Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:55 am

Safaquel wrote:Could be thinkamancy. Explains why they disappear after leaving the hex, also ties in with linked casters Jack, Misty and Maggie being shackled when linked in the beginning of the comic.


Eh... even if those shackles were more than symbolic - which I think they were - we haven't seen them appear anywhere else, so like as not it was more to help or show that link had been going on a long time. All shackles don't mean the same thing I expect.

And what's this about thinkamancy vanishing when you leave the hex...?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Safaquel » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:26 pm

Kaed wrote:
Safaquel wrote:Could be thinkamancy. Explains why they disappear after leaving the hex, also ties in with linked casters Jack, Misty and Maggie being shackled when linked in the beginning of the comic.

And what's this about thinkamancy vanishing when you leave the hex...?


No, you're reading me wrong. Thinkamancy itself may not disappear if a unit leaves the hex. Shackles, however, do. Leaving the hex symbolizes freedom of movement, as opposed to the shackled state. It follows that the shackles may represent a state of a unit in the collective mind of Erf, and they disappear once free will has been reasserted by taking a decisive step (moving into a different hex by escapee's own volition).
So far we have seen serious signamancy in erfworld, so this could be one of those things if not Thinkamancy.
Now that I think of it, signamancy fits the shackles bill better, though thinkamancy is a possibility.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Koliup » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:44 am

Well, we can at least agree it's natural mancies at work.
For game purposes, it may be wise to nix the accidental death thing.

Though, the boats having to have crew and whatnot is very interesting.
And as for the being able to hide sans foolamancy, I feel I should point out that the city Jillian was in was pretty understaffed. It was less Solid Snake and more slinking about.
However, what we have gained an understanding that sans foolamancy, or being a scout, units can hide. Though it seems pretty dependent on how many(self-aware; uncroaked don't count) pairs of eyes there are to see them. Jillian would probably not have been able to pull that off in any well staffed city, like Gobwin Knob.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:50 pm

Back from an absence and trying to catch up on this. Do I need to retcon the last... many... turns of budgets to account for the rules for Farms apparently having shifted again?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:57 pm

Exate wrote:Do I need to retcon the last... many... turns of budgets to account for the rules for Farms apparently having shifted again?

For convenience sake I'd recommend just giving yourself a lump sum in the current turn equal to the value of farm bonus you missed. But it's the Titan's call.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:10 pm

0beron wrote:
Exate wrote:Do I need to retcon the last... many... turns of budgets to account for the rules for Farms apparently having shifted again?
For convenience sake I'd recommend just giving yourself a lump sum in the current turn equal to the value of farm bonus you missed. But it's the Titan's call.
But I also have to remove the 1%/farm income discount from every turn on which I received it, which is most of them. That's much more complex, even if it doesn't come out to that much money.

Also, reading through this, apparently we have new Heavy rules. Is this an appropriate summary?
-Apply Heavy to any designed unit as a 5-point special that grants +5/+3/+3 and makes the unit unable to ride mounts or enter tunnels
-Buy Heavy for any existing unit for 600 shmuckers to instantly grant it +5/+3/+3 and make the unit unable to ride mounts or enter tunnels
-Apply Heavy to any designed unit as a 5-point special that grants +4/+2/+2, grants tunnel-capable, and makes the unit unable to ride mounts
-Buy Heavy for any existing unit for 600 shmuckers to instantly grant it +4/+2/+2, grant tunnel-capable, and make the unit unable to ride mounts

If this is correct, there are a few questions/comments I've got.

-Why the heck does Heavy ever grant tunnel-capable? If a unit with Heavy wants to be able to enter tunnels, it should just buy Tunnel Capability or Burrowing, which obviously take priority.
-Do units with tons of Hits still become Heavy automatically, and if so, does this automatically apply its stat bonuses to them? This is self-evidently a rather complex issue as it means that buying Hits up during unit design is either highly undesirable (as it dooms units to never get a Heavy bonus) or highly desirable (as it's a huge free stat boost).
-Do Heavy units have any change in their upkeep?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:20 pm

Exate wrote:But I also have to remove the 1%/farm income discount from every turn on which I received it, which is most of them. That's much more complex, even if it doesn't come out to that much money.
Farms don't do a %, they're just a flat 75 schmuckers per farm per turn that can only be applied to upkeep. In the highly unlikely event your upkeep was lower than the "rebate" you don't get to keep the extra.
Exate wrote:Heavy Stuff.
Your summary is correct.
Exate wrote:-Why the heck does Heavy ever grant tunnel-capable? If a unit with Heavy wants to be able to enter tunnels, it should just buy Tunnel Capability or Burrowing, which obviously take priority.
-Do units with tons of Hits still become Heavy automatically, and if so, does this automatically apply its stat bonuses to them? This is self-evidently a rather complex issue as it means that buying Hits up during unit design is either highly undesirable (as it dooms units to never get a Heavy bonus) or highly desirable (as it's a huge free stat boost).
-Do Heavy units have any change in their upkeep?
-I think the cost really works out to be the same, so it's no difference.
-Units with tons of hits are (I think) considered heavy in the sense that they can't Ride, but they don't get the stat bonus.
-I don't think their upkeep changes.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:51 pm

