Book 2 – Page 89

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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby ShieldOfAthena » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:29 am

bladestorm wrote:unmatched Thinkamancy could be on par with Xavier.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Lamech » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:22 pm

Whispri wrote:Going back to the 'twice' thing, the trouble with blackmailing Haggard being the save, is that he did it in such a way as to make the fight against Gobwin Knob harder. That is to say, that as a result of Ansom's capture Jetstone were tempted into wasting forces they desperately needed (probably including a Warlord or two) against the column. And worse (the promotion of a Chief Warlord within the hex) was only avoided as a result of Maggie's treachery. The first may be passed off as Jetstone's mistake, but the latter... Perhaps he means the delay in the Magick Kingdom, it's possible that Parson would have beat the Thinkawitches to the portal if not for Charlie's agent.
Its possible that is what he means. But if that is the case since his plan obviously includes letting Parson into Jetstone (predicatamancer's statements+need to kill Parson), that isn't exactly an improvement either. Besides what would have Parson done? Order a hunt for units in the garrison?

I just think Charlie is saying whatever he wants to make him look important and trustworthy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Kornaki » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:43 pm

Whispri wrote:If it wasn't for Charlie's help, Ansom would still be alive. Think about it, if not for Charlie's intervention, Parson wouldn't have been forced to use the Bogroll gambit or to press the button marked 'death'. And while I think it's safe to say that Ansom would have defeated without Charlie's help, fact is, he couldn't have been defeated more completely than he ultimately was and Gobwin Knob could not have hoped to have been strengthened more. Similarly, Ossomer and Slately would still be alive if not for Charlie's bounty.


I'm confused, how did you envision the Gobwin Knob fight playing out if Charlie wasn't involved? Because I'm pretty sure Ansom would have just gotten killed by the dragons over a lake trap way back on page 50. Yes, Charlie escalated things but that was to the benefit of the Coalition, not the detriment.

Then Ansom would have gotten killed again if he didn't agree to Charlies terms after getting knocked down while assaulting the wall. So Charlie saved Ansom twice, I don't understand how Ansom survives the war without Charlie
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Biostar » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:50 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Charlie knows the word "kill". It was in Klog #13 seen here: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F116a.jpg


That Klog is in Parson's point of view, not Charlie's. And even if he saw it, I doubt he would change basic terminology based on that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Lamech » Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:28 pm

Kornaki wrote:
Whispri wrote:If it wasn't for Charlie's help, Ansom would still be alive. Think about it, if not for Charlie's intervention, Parson wouldn't have been forced to use the Bogroll gambit or to press the button marked 'death'. And while I think it's safe to say that Ansom would have defeated without Charlie's help, fact is, he couldn't have been defeated more completely than he ultimately was and Gobwin Knob could not have hoped to have been strengthened more. Similarly, Ossomer and Slately would still be alive if not for Charlie's bounty.


I'm confused, how did you envision the Gobwin Knob fight playing out if Charlie wasn't involved? Because I'm pretty sure Ansom would have just gotten killed by the dragons over a lake trap way back on page 50. Yes, Charlie escalated things but that was to the benefit of the Coalition, not the detriment.
Jillian would have rescued Ansom and broken through the dwagon hex. The siege would have been wiped. Then air cover would have been restored and the coalition could have retreated in peace. Or Ansom might have pressed ahead and lost the battle in the tunnels. Then he could have retreated in peace.

Either way, gobwin knob shouldn't have gotten Ansom, or the pliers. They would probably just be contending with annoying numbers of dwagons instead at this point.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Whispri » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:26 pm

Lamech wrote:Its possible that is what he means. But if that is the case since his plan obviously includes letting Parson into Jetstone (predicatamancer's statements+need to kill Parson), that isn't exactly an improvement either. Besides what would have Parson done? Order a hunt for units in the garrison?

I just think Charlie is saying whatever he wants to make him look important and trustworthy.

His current plan involves letting Parson into Jetstone, but that's his back up plan following the failure of the plan to banish Parson while he was in the Magick Kingdom. As for what Parson could have done, he could have added his bonus plus Wanda's to the Archons in the air battle. That alone, would have been checkmate.

I'm quite sure he is spinning like a freshly spun spinning top and indeed, flat out lying. However, it is very likely indeed that there are two specific incidents to which Charlie would point and claim to have saved Jetstone. And I believe that the tunnel interception is a strong candidate for being one of those incidents.

