Book 2 – Page 88

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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby wrecan » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:49 pm

Kaed wrote:I think I'm a clone now

Bravo!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby asparagus » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:54 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
asparagus wrote:There's also the problem that with a King's double, a chief warlord, and several casters why is Cubbins needed for leadership?
He's not. But as one of the few remaining units left in the garrison (the main force is in the city right now), if he dies, the garrison falls, and if the garrison falls, all remaining units in the city are auto-captured.


Thanks. That's actually a lot clearer. I seem to be a bit slower now than I used to be.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Lamech » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:55 pm

The king is dead, all hail the new King! Hail, King Ansom the Confused! But that would explain how Parson gets through the portal: they are asked to come, there by the king!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby effataigus » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:55 pm

Kaed wrote:
fehler wrote:Is there a function to hold a turn open indefinitely? Time passes, turns end, doubles cease to exist. I'm sure if there was a side out there that didn't want to end their turn in the past, it would have been tried by now. Or is that "lateral thinking"?

You don't really want Jetstone to be That Guy, do you?

I wouldn't fault them for being that guy... the lives of most everyone they know are on the line... tis no game to them!
MarbitChow wrote:There was an in-depth discussion about that very question a while ago. Some argued that the side would automatically end at dusk...


I missed that argument last time it came up... probably not right though, since that would mean that Charlescomm (or GK if CComm isn't around) could effectively nullify enemy turns within a given hex by waiting till dusk. It would then already be dusk in that hex, and sides with subsequent turns would be forced to auto-end their turns as well.
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asparagus wrote:I have to say I thought Cubbins was killed off partly to prove that the likeable can die. And he gave it his all when he went, so really there should be no encore. For him to have survived even to this extent damages the believability of the story for me.

Well it has already been stated that falling has essentially random outcomes. Height factors in marginally, but the chance of being croaked, incapacitated, or 100% ok are the same for any fall.


There is something a lil weird going on. My reading of this strip is that Cubbins is important for being alive and out of view rather than for providing leadership. That said, it seems that the chances of Cubbins being the only person of all of those people on that tower that ended up incapacitated and out of view would be pretty small. It is possible that Tram is just overlooking those others that have survived in the rubble because Clonely didn't mention them, because its not important for *their* understanding of Erfworld, and because he doesn't want to dither too much when action is needed.

Several things that might someday be revealed that would tie all of these observations together:
1. Cubbins pulled a propeller beanie and an airbag out of a hat... i.e. he survived because he's different, not because he's lucky.
2. He survived because he has plot armor... a la Sylvia, bestowed by dint of forum love. We'll know for sure that we have this power when that random falling soldier we obsessed about and named is revealed to have survived and been promoted in combat.
3. He survived because he has plot armor of a different sort... bestowed by Fate because Parson will need a hat magician in his battle against Charlie, and either a decrypted caster in charge of communications would be a liability or a decrypted caster can't cast.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:59 pm

wrecan wrote:As for Cubbins, I suspect he is going to be captured, and possibly turned. Parson needs a Charlie-proof mode of communication and I think hat magic is exactly what he needs.


In the interests of completionism, I would like to point out that there's another possibility for that to happen. The alliance between Jetstone and GK that Trem, and maybe Parson, were hinting at way back when I still had some natural teeth. It's been a while and my memory isn't what it used to be.

Anyway, since both Parson and Trem were too shy to express their feelings for each other, the situation rapidly, and likely irreversibly, degenerated into combat. So an alliance between their sides is not the sanest bet one could make, possibly.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby effataigus » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:06 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Anyway, since both Parson and Trem were too shy to express their feelings for each other, the situation rapidly, and likely irreversibly, degenerated into combat. So an alliance between their sides is not the sanest bet one could make, possibly.


Eh, I could see Charlie going off the deep end in light of recent developments and giving the two sides common cause enough to overcome the deep layers of vitriol that now lay between them.

Someday I'll make a pilgrimage to your grave-site in my grandchild-powered wheelchair and leave a printed copy of the book 2 on your tombstone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:09 pm

effataigus wrote:Someday I'll make a pilgrimage to your grave-site in my grandchild-powered wheelchair and leave a printed copy of the book 2 on your tombstone.


Aww, that is so sweet, thanks! Only the dead see the end of Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby wrecan » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
wrecan wrote:As for Cubbins, I suspect he is going to be captured, and possibly turned. Parson needs a Charlie-proof mode of communication and I think hat magic is exactly what he needs.


