parson didn't know that when he decided to go).
* They had a horde of decrypted Archons (kinda vulnerable glass cannons after Ossomer turned, but Parson didn't know either that they would lose their bonus or that they would be attacked.)

I wonder if it's a rationalization for moral reasons (he wants to fight with the people he's commmanding) or whether there's some sort of thinkamancy-befuddling thing on him as well. Perhaps even fate magic, which forces him to come up with his own reasons to fulfill his fate? I do not buy the bonus argument, at least.


Yep... though I think the comic has been hammering us with the idea that this was a poor decision done out of some moral tizzy that Parson is in. Kinda like a gentleman telling a lady to allow him to open the car door for her when they're both getting out of a burning car.

We have seen little to make us believe that plan A shouldn't have been to secure the dungeons (as they did) and drop the tower. If they did it without Wanda's big bonus, they can do it without Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:25 am

This comic has revealed however that Parson didn't really INTEND to go! It was a decision essentially forced on him by Maggie making him CWL. Yes, he made it out of moral reasons, but Maggie is the one who put him in the position of being forced to consider it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby effataigus » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:31 am

0beron wrote:This comic has revealed however that Parson didn't really INTEND to go! It was a decision essentially forced on him by Maggie making him CWL. Yes, he made it out of moral reasons, but Maggie is the one who put him in the position of being forced to consider it.


XD

Giving the opportunity =/= forcing someone to do something.

"No, your honor! He is the one that opened the liquor store. He forced me to consider robbing it!"

Nor is obligating someone to complete a task tantamount to being responsible for their actions in completing it. The government forces me to pay my taxes, but if I burn my house down for a tax break it's still arson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:37 am

I agree, but I wouldn't say that's the same thing as what occurred here. Maggie made a very expensive decision, which Parson could not practically undo because of the expense involved, and because it would require Stanley anyway. So given that he was unable to chose a different CWL, he picked his only remaining viable option, which was to make the most use of his pathetic bonus as possible to win a battle that is rapidly going pear-shaped. So yes, Maggie DID force him into this.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby effataigus » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:43 am

0beron wrote: only remaining viable option


A careful reread will show you that my argument began with the assumption that Parson's bonus helps GK less than the means of acquiring it hurts GK (for an average realization). Your argument (and Parson's) work under the opposite assumption by declaring commanding from afar to be un-viable.

We disagree, and that's fine.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:50 am

Commanding from afar IS unviable though, because Parson just said he has no plan whatsoever. So in the absence of a plan, all he has to offer his side is a better bonus. I agree that if Parson were his usual self complete with plan, then going there in person would have been stupid. But under the circumstances, I don't feel that Maggie left him with any other choice (effective choices that is)
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