Kornaki wrote:I'm confused, how did you envision the Gobwin Knob fight playing out if Charlie wasn't involved? Because I'm pretty sure Ansom would have just gotten killed by the dragons over a lake trap way back on page 50. Yes, Charlie escalated things but that was to the benefit of the Coalition, not the detriment.

Then Ansom would have gotten killed again if he didn't agree to Charlies terms after getting knocked down while assaulting the wall. So Charlie saved Ansom twice, I don't understand how Ansom survives the war without Charlie

As Lamech noted, Ansom breaks through to the column, the siege is destroyed, the battle is over. And the earlier the RCC is defeated, the better off they are.

In that case, which presumes Ansom hired the first three Archons but no more than that, Ansom is captured alive (for that was the order Wanda gave to the Uncroaked Warlords that were with her), the pliers are taken and well, that's it. If Wanda can Decrypt Uncroaked Units then Gobwin Knob would gain a reasonably sized force of infantry plus a few Warlords and fliers at best. Jetstone and the RCC would be in a much stronger position if things had happened that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Housellama » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:50 pm

bladestorm wrote:Wait.... So if Charlie was wanting to get Parson and the Mathemancy Bracer on his side, what happened to make him want to kill Parson now?
...
Charlie already knows that Parson is too dangerous to try to coerce by force. Send in twice as many Archons as is needed to take GK's airspace, and you lose all of them in one move. Instead, start setting up a lot of pressure from multiple sides all trying to force Parson into some grand destiny, and then offer him a much more pleasant alternative where he has a sense of control over his actions.


I think that Charlie believes that Parson is not only too dangerous to try to control, but that his personal dislike for him overrides any gain that may come from turning him. Summer Update 48 appears to be the last time they chatted, or at least the last time we see them chatting. Charlie talks to a lot of people in Book 2, but never with GK and always with the goal of eliminating GK. He doesn't make provisions to keep Parson alive as he did with JS in tBfGK. In fact, since the start of the Battle for JS, Charlie has been actively targeting him. (LiaB Update 41 and 43). He's taken a huge loss (by his own standards) in an attempt to get Parson. The fact that Charlie has now come right out and said that he wants Parson dead comes as no surprise to me.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again. Parson is, unsurprisingly given the recent revelations, the biggest threat to Charlie in Erfworld. Why (aside from the fact that he was specifically summoned to deal with him)? Because he's at least as smart as Charlie and at least as devious. He's just as Genre Savvy as Charlie, and what Parson lacks in Erfworld subject knowledge, he makes up for in out of the box thinking.

The huge advantage that Charlie has over everyone else is the Arkendish. Thinkamancy is routine and all sorts of information is passed through it by all Sides every Turn. I'm willing to bet that Charlie has access to all of it. In addition, nobody but TGMTTA appear to have any idea that anyone is listening. The concept of Big Brother appears to be unknown in Erfworld at large. Enter Parson, who is not only familiar with BB, but aware of how to exploit it. Now, he has an enemy that is not only his equal, but neutralizes his biggest advantage. In fact, Parson is capable of turning it into a liability.

During and shortly tBfGK, Parson was an asset to acquire. After the Volcano happened, Charlie took a cautious stance (Summer Update 22) Then Decryption came to light and Charlie realized Parson (and by extension GK) had compromised him. That instantly made Parson (and by extension GK) a liability to be eliminated by whatever means necessary. Obviously nothing up to the present Turn has changed that opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby youngstormlord » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:07 am

I like how clone-Stately changed to chessboard pieces. First, he was the king, then the bishop and finally pawn. Harsh, Charlie. Very harsh!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby effataigus » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:35 am

bladestorm wrote:unmatched Thinkamancy could be on par with Xavier.

You mean Charles Xavier?
Whispri wrote:Going back to the 'twice' thing, the trouble with blackmailing Haggard being the save, is that he did it in such a way as to make the fight against Gobwin Knob harder. That is to say, that as a result of Ansom's capture Jetstone were tempted into wasting forces they desperately needed (probably including a Warlord or two) against the column.

