Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby Arky » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:54 pm

OK, Haffaton Wanda is really, really, REALLY batshit insane. Not merely batshit insane. I would say that Jillian is a complete headcase for starting a relationship with this woman and taking her back to FAQ, but she's clearly got a very good excuse e.g. being tortured until turned loopy.

The thing is that she's not even being tortured for information. Wanda could have already obtained the location of FAQ from the uncroaked. There's nothing of substance Jillian can tell Wanda that Wanda couldn't have obtained in two minutes flat in another way. This is all about Wanda's sheer crazy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby Nnelg » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:12 am

Arky wrote:The thing is that she's not even being tortured for information. Wanda could have already obtained the location of FAQ from the uncroaked. There's nothing of substance Jillian can tell Wanda that Wanda couldn't have obtained in two minutes flat in another way. This is all about Wanda's sheer crazy.

Not necessarily. Remember, these are uncroaked, not decrypted. It's unclear how much if any of their memories remain intact, even if they could follow an order as complex as "place the location of your former homeland on this map".


But yeah, Wanda's getting way overboard on this.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby elecampane » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:13 am

Whispri wrote:
0beron wrote:
Whispri wrote:The Side may already be gone at that, the stories told of Faq (and yes, the memories relating to them) in Books One and Two could have been fabricated after all.

I find that HIGHLY unlikely, if not altogether impossible. While it'd be possible to implant false memories of the actual Fall, fabricating Wanda's (apparently) long time with FAQ would not be feasible. And even if it were, where would her prediction about wielding a 'Tool come from? How could she have contacted Stanley? And there is also the fact that Haffaton clearly falls before FAQ, and by a pretty respectable time period as well.

You uh, do realise that the number of surviving people from old Faq can be counted on one hand, right? There's almost nothing to fake. As for your questions, the Magick Kingdom and by Thinkagram. As for your theory regarding the timing of Haffaton's end, Jillian is currently Level 7. By the time of TBfGK, she'll be Level 9. And as can be seen here, Artemis hopped from 7 to 8 in less than five hundred Turns despite spending most of that time sitting around doing Boop all. Jillian kills things all the time, so she [i]really[/] should Level far faster than Artemis did. You see where I'm going with this?

Somehow I don't see this being implanted memory: the whole beutiful emotional shade of this update would be worthless then.
The same update proves that while Wanda was on FAQ's side, things were quiet at least for a while.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby Whispri » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:56 am

elecampane wrote:Somehow I don't see this being implanted memory: the whole beutiful emotional shade of this update would be worthless then.
The same update proves that while Wanda was on FAQ's side, things were quiet at least for a while.

a)Jack's mind is by his own admittance, in tatters, b) That conversation could easily have occured elsewhere if it matters.

Even if the conversation did occur and did so where and when the madman thinks it does, all it proves is that Jillian was outside the Capital while Wanda was inside it, for a period of time of indeterminate length.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby Arky » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:12 am

Whispri wrote:
elecampane wrote:Somehow I don't see this being implanted memory: the whole beutiful emotional shade of this update would be worthless then.
The same update proves that while Wanda was on FAQ's side, things were quiet at least for a while.

a)Jack's mind is by his own admittance, in tatters, b) That conversation could easily have occured elsewhere if it matters.

Even if the conversation did occur and did so where and when the madman thinks it does, all it proves is that Jillian was outside the Capital while Wanda was inside it, for a period of time of indeterminate length.


Upon the solemn ramparts of old Faq, they had talked about love.

"You know my position, Jack Snipe," said the Lady Firebaugh. In those days, "Jack" (as in "Knave") was his title as well as his name. And though as Casters they were equals at the philosophical feet of King Banhammer, she'd always kept the habit of calling him by his entire moniker.

Unless Jack is so crazy as to imagine the whole thing, there's no real way this conversation could have taken place elsewhere and the wording of it certainly implies that Wanda was in FAQ a while, long enough for there to be a habit she'd "always kept".

I can't really see Rob going down the "Jack was imagining the whole thing" route for this conversation either. It would be lame, and there hasn't been a single hint elsewhere of Jack having false memories.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:33 am

Whispri wrote:You uh, do realise that the number of surviving people from old Faq can be counted on one hand, right? There's almost nothing to fake.