In the interests of completionism, I would like to point out that there's another possibility for that to happen. The alliance between Jetstone and GK that Trem, and maybe Parson, were hinting at way back when I still had some natural teeth. It's been a while and my memory isn't what it used to be.

Sure. That could happen. Actually, it could happen quite easily:
  • Charlie trades decrypted archon for money
  • Tramennis becomes heir
  • Lloyd, having expended the last of his juice, lets Slately2 dissolve
  • Tramennis and force fight their way through decrypted to the portal.
  • Ace Hardware steps through the portal to deliver a message. Parson is invited to a parley with King Tramennis. Since he's an invited guest, the casters are less concerned about violating MK neutrality. Appropriate safeguards are in place to ensure it's no trap. Heck, the Tramennis-Parson parley might even occur in Isaac's secure thinkspace.
  • Tramennis and Parson chat. Truce achieved.

What would the terms of the truce be?
I imagine Parson needs access to Cubbins' hat magic. GK agrees to withdraw from JS and they ally, which is good because after JS ends turn, Haggar gets to go. GK agrees not to decrypt any more Jetstone units. GK agrees to disavow Toolism (which was getting old as an anti-Charlie ploy anyway.) JS offers its support against their true enemy which can be FAQ (if Tramennis is serious about getting his brother back, which he might be) or Charlie, probably Charlie. Which sets us up for Book 3, in which Charlie calls in every favor he has to stop Hamster, Jetstone, and the Great Minds that Think Alike.

I have no illusions of this being the end result. in fact, I think it very unlikely, mostly because it means we start Book 3 with Charlie being the underdog. (Of course, Book 2 started with Jetstone being the underdog, so there's precedent.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby wrecan » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:13 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Aww, that is so sweet, thanks! Only the dead see the end of Erfworld.

And now we know what awaits us in the City of Heroes!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby bladestorm » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:32 pm

wrecan wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
wrecan wrote:As for Cubbins, I suspect he is going to be captured, and possibly turned. Parson needs a Charlie-proof mode of communication and I think hat magic is exactly what he needs.


In the interests of completionism, I would like to point out that there's another possibility for that to happen. The alliance between Jetstone and GK that Trem, and maybe Parson, were hinting at way back when I still had some natural teeth. It's been a while and my memory isn't what it used to be.

Sure. That could happen. Actually, it could happen quite easily:
  • Charlie trades decrypted archon for money
  • Tramennis becomes heir
  • Lloyd, having expended the last of his juice, lets Slately2 dissolve
  • Tramennis and force fight their way through decrypted to the portal.
  • Ace Hardware steps through the portal to deliver a message. Parson is invited to a parley with King Tramennis. Since he's an invited guest, the casters are less concerned about violating MK neutrality. Appropriate safeguards are in place to ensure it's no trap. Heck, the Tramennis-Parson parley might even occur in Isaac's secure thinkspace.
  • Tramennis and Parson chat. Truce achieved.

What would the terms of the truce be?
I imagine Parson needs access to Cubbins' hat magic. GK agrees to withdraw from JS and they ally, which is good because after JS ends turn, Haggar gets to go. GK agrees not to decrypt any more Jetstone units. GK agrees to disavow Toolism (which was getting old as an anti-Charlie ploy anyway.) JS offers its support against their true enemy which can be FAQ (if Tramennis is serious about getting his brother back, which he might be) or Charlie, probably Charlie. Which sets us up for Book 3, in which Charlie calls in every favor he has to stop Hamster, Jetstone, and the Great Minds that Think Alike.

I have no illusions of this being the end result. in fact, I think it very unlikely, mostly because it means we start Book 3 with Charlie being the underdog. (Of course, Book 2 started with Jetstone being the underdog, so there's precedent.)

How would they know that Parson is in the Magic Kingdom?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Avic » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:07 pm

Keldaria wrote:Wanda is in the Magic Kingdom, and the Tower is down making the portal shut.


Until the city is no longer a capital, the portal is still open. It's still a capital until there's no more JS units in the garrison. Cubbins, among others, is still in the garrison.

If the portal was shut, Parson wouldn't still be trying to get through it.

Keldaria wrote:...and also obvious that a side doesn't just poof at the very second a ruler gets croaked but rather when they end their turn...


No, any non-Garrison unit does "go poof" when a ruler is killed and they have no heirs alive. Queen Bea and Unaroyal showed this when, the instant she stepped into her capital's MK portal, all her units "went poof".