Definitely including a warlord or two... Wrigley speared one. Nevertheless, you are trying much too hard to make something simple into something very convoluted. Without Charlescomm strong-arming Haggar, JS would still be surrounded by not one, but two very powerful hostile ground forces. Having the (few) units that died wiping out the ground column would just mean a few more bodies in the atrium, a few more units for JS, and a few more units for GK. Moreover, regardless of whether it worked out for JS in the long run, JS had a problem and Charlescomm solved it. Unfortunately for JS, he only took out one bird with that stone (Haggar), when he was trying to kill two. He was trying to kill Ansom... granting the ability to move CWLs or not, this was aimed at getting Jillian back to the airspace to deal with Wanda.
valce wrote:As the king, can Slately invite Parson through the portal?

As a reader, I can invite Parson through the portal. I don't think it'll change any game mechanics if either of us were to do so though!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:43 am

effataigus wrote:
bladestorm wrote:unmatched Thinkamancy could be on par with Xavier.

You mean Charles Xavier?


Maybe Rufus Xavier Sarsparilla. ;)

I only heard the song once, so for the longest time I thought he was Charles Xavier Sarsparilla.

Yeah.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby effataigus » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:49 am

drachefly wrote:Maybe Rufus Xavier Sarsparilla. ;)

Thanks to you and youtube, I have a new found appreciation for pronouns! :D

Forgot to also comment that I found your interpretation helpful, John Thacker. I don't know whether your interpretation is as Rob intended or not, but it does make sense and it wasn't how I was thinking about Tram's comments before.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby effataigus » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:50 pm

Lamech wrote:Or Ansom might have pressed ahead and lost the battle in the tunnels. Then he could have retreated in peace.

Either way, gobwin knob shouldn't have gotten Ansom, or the pliers. They would probably just be contending with annoying numbers of dwagons instead at this point.

Before this thread spends too much more time discussing what things in book 1 Charlie could be referring to, let's take a moment and think about the phrase "this battle." Unless "this battle" is still somehow "The Battle for Gobwin Knob..."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby bladestorm » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:11 pm

effataigus wrote:
Lamech wrote:Or Ansom might have pressed ahead and lost the battle in the tunnels. Then he could have retreated in peace.

Either way, gobwin knob shouldn't have gotten Ansom, or the pliers. They would probably just be contending with annoying numbers of dwagons instead at this point.

Before this thread spends too much more time discussing what things in book 1 Charlie could be referring to, let's take a moment and think about the phrase "this battle." Unless "this battle" is still somehow "The Battle for Gobwin Knob..."

The Battle against Potato Parson. Started when that summoning spell went off.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Kreistor » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:33 pm

zbeeblebrox wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Further, Charlie may have drawn all of those visuals from Parson's mind during that discussion. The Joker image is classic Joker (Killing Joke version, I think, NOT Heath Ledger's imperfect variant. Parson left Erfworld prior to Heath's version being released.


It's absolutely Heath Ledger's version. There's never been a comic version of the Joker depicting him with scars by his mouth. That was unique to The Dark Knight. But it should be noted that the line he's quoting is from Tim Burton's '89 Batman film, not TDK. That's also the puzzle link between The Joker and "Beetlejuice" (who's name is spelled "Betelgeuse" in the film). Betelgeuse is the name of a star, which links him to Khan. Khan is a tyrant who was trapped in suspended animation, which links him to General Zod who was a tyrant trapped in suspended animation. General Zod connects to Agent Smith...for a few possible reasons but it's not entirely clear (Neo is like superman? Superman 2 and the Matrix were both filmed by two directors?). Agent Smith connects to Dr. Gero because they're both robots/cybernetic/whatever. Dr. Gero connects with Dr. Doom because "Dr". Doom connects with Palpatine because they're both disfigured rulers who wear hoods.


http://www.superherostuff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/joker-heath-ledger.jpg

Note how Ledger's version does not have lipstick-like red on the mouth, as does the classic image:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cavq_3EJV8c/T9ascaZWu2I/AAAAAAAAAqY/6rKYolAuHzs/s1600/joker+(1).jpg

This comic has a pristine lipstick-like mouth.

There is in fact one other version that DOES have mouth scarring -- Jack Nicholson's version.

http://smhttp.14409.nexcesscdn.net/806D5E/wordpress-L/images/jack-joker.jpg

No, I completely disagree with this being Heath. It is further from Heath than any other version (specifically the lips), which doesn't surprise. Too close to an actor's portrayal might get into infringement, since it is not being used as satire (the typical "out" for copyright violations of this sort... since Charlie is emulating the Joker with no mocking intent, it is darned hard to cite satirical purposes).
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Salem » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:54 pm

Kreistor wrote:
zbeeblebrox wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Further, Charlie may have drawn all of those visuals from Parson's mind during that discussion. The Joker image is classic Joker (Killing Joke version, I think, NOT Heath Ledger's imperfect variant. Parson left Erfworld prior to Heath's version being released.


