Book 2 – Page 88

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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Lamech » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:44 pm

Oberon wrote:And please, if you even try to claim that cloney would retain all of the abilities of a duplicate king when somehow the rulership has passed to Ansom, just don't. By your own argument, cloney had to have the natural thinkamancy while Slately was alive in order to pass as the king. For cloney to retain rulership only capabilities while Ansom is king would just as obviously identify him as a duplicate.

How? What would reveal him as a dupe?
You want the "must have rulership abilities to pass for real" at the same time as you want those same abilities, if they continue on past the passing of the rulership to Ansom, to reveal the duplication. And before you say it, no you didn't say the second sentence. It is inherent in your argument that Ansom is now the king.
How do they reveal the duplication? Please explain...
You start with a flawed assumption, therefore you arrive at a flawed conclusion.

... You do understand how a proof by contradiction works right? You start with a flawed assumption, find an absurd conclusion, and claim the assumption is wrong.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Biostar » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:52 pm

Lamech wrote:
Biostar wrote:
Lamech wrote: Clonely had natural thinkamancy when there was an other king. This contradicts the assumption.


I fail to see the evidence behind this. Care to explain?

This still doesn't explain why Ansom isn't taking advantage of being king.

Well Clonely popped, but never realized he wasn't king. It would have been pretty obvious if lacked the natural thinkamancy.

As to your second question: Why would Ansom start disbanding important Jetstone units at random? So far exactly one other warlord has shown any initiative (Sylvia) and she actually has info on the ground. Plus if Ansom disbands them, Gk doesn't get anything back. Also disbanding the units to win the war will seal the portal; right now, the second Maggie calls Ansom he can "hire" the whole pack of GK casters and get them out of the MK.

He would've been able to order the units to stand down and cease their attack on the archons. Maybe even ally with GK, if thats possible to do while being a captured unit.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:59 pm

Unrelated observation...Cubbins no longer appears to have a hat! In the HIGHLY unlikely chance he has juice left this turn, I daresay he can't cast without it :p
EDIT: WOAH WOAH WOAH....Trem said FIFTEEN HUNDRED!? They have 1,500 troops out in the city, and they haven't run back IN to storm the garrison?!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Aquillion » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:58 pm

0beron wrote:Unrelated observation...Cubbins no longer appears to have a hat! In the HIGHLY unlikely chance he has juice left this turn, I daresay he can't cast without it :p
EDIT: WOAH WOAH WOAH....Trem said FIFTEEN HUNDRED!? They have 1,500 troops out in the city, and they haven't run back IN to storm the garrison?!
Yes. Two reasons:

First, those are most likely largely weak infantry. Gobwin Knob has Dwagons.

Second, they don't know that Gobwin Knob's leadership has left the area. This in turn means that they believe that if they attack, Wanda will constantly decrypt their own troops against them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:11 pm

Still...I find it really hard to believe 1500 infantry should be scared of a dozen dwagons. The leadership is a good point, but still I'm surprised that brute numbers don't have an obvious advantage. It's known that decrypted dust and can't be rezed again, so if you prioritize striking them, then Wanda's ranks won't be able to grow exponentially.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:25 pm

I think a good number of them are also the archers who were on the Outer Walls and who won't be much use.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby cheeseaholic » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:26 pm

They also hold the courtyard. from the picture there aren't many ways in. Chokepoints will negate the numbers and make decryption an easy win. I'd guess the location of the enemy troops is what Trem needs to decide whether to attack or retreat.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Nueamin » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:42 pm

0beron wrote:Still...I find it really hard to believe 1500 infantry should be scared of a dozen dwagons. The leadership is a good point, but still I'm surprised that brute numbers don't have an obvious advantage. It's known that decrypted dust and can't be rezed again, so if you prioritize striking them, then Wanda's ranks won't be able to grow exponentially.



I think your making the assumption that they can use 1,500 units to engage effectively in the garrison which I doubt. In fact if those units haven't been put to use before now I bet it's because they KNOW there are some defensible positions with the potential to be death traps for their infantry. GK Leadership, Decrpyption, plus Dwagons and the riders that survived in any defensible position have the potential to turn huge amounts of infantry through a nearly never ending grinder of decrpytion. All they would really need is any place where only a 100 or fewer units could engage at a time. Of course since we know GK leadership isn't there it would be a hugely different story, probably something along the lines of desperate running skirmishes though im betting more likely a blazing fire of glory and death
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby nargbop » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:01 pm

0beron wrote:Still...I find it really hard to believe 1500 infantry should be scared of a dozen dwagons. The leadership is a good point, but still I'm surprised that brute numbers don't have an obvious advantage. It's known that decrypted dust and can't be rezed again, so if you prioritize striking them, then Wanda's ranks won't be able to grow exponentially.