"Nothing?" Let's run through a list of things that'd have to be faked:
  • A Jillian/Wanda love affair.
  • Jack's longtime crush on Wanda.
  • Wanda's familiarity with Jack and Marie (by this I mean she is friends with them, and is close with Jack)
  • Stanley's attack on FAQ
All of these would be hard to fake, especially for someone who IS NOT A PROPER THINKAMANCER. The first 2 involve Love, which is confirmed as a "power" that no magical school has been able to claim mastery of, and the 4th one involves giving false information to more people than just surviving FAQ units. And there is also the absence of Haffaton as I mentioned, which I don't feel can be explained away as easily as you tried to. Haffaton must be in territory where GK is right now, because we know it has gobbled up all of FAQ's neighbors except Transylvito. GK and Transylvito are in opposite directions from FAQ's perspective, so it's impossible that Haffaton doesn't occupy GK territory as we know it.

And finally, there is this:
Arky wrote:there hasn't been a single hint elsewhere of Jack having false memories.
Jack is a FOOLAMANCER. His whole JOB/study focuses around observing the world as it is, and how he and others perceive it, so he can make better illusions. If anyone would fail to be fooled by false memories, it'd be a Master-Class Foolamancer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby bladestorm » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:01 am

0beron wrote:
Whispri wrote:You uh, do realise that the number of surviving people from old Faq can be counted on one hand, right? There's almost nothing to fake.

"Nothing?" Let's run through a list of things that'd have to be faked:
  • A Jillian/Wanda love affair.
  • Jack's longtime crush on Wanda.
  • Wanda's familiarity with Jack and Marie (by this I mean she is friends with them, and is close with Jack)
  • Stanley's attack on FAQ
All of these would be hard to fake, especially for someone who IS NOT A PROPER THINKAMANCER. The first 2 involve Love, which is confirmed as a "power" that no magical school has been able to claim mastery of, and the 4th one involves giving false information to more people than just surviving FAQ units. And there is also the absence of Haffaton as I mentioned, which I don't feel can be explained away as easily as you tried to. Haffaton must be in territory where GK is right now, because we know it has gobbled up all of FAQ's neighbors except Transylvito. GK and Transylvito are in opposite directions from FAQ's perspective, so it's impossible that Haffaton doesn't occupy GK territory as we know it.

If we use the geographical analogy of TV being Vegas and GK being in the Sierra mountains, Haffaton could be all of Canada, expanding southward. They might not have gotten to GK yet. We don't have enough information about Haffaton at this point to determine where they actually cover, or how long GK has been a site. For all we really know, GK could have been rebuilt from the Razed Diecast.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby Kreistor » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:14 pm

This is getting drawn out far too long. This didn't develop any character that we were not already aware of. Time to move on with the story. Please?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby bladestorm » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:30 pm

Kreistor wrote:This is getting drawn out far too long. This didn't develop any character that we were not already aware of. Time to move on with the story. Please?

Sounds like somebody needs a nap.

We are getting to see just how far gone Wanda is, and this scene may be setting up a parallel between Wanda's torture at being a Haffaton unit and Jillian's torture in the box. The peace at the end is such a magnificent relief, whether it is hearing that bird chirp, or finding a place of belonging in Faq.

We are also getting some insight into some of the mechanics, such as units having senses other than sight that can be manipulated. If these are Croakamancer spells, this gives us a lot more insight into what a Croakamancer can do, making them less of a one-trick pony. There has got to be some heavy negative mods to combat if you have your sense of sight and hearing removed.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:43 pm

bladestorm wrote:...units having senses other than sight that can be manipulated. If these are Croakamancer spells, this gives us a lot more insight into what a Croakamancer can do...

I would suspect these aren't exclusively Croakamancy spells, Wanda is probably blending various schools, with the focal one being Turnamancy. My guesses:
  • Hunger & Thirst: Croakamancy/Turnamancy
  • Pain: Shockamancy
  • Blindness/Deafness/Screaming: Thinkamancy/Foolamancy
  • Cold: Any of the above
I suspect this whole process is Turnamancy, but Wanda's multi-casting talent is allowing her to add additional effects from other schools, the same way Rhyme-o-mancy can function as a sort of "metamagic" application for all other schools.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby Kreistor » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:24 pm

bladestorm wrote:Sounds like somebody needs a nap.


Personal attack. Yaaaaawn.

We are getting to see just how far gone Wanda is, and this scene may be setting up a parallel between Wanda's torture at being a Haffaton unit and Jillian's torture in the box.


No, we already knew that Wanda was "off" thanks to her looks and previous use of the device in previous texts.

And no, it may not be her will in this. She is under orders from Haffaton, and may be no more "gone" than previously or later, since she must do as others order her. Free will in Erfworld is in short supply, so drawing any conclusions about Wanda's personality is a waste of thought.

We are also getting some insight into some of the mechanics, such as units having senses other than sight that can be manipulated.