Garrison units may not disappear, and we don't know how decryption affects the heir rule, but we've seen that the effects of ruler death are instantaneous.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby bladestorm » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:10 pm

Now that I think about it, Charlie could be calling in with the information on Parson's whereabouts. The kingclone is not in a really good state to be making any deals, especially with the likes of Charlie. Charlescomm is probably gonna bend Jetstone completely over, and have them asking for more while singing Charlie's praises. In exchange for enough Schmuckers to save their side and then some (possibly rebuilding Spacerock and a few 'volunteered' allies), Charlie could get Parson captured and delivered to him, Wanda captured/croaked, the Arkenhammer (via key information about how vulnerable GK is right now), a contract in Spacerock to hire thinkamancers one by one to be sent on suicide missions/get bound up into trimancer links until tGMtTA are depleted, tribute, and propoganda among the other Royals to drum up business for Charlescomm.

More homework time: Seven Stages of Grief
1.) Shock and Denial - clone kinda just got pushed past this
2.) Pain and Guilt - Clone may be here, but for how long? Charlie can play upon the guilt
3.) Anger and Bargaining - Charlie takes full advantage of the clone, with a possible lashing out at the Side responsible for inflicting this loss
4.)Depression, reflection. loneliness
5.)the Upward Turn
6.)Reconstruction and Working Through
7.) Acceptance and Hope

Charlie is about to get a win/win/win situation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby gameboy1234 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:43 pm

wrecan wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Aww, that is so sweet, thanks! Only the dead see the end of Erfworld.

And now we know what awaits us in the City of Heroes!


Just wanted to point out this interesting parallelism: City of Heroes, the MMORPG, was cancelled recently. Soon it will indeed be a graveyard, for the dead only.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Goshen » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:53 pm

It's just like Charlie to show up at the moment when Clonely is most emotionally vulnerable.

He already did worse to Ansom way back in Book 1. See http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uploads/book1/120.jpg and http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F121.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Crazyterran » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:16 pm

wrecan wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
wrecan wrote:As for Cubbins, I suspect he is going to be captured, and possibly turned. Parson needs a Charlie-proof mode of communication and I think hat magic is exactly what he needs.


In the interests of completionism, I would like to point out that there's another possibility for that to happen. The alliance between Jetstone and GK that Trem, and maybe Parson, were hinting at way back when I still had some natural teeth. It's been a while and my memory isn't what it used to be.

Sure. That could happen. Actually, it could happen quite easily:
  • Charlie trades decrypted archon for money
  • Tramennis becomes heir
  • Lloyd, having expended the last of his juice, lets Slately2 dissolve
  • Tramennis and force fight their way through decrypted to the portal.
  • Ace Hardware steps through the portal to deliver a message. Parson is invited to a parley with King Tramennis. Since he's an invited guest, the casters are less concerned about violating MK neutrality. Appropriate safeguards are in place to ensure it's no trap. Heck, the Tramennis-Parson parley might even occur in Isaac's secure thinkspace.
  • Tramennis and Parson chat. Truce achieved.

What would the terms of the truce be?
I imagine Parson needs access to Cubbins' hat magic. GK agrees to withdraw from JS and they ally, which is good because after JS ends turn, Haggar gets to go. GK agrees not to decrypt any more Jetstone units. GK agrees to disavow Toolism (which was getting old as an anti-Charlie ploy anyway.) JS offers its support against their true enemy which can be FAQ (if Tramennis is serious about getting his brother back, which he might be) or Charlie, probably Charlie. Which sets us up for Book 3, in which Charlie calls in every favor he has to stop Hamster, Jetstone, and the Great Minds that Think Alike.

I have no illusions of this being the end result. in fact, I think it very unlikely, mostly because it means we start Book 3 with Charlie being the underdog. (Of course, Book 2 started with Jetstone being the underdog, so there's precedent.)


So you are saying that Wanda/Stanley's religious views would be completely disregarded because a faction they are about to take the heart out of asks them to so they can have an alliance?

What?

Jetstone should get finished off, and the most powerful Royalist nation removed. There's no reason for Parson to trust Jetstone, and there's probably no way that Stanley would go for an Alliance or truce when he has his opponent in a death grip.

Unless Parson and Stanley suddenly get really stupid and accept a truce that doesn't really benefit him. Unless, somehow, a bankrupt nation that spent everything trying to fight you, and is now crippled, is somehow a worthwhile ally.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby bladestorm » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:45 pm

Basic tenant of gaming. If someone has something you want, you kill them, loot the corpse, and take the items you want (hat magician, dittomancer, healomancer, and dollamancer). If possible, animate the corpse to use as a meat shield or mule (in this case, decrypt Artemis and any other pertinent warlord, and hopefully get Slately's body before it depops).