One of the Intermission pages talked about what happens to standard units in a city when the garrison falls. If the garrison falls, all resident units are clapped in manacles, and the invaders can dispatch them at leisure. Tramennis' statements imply that the manacles are applied even to Rulers and Heirs, if the garrison is left without a defender while enemies occupy it.

I don't know why there are so few Jetstone units there. Years ago, the Royal Crown Coalition's Jetstone portion alone had almost 4000 units in it, according to one of Parson's Stupidmeals. Recently, Jetstone pulled all units back to the capital after stomping on the Gobwin Knob column. They lost many units to the Yellow Dwagon crapfall, and others to the fighting right after.

The primary reason they decided to pull out of the garrison was that their fallen were being Decrypted back, much stronger than before with the Arkenplier's bonus on hand.

They don't know that the Arkenpliers left the building. Ossomer did not tell anyone explicitly why he turned, but rather turned and quickly led the counterattack. If Clonely or Trammenis were aware that the Arkenpliers had left the building, they'd already be back in the garrison, laying waste. The entire reason they fled from the garrison is gone. They have numerical and leadership superiority both, and it's time for them to clean house.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Nueamin » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:01 am

nargbop wrote:
0beron wrote:Still...I find it really hard to believe 1500 infantry should be scared of a dozen dwagons. The leadership is a good point, but still I'm surprised that brute numbers don't have an obvious advantage. It's known that decrypted dust and can't be rezed again, so if you prioritize striking them, then Wanda's ranks won't be able to grow exponentially.


One of the Intermission pages talked about what happens to standard units in a city when the garrison falls. If the garrison falls, all resident units are clapped in manacles, and the invaders can dispatch them at leisure. Tramennis' statements imply that the manacles are applied even to Rulers and Heirs, if the garrison is left without a defender while enemies occupy it.

I don't know why there are so few Jetstone units there. Years ago, the Royal Crown Coalition's Jetstone portion alone had almost 4000 units in it, according to one of Parson's Stupidmeals. Recently, Jetstone pulled all units back to the capital after stomping on the Gobwin Knob column. They lost many units to the Yellow Dwagon crapfall, and others to the fighting right after.

The primary reason they decided to pull out of the garrison was that their fallen were being Decrypted back, much stronger than before with the Arkenplier's bonus on hand.

They don't know that the Arkenpliers left the building. Ossomer did not tell anyone explicitly why he turned, but rather turned and quickly led the counterattack. If Clonely or Trammenis were aware that the Arkenpliers had left the building, they'd already be back in the garrison, laying waste. The entire reason they fled from the garrison is gone. They have numerical and leadership superiority both, and it's time for them to clean house.


I endorse this post almost completely. Solid reasoning with some good factual information. No crazy train of thought threatening to jump the rails. A more than worthy choice for a first post.

The only thing I would disagree with is that it's time to clean house. From their point of view it is the perfect opportunity, however I'm not sure how long that opportunity will really last as the GK leadership is but steps away. I suppose even so there isn't going to be a better one so might as well take advantage now.

From my point of view I'd be happy enough if Jetstone took a big hit and left more air time for new characters. The only character I like to follow there is Trem.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Lamech » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:41 am

0beron wrote:Still...I find it really hard to believe 1500 infantry should be scared of a dozen dwagons. The leadership is a good point, but still I'm surprised that brute numbers don't have an obvious advantage. It's known that decrypted dust and can't be rezed again, so if you prioritize striking them, then Wanda's ranks won't be able to grow exponentially.

They don't realize the pliers and Wanda are gone. Without the dittomancer and healomancer to back them up Jetstone units aren't good enough to stand up to the decrypted. Remember what happened in the dungeon? Same thing would happen. Again.

Also they still have those dwagons. They can still light the garrison up. Burn all the Jetstone units that attempt to enter. There are what? Two entries to the garrison now? Light them both up and every unit storming the garrison dies.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:10 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:What can I say, I think that

Spoiler: show
Image


but pi/2 is a vaid argument. Why not make it '3 seconds / 12 meters''? Then the argument would actually be invalid.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

drachefly wrote:but pi/2 is a vaid argument. Why not make it '3 seconds / 12 meters''? Then the argument would actually be invalid.
Just like many of the arguments here, that argument is irrational.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Sieggy » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:10 am

Lamech wrote:
Biostar wrote:
Lamech wrote: Clonely had natural thinkamancy when there was an other king. This contradicts the assumption.


I fail to see the evidence behind this. Care to explain?

This still doesn't explain why Ansom isn't taking advantage of being king.

Well Clonely popped, but never realized he wasn't king. It would have been pretty obvious if lacked the natural thinkamancy.

