Book 2 – Page 87

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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby fjolnir » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:59 pm

Someone earlier said it was strange that bunny was talking to don telepathically. I didn't think so because she needs to be in contact with the bat in order to provide her side with "realtime" data on the scene...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Lamech » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:47 pm

fjolnir wrote:Someone earlier said it was strange that bunny was talking to don telepathically. I didn't think so because she needs to be in contact with the bat in order to provide her side with "realtime" data on the scene...

Oh right, she's already hooked up with don via the bat. She can just add some voice over to the thinkagram the bat sends.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby junovalkyrie » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:07 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
junovalkyrie wrote:Not taking oslecamo's side here, BTW. I suspect that the answer is something like the mechanic effataigus mentioned where the cost to promote a CWL differs based on the circumstances.


Alas, that theory crashes on the fact that tactical genius Hamster would rather risk a LOT going trough the MK than simply geting a new CWL when GK has money to spare. He already burned a small fortune promoting a bunch of hobgobwins to heavies while promoting himself to field unit. He wouldn't have any trouble with burning yet more money to instantly get a new CWL on the frontline.


a) My main reason for suspecting that there is such a cost isn't Parson's failure to promote one of the units in the field. I'm approaching the issue more from a gamer's POV. The ability to switch CWLs on the fly without any associated costs would be extremely useful tactically/exploitable for reasons already pointed out (in a nutshell, it would allow you to use CWL's bonus wherever it was most needed at any given moment). While Erfworld's inhabitants may not have been so big on lateral thinking before the arrival of Lord Hamster, I'd be surprised if even they hadn't realized this.

b) There are other reasons that could explain why Parson did not promote another unit, such as the "politics" of GK, potential backlash from the Suggestion spell, etc. Or, heck, do we even know if a CWL is capable of promoting another unit to CWL in his place? It could be an ability that's reserved for the ruler of a side.

c) I'm not dismissing the possibility of a morale penalty or another mechanic - such as a requirement that you wait x turns after promoting a new CWL before being allowed to do so again - being the (a?) limiting factor for the ability to switch CWL's on the fly, and you made a compelling case for a morale penalty a few pages ago*. However, the existence of a monetary cost seems likely IMO for the simple reason that every other promotion for which we've been given information about the cost (garrison unit -> field unit, hobgobwin infantry -> hobgobwin heavy, non-heir -> heir) involved an expenditure of Schmuckers.

So, really, what's more likely? That's there's some extremely complex alghorytm that wildly fluctuates to the point sides with an empty treasury promote CWLs whitout trouble but a side that's filthy rich can't afford it? Or that it simply isn't money based?


If your side currently lacks a CWL, then you can choose one of your warlords to promote for free. Otherwise, it costs a set amount of Schmuckers.

"Extremely complex algorithm". :P

* Though while you mentioned that Maggie objected strenuously to Ansom's promotion and Vurp was also unsettled by it, it should be noted that there are counterexamples as well. Maggie's reaction to (and "encouragement" of) Parson's promotion as well as Jack's and Wanda's would seem to indicate a morale boost, if anything. So if there is a morale shift, it would seem to involve an algorithm at least as complex as the binary presented above.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Dante » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:52 am

I don't think Parson has the authority to promote a unit over himself to Chief Warlord. That's probably reserved for Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:14 am

junovalkyrie wrote:

a) My main reason for suspecting that there is such a cost isn't Parson's failure to promote one of the units in the field. I'm approaching the issue more from a gamer's POV. The ability to switch CWLs on the fly without any associated costs would be extremely useful tactically/exploitable for reasons already pointed out (in a nutshell, it would allow you to use CWL's bonus wherever it was most needed at any given moment). While Erfworld's inhabitants may not have been so big on lateral thinking before the arrival of Lord Hamster, I'd be surprised if even they hadn't realized this.

b) There are other reasons that could explain why Parson did not promote another unit, such as the "politics" of GK, potential backlash from the Suggestion spell, etc. Or, heck, do we even know if a CWL is capable of promoting another unit to CWL in his place? It could be an ability that's reserved for the ruler of a side.

c) I'm not dismissing the possibility of a morale penalty or another mechanic - such as a requirement that you wait x turns after promoting a new CWL before being allowed to do so again - being the (a?) limiting factor for the ability to switch CWL's on the fly, and you made a compelling case for a morale penalty a few pages ago*. However, the existence of a monetary cost seems likely IMO for the simple reason that every other promotion for which we've been given information about the cost (garrison unit -> field unit, hobgobwin infantry -> hobgobwin heavy, non-heir -> heir) involved an expenditure of Schmuckers.