Foolamancy wouldn't work if it could only affect sight. Sound has to be a part, but we know touch is not. We know Dittomancy creates real things that can be touched. And plants gave off smells as gases that could do damage. Which specific sense were you unaware could not be manipulated, exactly? I'll find it somewhere earlier in the comic for you that you missed, just to prove there's nothing new here.

If these are Croakamancer spells


That's a question, not an answer. All the comic did was delay that answer.

And what about this device tells you it involves Croakamancy? It's Foolamancy. Powerful Foolamancy, but nothing more than that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby effataigus » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:46 pm

Kreistor wrote:This is getting drawn out far too long. This didn't develop any character that we were not already aware of. Time to move on with the story. Please?


This was my first reaction too, but it is at least well-written filler!

The "heals fully at dawn" thing removes most of my empathy for Erfworlder physical anguish. If you remove the fear of being crippled, then there is very little reason for an organism to feel pain from anything short of near-deadly experiences. In my experience, the only pain that REALLY gets to me is the one that convinces me that I'll never be whole again afterward.

Mostly, this seems an excellent portrayal of something that I wouldn't normally choose to read about. I'd whine more, but it has apparently engrossed some of the other readers, so I'll just wait for the story to get back to the stuff I do get fired up about.

If this is setup for Jillian caving to Wanda and betraying Faq (even if Wanda just uses that info to betray Haffaton), then I totally understand... Jillian couldn't be turned into a traitor lightly or off-camera without changing (at least my) perception of her. If this is just meant to demonstrate how headstrong/brave Jillian is to resist crazy-face old-Wanda, then it's probably wasted effort on me, as that would be nothing new about Jillian AND it wouldn't jive with Wanda's overconfidence in her leash on Jillian during TBfGK.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby wrecan » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:26 am

Speculation of the week!

Spoiler: show
I think a bunch of casters from FAQ lead a raid to rescue Jillian with the tacit approval of Banhammer. With Hubble's Lookamancy to find her, Marie's Predictamancy to put together a plan, and a combo of Jack Snipe's Foolamancy and Rusty's Shockamancy, I think they will bust in, grab Jillian, and abduct Wanda. They discover Wanda's in a sort-of two-way hookup with Olive. They sever the connection, which sends Olive into madness. Betsy Murgatroyd does some fancy healomancy to restore some semblance of sanity to Wanda.

With Haffaton suddenly bereft of its two most powerful casters, their enemies turn on it and make short work of them, leading FAQ to believe they have averted disaster by abducting Wanda. One of Haffaton's neighbors is Gobwin Knob and it is in the final war against Haffaton that a lowly piker named Stanley ascends to Warlord, discovers the Arkenhammer, and is contacted by a treacherous Wanda...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby Kaed » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:28 am

Kreistor wrote:lots of arguing and blatant assumptions


Uh, hold on. Kreistor, I'm trying to remember a time when your forum replies were not either complaints about content and pacing or long streams of quotes with arguements against them.

Only I can't. =/

Maybe you should work on your debate skills a little bit, because I don't think you've thought all your points out. For instance...

I'm not sure why you think all this could only be foolamancy. "Powerful Foolamancy" at that. Wanda shows skill in many kinds of magic, but it has always been out in the open that only croakamancy really interests her. At best, she is a novice in many other disciplines, because she is not driven to contemplate and practice them.

Croakamancy involves the manipulation of living tissue, repairing it and bringing it back to a rough semblance of life. It's not hard to speculate that it could also be used to DAMAGE it, by, say, destroying ones eyes and ears ability to function?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby bladestorm » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:58 pm

Kaed wrote:Croakamancy involves the manipulation of living tissue, repairing it and bringing it back to a rough semblance of life. It's not hard to speculate that it could also be used to DAMAGE it, by, say, destroying ones eyes and ears ability to function?

I'd argue that it mostly involves manipulation of no-longer-living tissue, but that's a minor nitpick. I do concur that Croakamancy would be much more interesting if, in addition to adding Movement to unliving flesh to make it have a semblance of life, it could also be used to necrotize living flesh, weaken the body, and deprive the senses. It weakens the living and strengthens the dead. This would give Croakamancers much more use in combat than increasing troop numbers from fallen warriors (from either side of the conflict). I am all for versatility among casters.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby Kaed » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:28 pm

effataigus wrote:The "heals fully at dawn" thing removes most of my empathy for Erfworlder physical anguish. If you remove the fear of being crippled, then there is very little reason for an organism to feel pain from anything short of near-deadly experiences. In my experience, the only pain that REALLY gets to me is the one that convinces me that I'll never be whole again afterward.


So... inflicting horrible agony and psychological trauma is OK, as long as it has no lasting physical effects?