Serving under Parson, Artemis should get a lot more field time, which would make her quite happy. Perhaps even stacked with Sylvia, providing cover for the purples.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby sheepfly » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:03 am

Crazyterran wrote:Jetstone should get finished off, and the most powerful Royalist nation removed. There's no reason for Parson to trust Jetstone, and there's probably no way that Stanley would go for an Alliance or truce when he has his opponent in a death grip.

Unless Parson and Stanley suddenly get really stupid and accept a truce that doesn't really benefit him. Unless, somehow, a bankrupt nation that spent everything trying to fight you, and is now crippled, is somehow a worthwhile ally.


Agreed. The only type of merger a power gamer like Parson should accept is of the winner-take-all variety. If Parson wishes to spare some of his enemies from being slaughtered and decrypted because, well, he's not a sociopath, that would make sense. Perhaps he could even persuade some former Jetstonians to join GK rather than be disbanded or killed as barbarians.

But an alliance? When Parson has a hard enough time controlling people within his OWN side who already trust him & recognize him as the Perfect Warlord? No booping way.

bladestorm wrote:Serving under Parson, Artemis should get a lot more field time, which would make her quite happy. Perhaps even stacked with Sylvia, providing cover for the purples.


Sylvia leading a ragtag team of fate-defying decrypted warlords? There's a pretty thought.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Messenger » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:45 am

The possibility of Slately's double being unable to promote an Heir is disturbing, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could do it as a loophole. Those things happen all the time in all sorts of strategy games and often to hilarious effect. If so, let's just hope Slately 2 closes the deal before his time runs out.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby raphfrk » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:43 am

fehler wrote:Is there a function to hold a turn open indefinitely? Time passes, turns end, doubles cease to exist. I'm sure if there was a side out there that didn't want to end their turn in the past, it would have been tried by now. Or is that "lateral thinking"?


It wouldn't make much difference. Sides in your battlespace would have to wait (and would probably be annoyed), but even if you waited a million real-time years, sides outside your battlespace wouldn't even notice.

Also, I wonder if there is some kind of mechanic to prevent it. For example, if the Ruler falls asleep, the turn automatically ends. It has been show that the dwagon relay abuse made Ansom tired.

effataigus wrote:There is something a lil weird going on. My reading of this strip is that Cubbins is important for being alive and out of view rather than for providing leadership. That said, it seems that the chances of Cubbins being the only person of all of those people on that tower that ended up incapacitated and out of view would be pretty small. It is possible that Tram is just overlooking those others that have survived in the rubble because Clonely didn't mention them, because its not important for *their* understanding of Erfworld, and because he doesn't want to dither too much when action is needed.


Also, he is a Commander. Other units which survived would be forced to auto-attack, though granted not if incapacitated. That gives him one less hurdle to cross.

3. He survived because he has plot armor of a different sort... bestowed by Fate because Parson will need a hat magician in his battle against Charlie, and either a decrypted caster in charge of communications would be a liability or a decrypted caster can't cast.


It is funny that there is an in-universe justification for plot armor.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby coyotenose » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:46 am

CUBBINS OMG YES!!!11!!

*gasps for breath*

Okay, Cubbins does not (yet) have plot armor, nor is his survival a matter of a problem with the writing or story, as some think.

As a story consideration, Jetstone needs a reason to be in a hurry to retake the garrison. Therefore it needs to be in "mortal" danger. It's established that GK is systematically emptying the garrison of enemy units, so there is a serious time issue. I don't know whether or not it is pertinent that a hidden, incapacitated unit is a warlord or commander*, but it IS pertinent that it is someone we've seen before. Again, as a story consideration, such a unit should be someone who either has a history or is being groomed for one. It adds emotion and tension. The situation would feel pretty bland if the buried, incapacitated unit was an armless doll golem. There would be no personal weight to the matter. They couldn't even justify the time to dig out an archer or piker that none of them knew personally and that couldn't add much to Jetstone's defense, so part of the urgency of the garrison assault would be negated.

Although I'd be amused if the buried unit was one of those kangaroo golems, and after being freed, it stuffed Sylvia upside down in its pouch to hold her while Ace kicked the crap out of her. Now that'd be a giant plush kangaroo with history.

*Wouldn't Cubbins have more Hits than most units, even as a caster? Surely he's slightly more likely to survive a fall, even given the random factor.
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