a)I've never said it was "free". What I was pointing out is that there's not a single evidence that it costs smuckers, and we have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides doing it whitout trouble while extra-rich GK can't.

b)Please, this is Hamster we're talking about. He ordered harvesting of dwagons (Stanley's favorite units), spends money like crazy promoting units to heavies and then runs into the MK with the chance of creating a lethal feud with hundreds of casters. He stopped caring about politics long ago if he ever did. If money was the only limitation, he would've simply asked Maggie if there was any chance for magic backslash, if yes then how to mitigate it and then talked with Stanley about geting a new CWL.

c)That actually supports my point. Those promotions are explicitly stated to cost smuckers. Promoting to CWL is never stated to cost smuckers,even if we've seen it happen several times on the comic.

Even when the hobgobwins are promoted, Stanley mentally notes the money that is costing him. He never does so when he chooses a new CWL.


junovalkyrie wrote:
So, really, what's more likely? That's there's some extremely complex alghorytm that wildly fluctuates to the point sides with an empty treasury promote CWLs whitout trouble but a side that's filthy rich can't afford it? Or that it simply isn't money based?


If your side currently lacks a CWL, then you can choose one of your warlords to promote for free. Otherwise, it costs a set amount of Schmuckers.

"Extremely complex algorithm". :P


Say hello to Jillian "I don't care what anyone else thinks about me", that despite being with skintight finances goes around changing her CWL in whims (oh, shiny new guy, promote him to CWL!). Her current troops never seemed particularly enthusiastic with her ruler.

junovalkyrie wrote:* Though while you mentioned that Maggie objected strenuously to Ansom's promotion and Vurp was also unsettled by it, it should be noted that there are counterexamples as well. Maggie's reaction to (and "encouragement" of) Parson's promotion as well as Jack's and Wanda's would seem to indicate a morale boost, if anything. So if there is a morale shift, it would seem to involve an algorithm at least as complex as the binary presented above.

No, it is quite simple actually.

CWL dies in combat-morale penalty until a new one is promoted.
CWL is demoted-> morale penalty that isn't automatically removed when a new CWL is chosen.

That's why Don would rather send Caesar into suicide missions than simple demote him. If he did so, his side would take yet another major moral penalty, but a CWL falling in combat is an "honorable" death.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby junovalkyrie » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:19 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:a)I've never said it was "free".


Never meant to suggest otherwise. That wasn't meant as a standalone argument, it was simply meant (in tandem with B and C) to dispute the implication that I was basing my position solely on an assessment of Parson's motivations.

What I was pointing out is that there's not a single evidence that it costs smuckers, and we have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides doing it whitout trouble while extra-rich GK can't.


We have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides promoting a new CWL when their current CWL was present on their side (i.e. neither croaked, nor captured, nor turned)? Because if not, that doesn't support either of our positions over the other.

b)Please, this is Hamster we're talking about. He ordered harvesting of dwagons (Stanley's favorite units), spends money like crazy promoting units to heavies and then runs into the MK with the chance of creating a lethal feud with hundreds of casters. He stopped caring about politics long ago if he ever did. If money was the only limitation, he would've simply asked Maggie if there was any chance for magic backslash, if yes then how to mitigate it and then talked with Stanley about geting a new CWL.


Because Stanley has shown himself to be a man who is capable of being reasoned with.

Edit: To clarify: it's one thing to take initiative in your position as CWL. That's something that, based on what we know about the Suggestion spell, could be easily rationalized away by Stanley as "well, I appointed him CWL and he's proven himself capable in the past, I'm sure he knows what he's doing", especially given the cognitive dissonance involved in keeping around a 1,000 Schmucker-per-turn unit without making use of him. It's another thing altogether to essentially say to your ruler (who has shown himself to be insecure and emotionally immature and, oh BTW, only promoted you under a fragile form of magical coercion that may put a friend under risk if he becomes aware of or breaks it), "you made the wrong choice and we need to correct it ASAP".

c)That actually supports my point. Those promotions are explicitly stated to cost smuckers. Promoting to CWL is never stated to cost smuckers,even if we've seen it happen several times on the comic. Even when the hobgobwins are promoted, Stanley mentally notes the money that is costing him. He never does so when he chooses a new CWL.


a) And I repeat: "We have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides promoting a new CWL when their current CWL was still present on their side (i.e. neither croaked, nor captured, nor turned)? Because if not, that doesn't support either of our positions over the other."

b) Keeping a) in mind, saying that the Schmucker cost involved in other promotions supports your point strikes me as analogous to saying, "I've pressed the first three levers and gotten shocked each time. I have no explicit proof that pressing the fourth lever will shock me, so it probably won't."