It's absolutely Heath Ledger's version. There's never been a comic version of the Joker depicting him with scars by his mouth. That was unique to The Dark Knight. But it should be noted that the line he's quoting is from Tim Burton's '89 Batman film, not TDK. That's also the puzzle link between The Joker and "Beetlejuice" (who's name is spelled "Betelgeuse" in the film). Betelgeuse is the name of a star, which links him to Khan. Khan is a tyrant who was trapped in suspended animation, which links him to General Zod who was a tyrant trapped in suspended animation. General Zod connects to Agent Smith...for a few possible reasons but it's not entirely clear (Neo is like superman? Superman 2 and the Matrix were both filmed by two directors?). Agent Smith connects to Dr. Gero because they're both robots/cybernetic/whatever. Dr. Gero connects with Dr. Doom because "Dr". Doom connects with Palpatine because they're both disfigured rulers who wear hoods.


http://www.superherostuff.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/joker-heath-ledger.jpg

Note how Ledger's version does not have lipstick-like red on the mouth, as does the classic image:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cavq_3EJV8c/T9ascaZWu2I/AAAAAAAAAqY/6rKYolAuHzs/s1600/joker+(1).jpg

This comic has a pristine lipstick-like mouth.

There is in fact one other version that DOES have mouth scarring -- Jack Nicholson's version.

http://smhttp.14409.nexcesscdn.net/806D5E/wordpress-L/images/jack-joker.jpg

No, I completely disagree with this being Heath. It is further from Heath than any other version (specifically the lips), which doesn't surprise. Too close to an actor's portrayal might get into infringement, since it is not being used as satire (the typical "out" for copyright violations of this sort... since Charlie is emulating the Joker with no mocking intent, it is darned hard to cite satirical purposes).

I'd look to the hair. Charlie does not have super short hair, only Heath does that in the images you cite. Not to mention the ominous feel fits it well.

Edit: Not to mention the heavy black eye shadow.

Edit: Not to mention he's wearing a tie rather than a bowtie, and his clothing is less vibrant and bright.

I wasn't sure before but I'm going to say this is Heath's version.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Levor » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:22 pm

jah77 wrote:This has been a long time coming but I just want to say:

I TOTALLY called this over a year ago! :D

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3034&start=100#p59913


Pffft Late-To-The-Party!! I called this two years ago :ugeek:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1658&p=37663#p37663

And the reasoning I gave there continues to be plausible for me three years on - Charlie isn't trying to win this game, merely survive, to ensure his indefinitely extended existence. But his strategy is not like FAQ's, he's involved in the game constantly, ensuring it continues. And if the ultimate goal is to bring the game to an end, then he is the Big Bad, because he is the single biggest factor in preventing the game from ending.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Sieggy » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:38 am

In which case he is doing the work of the Titans, who created Erf as a place of constant warfare. He is seeking to maintain the status quo not so much that he profits from it as he is, when you get down to it, the ultimate High Priest of the Titans. More than anyone else, he is one with his world, and doubtless unique in that unlike almost every other Side Leader, Royal or Barbarian, he doesn't want to conquer the world. There are a few anomalies like Banhammer, but virtually every other side in existence would, given the resources and opportunity, conquer all of Erf. Charlie simply wants to ensure that the Titan's dance never ends, and that he is always dancing.

Parson threatens to stop the music, threatens to disrupt the dance, and Charlie hates him with a religious fervor for that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Oberon » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:28 am

Kreistor wrote:This comic has a pristine lipstick-like mouth.
Yes, yes. Because a most "pristine lipstick-like mouth" has huge significance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 89

Postby Salem » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:05 am

Oberon wrote:
Kreistor wrote:This comic has a pristine lipstick-like mouth.
Yes, yes. Because a most "pristine lipstick-like mouth" has huge significance.

It really could when you're trying to identify which character something is. In this case the shadows make it moot. If you were REALLY trying to capture ledger's joker he would look like, well like he didn't know how to apply lipstick.
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