As to your second question: Why would Ansom start disbanding important Jetstone units at random? So far exactly one other warlord has shown any initiative (Sylvia) and she actually has info on the ground. Plus if Ansom disbands them, Gk doesn't get anything back. Also disbanding the units to win the war will seal the portal; right now, the second Maggie calls Ansom he can "hire" the whole pack of GK casters and get them out of the MK.

Ansom can't do anything to anyone at the moment, as he's Jillian's prisoner. He's not a Warlord, he's not an heir, he's a captive that Jillian is going to try to turn back to her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby 0beron » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:18 am

Sieggy wrote:Ansom can't do anything to anyone at the moment, as he's Jillian's prisoner. He's not a Warlord, he's not an heir, he's a captive that Jillian is going to try to turn back to her.

While I agree with the sentiment of this statement, I think some of it is incorrect. He is still a Warlord, that's his base unit type and isn't going to change. He may be incapable of attacking (although the fact that Jillian's frequent "escapes" from GK in the modern day are plausible if albiet unlikely, suggests there must be some way for captives to fight/run). Whether he is still some kind of Heir remains to be seen, because Decryption has no precedent. Is he still a Jetstone Heir? If so is he capable of inheriting, or does the "special" lay dormant until he turns back? Is he instead an Heir for FAQ because they've captured him? or maybe he is an heir for GK? Or maybe he's not an Heir at all. We simply don't know yet.
What we DO know is that Fakely still seems to fit the mechanic function of a King, so the "Search for Heir" function hasn't yet run. So Ansom definitely isn't the ruler right now, regardless of whatever capacity to become Ruler he has or doesn't have.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby Sieggy » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:42 am

When Ansom croaked at the hands of Bogroll and unforgiving gravity, he was no longer heir, and Ossomer was named to replace him. There might have been a question as to whether or not Ossomer remained heir after being croaked & decrypted, but that was never explained as to whether croaking wipes clean the 'heir' designation or Slately canceled his account upon learning of his death & transfiguration. However, since Ossomer has now croaked (again), it's moot. At this point there is no heir, which is why Slately 2.0 is so desperate to name Trem as heir, and why Trem has to remain safe (three strikes and you're out . . .). If DoppelSlately is croaked / depops due to the spell's expiration without an heir, it's manacles for all.

The question that remains is whether croaking / decryption removes Ruler status. It would be a situation probably unprecedented on Erf if Trem was the legitimate ruler of the JS side as well as his decrypted father. I think one of the primary purposes of a charge into the garrison would be to recover the body of Slately 1.0 specifically to prevent this possibility. If Wanda were to get to him first, it would literally be a whole new ball game. It's never been made clear whether a true civil war can exist within a side on Erf, given the Ruler's ability to disband a unit at will, but this would certainly be one way to find out. If the Titans are watching all this, they've probably broken out the Really Large popcorn kettle by now.

Ansom, as far as this scenario is concerned, is completely out of the picture, though most likely not the book.
He may still be a Warlord, and even a Royal Warlord, but as far as Jetstone is concerned, he's simply an abomination. And I'm not even sure if the 'Warlord' designation is actually appropriate given his circumstances - as a prisoner of love, he has no one to lead, no one to stack with, and I think the best that could be said of him right now is that he's a really badass solo fighter More of a barbarian than anything else. Unless / until Jillian turns him . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:52 am

Sieggy wrote:And I'm not even sure if the 'Warlord' designation is actually appropriate given [Ansom's] circumstances - as prisoner of love, he has no one to lead, no one to stack with, and I think the best that could be said of him right now is that he's a really badass solo fighter More of a barbarian than anything else. Unless / until Jillian turns him . . .

From a narrative/flavor perspective, yes you're correct. But "Warlord" is a unit type. Technically that's ALL that any Warlord is, a really badass solo fighter. His current situation doesn't change that. Jillian was a Barbarian WARLORD too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby drachefly » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:12 am

Sieggy wrote: If DoppelSlately is croaked / depops due to the spell's expiration without an heir, it's manacles for all.


Actually, no. It's neutral status for all. Manacles is if the garrison is taken.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:16 am

drachefly wrote:It's neutral status for all [if Ruler dies without Heir]. Manacles is if the garrison is taken.

And this means all units outside Jetstone cities autodisband, and units in their cities are frozen. They will only unfreeze to defend themselves if their stack is engaged by an attacker. Of course, combining the 2, then a smart attacker would just pass by all the frozen stacks and take the Garrison, putting manacles on all those frozen units so they can be easily captured without fighting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 88

Postby drachefly » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:22 pm

0beron wrote:
drachefly wrote:It's neutral status for all [if Ruler dies without Heir]. Manacles is if the garrison is taken.

And this means all units outside Jetstone cities autodisband, and units in their cities are frozen. They will only unfreeze to defend themselves if their stack is engaged by an attacker.


I'm pretty sure we haven't been told whether it's stack-by-stack, zone-by-zone, or city-by-city.
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