Say hello to Jillian "I don't care what anyone else thinks about me", that despite being with skintight finances goes around changing her CWL in whims (oh, shiny new guy, promote him to CWL!). Her current troops never seemed particularly enthusiastic with her ruler.


When was it stated that Jillian had another CWL that needed to be demoted for Duncan to be made CWL?

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
junovalkyrie wrote:* Though while you mentioned that Maggie objected strenuously to Ansom's promotion and Vurp was also unsettled by it, it should be noted that there are counterexamples as well. Maggie's reaction to (and "encouragement" of) Parson's promotion as well as Jack's and Wanda's would seem to indicate a morale boost, if anything. So if there is a morale shift, it would seem to involve an algorithm at least as complex as the binary presented above.

No, it is quite simple actually.

CWL dies in combat-morale penalty until a new one is promoted.
CWL is demoted-> morale penalty that isn't automatically removed when a new CWL is chosen.


And that's my point. This is exactly as complex a rule as

No CWL on side at present -> no Schmucker cost to promote a new one
CWL on side at present -> Schmucker cost to promote a new one

And yet you dismissed the latter as an "extremely complex algorithm". Either you were being intellectually dishonest, exaggerating my position to make it sound absurd, or you misunderstood my position in the first place. (And I'll admit, it's probably my fault in the latter case. I'm not great at communicating in English.)

That's why Don would rather send Caesar into suicide missions than simple demote him. If he did so, his side would take yet another major moral penalty, but a CWL falling in combat is an "honorable" death.


Alternatively, since his side is cash-strapped, he cannot afford to promote a new CWL while the current one is still around.

P.S. While it may seem like I'm a major proponent of the Schmucker-cost position, I only think it's slightly more likely, on the basis of such a Schmuckers being involved in every other promotion we have information about the cost of. The morale-cost position (or some combination of both) seems quite viable as well. I'm mainly arguing because it seemed like you were misunderstanding/misrepresenting my position (in the previous post) and interpreting ambiguous evidence as supporting yours (in this post).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Kaed » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:22 pm

Since I think the forum community has worried at the chief warlord problem until the bloody marrow is showing and has little to show for it, let me introduce a new thing for you to all chew on.

It's about Bunny. Now, you all know about this 'secret war' going on now. And we also know that in general Thinkamancers tend to have a very easy time communicating with each other.

And then there is her unusual insistance on only speaking through her thinkamancy.

I think she's involved in the secret war... on Charlie's side.

Think about it. She's got her head in a G-string almost constantly, waiting to be tapped by Charlie. Either she's totally oblivious to her discipline's politics, or she's providing him with a free information link as often as she can. Before you claim that's against duty, let me point out Maggie is well capable of manipulating and lying to her own side to further secret goals.

And then there is that curious symbol we saw her wearing that was like the GMTTA but colored wrong...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby CelebrenIthil » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:10 pm

*logs in dusty account*

@The Slately double discussion: I think it might also be possible that Clonely might "decay" similarly to an uncroaked. Not thinking corpse-like decay, but maybe as time passes, doubles' intelligence and abilities starts to decrease, maybe their signamancy fade in some way or another too, and after a while they are a useless, weak, dumb-as-a-brick unit which finally disbands.

Just a thought.

That would be pretty heart-breaking to see for Jetstone, too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:06 am

junovalkyrie wrote:
What I was pointing out is that there's not a single evidence that it costs smuckers, and we have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides doing it whitout trouble while extra-rich GK can't.


We have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides promoting a new CWL when their current CWL was present on their side (i.e. neither croaked, nor captured, nor turned)? Because if not, that doesn't support either of our positions over the other.

We have Jillian's case, more on that later.

junovalkyrie wrote:
b)Please, this is Hamster we're talking about. He ordered harvesting of dwagons (Stanley's favorite units), spends money like crazy promoting units to heavies and then runs into the MK with the chance of creating a lethal feud with hundreds of casters. He stopped caring about politics long ago if he ever did. If money was the only limitation, he would've simply asked Maggie if there was any chance for magic backslash, if yes then how to mitigate it and then talked with Stanley about geting a new CWL.