Interesting philosophy. >_>

bladestorm wrote:I'd argue that it mostly involves manipulation of no-longer-living tissue, but that's a minor nitpick. I do concur that Croakamancy would be much more interesting if, in addition to adding Movement to unliving flesh to make it have a semblance of life, it could also be used to necrotize living flesh, weaken the body, and deprive the senses. It weakens the living and strengthens the dead. This would give Croakamancers much more use in combat than increasing troop numbers from fallen warriors (from either side of the conflict). I am all for versatility among casters.


Well yeah. It's always kind of bothered me how broad Erfworld disciplines tend to, while Croakamancy seems to do only ONE THING. I think we're just not seeing some of its other abilities until now.

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*boggles*
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby 0beron » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:34 pm

I don't think he was saying its "acceptable", rather that his personal experience/mentality is that he is only scared by things which he thinks might permanently injure him physically. Many people are similar, they push through pain because they believe it will get better and pass. Athletes are a prime example.
So I think what he could be subconsciously implying is that this could in part explain Jillian's resilience. If she believes she is under little risk of being permanently damaged, she has little to fear.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby bladestorm » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:47 pm

Kaed wrote:
effataigus wrote:The "heals fully at dawn" thing removes most of my empathy for Erfworlder physical anguish. If you remove the fear of being crippled, then there is very little reason for an organism to feel pain from anything short of near-deadly experiences. In my experience, the only pain that REALLY gets to me is the one that convinces me that I'll never be whole again afterward.


So... inflicting horrible agony and psychological trauma is OK, as long as it has no lasting physical effects?

Interesting philosophy. >_>

bladestorm wrote:I'd argue that it mostly involves manipulation of no-longer-living tissue, but that's a minor nitpick. I do concur that Croakamancy would be much more interesting if, in addition to adding Movement to unliving flesh to make it have a semblance of life, it could also be used to necrotize living flesh, weaken the body, and deprive the senses. It weakens the living and strengthens the dead. This would give Croakamancers much more use in combat than increasing troop numbers from fallen warriors (from either side of the conflict). I am all for versatility among casters.


Well yeah. It's always kind of bothered me how broad Erfworld disciplines tend to, while Croakamancy seems to do only ONE THING. I think we're just not seeing some of its other abilities until now.

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*boggles*

There are also some disciplines that we haven't seen much of what they do. Predictamancy seems as much of a single use discipline as Croakamancy's Uncroaking. Thinkamancy and Dirtamancy have both been shown to have a wide variety of uses. I am not sure about Shockamancy, though. It could just have two uses (flash mob stun and attack blast) and different forms of those uses. Lots of speculation on what the disciplines could do, but definite demonstrations of versatility for most of GK's casters aside from Wanda. Arguments could be made that these abilities are a different discipline and Wanda is just multitalented in many disciplines, but Sizemore is noted for being incapable of (though highly interest in) other disciplines. He's able to make golems, tunnel, find gems, reinforce walls, downgrade all of GK to a level 1 city in a matter of seconds, make garden walls, crap golem nukes, etc. If Dirtamancy had the same variety that Crokamancy does, he'd be limited to just making golems.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby effataigus » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:14 pm

0beron wrote:I don't think he was saying its "acceptable", rather that his personal experience/mentality is that he is only scared by things which he thinks might permanently injure him physically.
...
So I think what he could be subconsciously implying is that this could in part explain Jillian's resilience. If she believes she is under little risk of being permanently damaged, she has little to fear.

Indeed!

Yep, not trying to imply I enjoy dunking my cat in the bath just because she survives the ordeal (of course, I'm guessing she'd also make sure I don't enjoy it).

The original post was longer... in it I speculated on whether Erfworlders would have evolved to have a dulled sense of pain with less reason for it and just as much reason against it (in large quantities it hinders your ability to fight). Then I dismissed my own argument on the grounds that genetic evolution relies upon genetics, and we've seen very little to suggest that Erfworld has that mechanic beyond "need a gobwin to make a gobwin." Anyway, it was too long, so I cut it back :D

However, we have seen a lot of warriors doing heroic stuff while missing limbs and dwagons flying over a lake nonstop overnight with ribs showing... I wouldn't be surprised if Erfworlders indeed feel less pain than stupidworlders.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 042

Postby bladestorm » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:46 pm

There may be no mechanics in place that indicate a wound hindering combat performance. It may be possible to have a unit fighting just as well fully intact as if it were missing both legs and one arm. Combat score stays the same. Archer got nailed with an arrow that took him to the ground, and still managed to launch an attack in a high arch that impaled Artemis.
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