Because Stanley has shown himself to be a man who is capable of being reasoned with.

He was reasoned in trying to summon the perfect Warlord for a small fortune, dwagon-farming, mining gemstones to make his side rich, shall I continue?

junovalkyrie wrote:Edit: To clarify: it's one thing to take initiative in your position as CWL. That's something that, based on what we know about the Suggestion spell, could be easily rationalized away by Stanley as "well, I appointed him CWL and he's proven himself capable in the past, I'm sure he knows what he's doing", especially given the cognitive dissonance involved in keeping around a 1,000 Schmucker-per-turn unit without making use of him.

No use? Hamster has been given plenty of use in the capital, playing the role of long-distance advisor to the frontline troops, researching how Erfworld works (did you know dwagons can't fly with heavies?) and coming up with stuff like safe dwagon-farming.

junovalkyrie wrote:It's another thing altogether to essentially say to your ruler (who has shown himself to be insecure and emotionally immature and, oh BTW, only promoted you under a fragile form of magical coercion that may put a friend under risk if he becomes aware of or breaks it), "you made the wrong choice and we need to correct it ASAP".

Call Stanley insecure and emotinally immature all you want, he's still the ruler who gathered a top quality retinue of advisors, keeps his sides finances top-notch and has more arkentools under his command than anybody else.

And he wouldn't have to say he made the wrong choice. He would've just needed to say something along the lines of "I found a loophole that can get us out of this mess, you just need now to promote a CWL on the frontline".

junovalkyrie wrote:
c)That actually supports my point. Those promotions are explicitly stated to cost smuckers. Promoting to CWL is never stated to cost smuckers,even if we've seen it happen several times on the comic. Even when the hobgobwins are promoted, Stanley mentally notes the money that is costing him. He never does so when he chooses a new CWL.


a) And I repeat: "We have plenty of examples of cash-strapped sides promoting a new CWL when their current CWL was still present on their side (i.e. neither croaked, nor captured, nor turned)? Because if not, that doesn't support either of our positions over the other."

Jillian FTW!

junovalkyrie wrote:b) Keeping a) in mind, saying that the Schmucker cost involved in other promotions supports your point strikes me as analogous to saying, "I've pressed the first three levers and gotten shocked each time. I have no explicit proof that pressing the fourth lever will shock me, so it probably won't."

Considering the three first levers had warnings that it would shock me, and the fourth doesn't, then yes I'm feeling confident on my odds.

junovalkyrie wrote:
Say hello to Jillian "I don't care what anyone else thinks about me", that despite being with skintight finances goes around changing her CWL in whims (oh, shiny new guy, promote him to CWL!). Her current troops never seemed particularly enthusiastic with her ruler.


When was it stated that Jillian had another CWL that needed to be demoted for Duncan to be made CWL?

Because Jillian nominated a CWL as soon as she had her first batch of warlords. Then she captured the lv6 dude whitout any casualities on her side. Then she promoted him. Nowhere was it said her first CWL ever bited it, which means he had to be demoted to make room for the new one.

junovalkyrie wrote:And that's my point. This is exactly as complex a rule as

No CWL on side at present -> no Schmucker cost to promote a new one
CWL on side at present -> Schmucker cost to promote a new one

And yet you dismissed the latter as an "extremely complex algorithm". Either you were being intellectually dishonest, exaggerating my position to make it sound absurd, or you misunderstood my position in the first place. (And I'll admit, it's probably my fault in the latter case. I'm not great at communicating in English.)

What you're missing is that GK has LOTS of money. Yet they can't do it.
Jillian barely has enough to feed her troops. And she changes CWLs on whims.

There's no visible correlation whatsoever between a side's treasury and their ability to switch CWLs. Thus the cost has to be something else.

junovalkyrie wrote:
That's why Don would rather send Caesar into suicide missions than simple demote him. If he did so, his side would take yet another major moral penalty, but a CWL falling in combat is an "honorable" death.


Alternatively, since his side is cash-strapped, he cannot afford to promote a new CWL while the current one is still around.

He can afford to send his warlords and troops in suicide missions just for the sake of status, so he can't be that cash-strapped (he had enough left to make a substancial loan to Jetstone after all).

junovalkyrie wrote:P.S. While it may seem like I'm a major proponent of the Schmucker-cost position, I only think it's slightly more likely, on the basis of such a Schmuckers being involved in every other promotion we have information about the cost of. The morale-cost position (or some combination of both) seems quite viable as well. I'm mainly arguing because it seemed like you were misunderstanding/misrepresenting my position (in the previous post) and interpreting ambiguous evidence as supporting yours (in this post).


And yet again I point at Jillian, who shows the other side of the scale by changing CWLs despite barely having money to sustain her side. It's a key point on my side, that you seem to purposedly ignore just because.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Oberon » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:28 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Say hello to Jillian "I don't care what anyone else thinks about me", that despite being with skintight finances goes around changing her CWL in whims (oh, shiny new guy, promote him to CWL!).
Wait, what? Jillian promoted Duncan after turning him. Not on a whim, but because her newly reconstituted FAQ only had low level warlords, and Duncan was a respectable level 6. And that's assuming that she even had a CWL before Duncan, but I'd assume that even a level 1 is better than none at all. This doesn't seem at all like a whim to me, but a solid strategic decision which is best for the side. When else has she changed her CWL?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:00 am

Agreeing with Oberon. Jillian's promotion of a Level 6 to CWL would be worth a substantial cost.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby effataigus » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:28 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:*logs in dusty account*

@The Slately double discussion: I think it might also be possible that Clonely might "decay" similarly to an uncroaked. Not thinking corpse-like decay, but maybe as time passes, doubles' intelligence and abilities starts to decrease, maybe their signamancy fade in some way or another too, and after a while they are a useless, weak, dumb-as-a-brick unit which finally disbands.


Alzheimers is pretty unsettling when you knew the person at full glory. I don't even want to speculate how terrifying it would be to see it develop in someone who can end you and all of your loved ones with a paranoid thought.

On a happier note, welcome back!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby jkosta » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:48 pm

I don't see anything in the archives indicating that she named one of her warlords Chief before Duncan. I'm not saying she hadn't; that would be a logical assumption. But it's entirely possible she chose not to do so, too.

And I agree that changing your CWL from a level 2 to a level 6 is almost certainly worth the unknown-to-us cost. Especially if the cost depends on the level of your current CWL.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby bladestorm » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:29 pm

jkosta wrote:I don't see anything in the archives indicating that she named one of her warlords Chief before Duncan. I'm not saying she hadn't; that would be a logical assumption. But it's entirely possible she chose not to do so, too.

And I agree that changing your CWL from a level 2 to a level 6 is almost certainly worth the unknown-to-us cost. Especially if the cost depends on the level of your current CWL.

And if you just got a large lump sum of Schmuckers from raiding an enemy city.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Lamech » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:10 pm

Its possible that naming chief warlord has some sort of cool down. So a poor side can name a new CW, without spending too much cash, but they cannot switch them at will.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 87

Postby Nnelg » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:04 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
junovalkyrie wrote:Edit: To clarify: it's one thing to take initiative in your position as CWL. That's something that, based on what we know about the Suggestion spell, could be easily rationalized away by Stanley as "well, I appointed him CWL and he's proven himself capable in the past, I'm sure he knows what he's doing", especially given the cognitive dissonance involved in keeping around a 1,000 Schmucker-per-turn unit without making use of him.
No use? Hamster has been given plenty of use in the capital, playing the role of long-distance advisor to the frontline troops, researching how Erfworld works (did you know dwagons can't fly with heavies?) and coming up with stuff like safe dwagon-farming.

And what among these is obviously useful in Stanley's eyes?


oslecamo2_temp wrote:
junovalkyrie wrote:It's another thing altogether to essentially say to your ruler (who has shown himself to be insecure and emotionally immature and, oh BTW, only promoted you under a fragile form of magical coercion that may put a friend under risk if he becomes aware of or breaks it), "you made the wrong choice and we need to correct it ASAP".
Call Stanley insecure and emotinally immature all you want, he's still the ruler who gathered a top quality retinue of advisors, keeps his sides finances top-notch and has more arkentools under his command than anybody else.

And he wouldn't have to say he made the wrong choice. He would've just needed to say something along the lines of "I found a loophole that can get us out of this mess, you just need now to promote a CWL on the frontline".

But merely questioning his decision is implying that he made the wrong choice.

Besides, him changing his mind would snap any suggestion spell that remains over him. And Maggie would have no choice but to take all the backlash onto herself. When she gets hit, even if she survives Stanley would notice her incapacitation, and order her to tell him what's going on. When he finds out Maggie used a suggestion spell on him, he'll disband her on the spot.
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