0beron wrote:
Exate wrote:But I also have to remove the 1%/farm income discount from every turn on which I received it, which is most of them. That's much more complex, even if it doesn't come out to that much money.
Farms don't do a %, they're just a flat 75 schmuckers per farm per turn that can only be applied to upkeep. In the highly unlikely event your upkeep was lower than the "rebate" you don't get to keep the extra.
This was exactly my point. See, previously:
Kaed wrote:Farms give 1% reduction to upkeep for units in the garrison.
Which means that I now have to go back and yank out the 1%/farm upkeep discount for all units which were in the garrison at the time. Whatever, it's annoying but doable with only a relatively small number of budgets to worry about.

0beron wrote:-I think the cost really works out to be the same, so it's no difference.
It's needlessly entangling two upgrades that have little if anything to do with one another and creating corner case rules. That's poor game design.
0beron wrote:-Units with tons of hits are (I think) considered heavy in the sense that they can't Ride, but they don't get the stat bonus.
This needs clarification and perhaps tweaking, then, because at the moment it's desirable to avoid buying up Hits so as to avoid the nerfed Heavy tag and leave open the option of purchasing a stat boost after construction.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:22 pm

Exate wrote:This was exactly my point. See, previously:
Kaed wrote:Farms give 1% reduction to upkeep for units in the garrison.
Which means that I now have to go back and yank out the 1%/farm upkeep discount for all units which were in the garrison at the time. Whatever, it's annoying but doable with only a relatively small number of budgets to worry about.
ooooooooh I see now. I didn't realize that 1% was actually in effect for a portion, since I don't have farms :/ sorry! :(
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:51 pm

Random question (as always). The structure points you get for adding hp and such to city defenses. At level 5 it's 200 (+200 to a single section). Does that extra 200 apply to the main city structure as well, or is my nagging feeling that it only applies to the capital right?

Also, Kaed, where are youuuuuuuuuuu? I wanna do turn 9.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:04 pm

Well the idea of structure points in general was my idea, and Kaed tweaked the system to have that +200. Since Level 5's seem quite rare, I think it makes sense that all cities would receive that, because most sides will only bother upgrading the capital to 5, at least until we're WAY into the game. Again, his call, but that's my take on it.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:09 pm

On paper that makes sense. I just vaguely remember a conversation based on Spacerock's extra thick outer walls causing the (+200) decision, and that this was something that only a capital had so as to make it stand out and be notably more defended than any regular city.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:41 pm

Text Update 25, on the topic of Spacerock wrote:Most Level 5 cities were designed with some unique or augmented feature.

Guess that answers it :)
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:44 pm

That must be what I was thinking of then. Makes sense, good to have a comic answer too. I can go back to scribbling notes then.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:18 am

The long silence from me is over. I've sort of been watching this thread but really busy.

With the farms I'm inclined to go with the flat amount. Calculating 4% of a bunch of stabbers of various levels and upkeep is horribly difficult compared to just 300 discount. That's ten free level one stabbers, yay~

And I'm not sure what you want fixed about level five cities. The rules seem fine to me...
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 am

Kaed wrote:And I'm not sure what you want fixed about level five cities. The rules seem fine to me...
He was just checking for confirmation that ALL level 5 cities get that "+200 in one zone" bonus, not just level 5 Capitals. I assumed that was the case, and also found the comic evidence to back it up. No rule change needed :)
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:20 pm

The above is truth.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:44 pm

So I had an idea for something a moneymancer could do. Maybe see if House could do it if he develops some talent for it. I'll have an insurance policy on a high-value unit. As we've seen in the comic, Slately had the problem of not having the money to hand to promote Trammenis to heir. With a moneymancer, I'd have an heir then insure him/her by paying a small percentage each turn on the policy. In the event that my heir is croaked, the policy kicks in and returns to me the money I put aside allowing me to promote another offspring to heir immediately. The same principle could be applied to chief warlord. And to make sure the money isn't forever locked out of my reach, I could claim back on my insurance if I really needed to, being aware that the policy wouldn't have the sufficient funds in case the heir or CW was croaked, so that's the balance.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Safaquel » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:56 am

Lord of Monies wrote:So I had an idea for something a moneymancer could do. Maybe see if House could do it if he develops some talent for it. I'll have an insurance policy on a high-value unit. As we've seen in the comic, Slately had the problem of not having the money to hand to promote Trammenis to heir. With a moneymancer, I'd have an heir then insure him/her by paying a small percentage each turn on the policy. In the event that my heir is croaked, the policy kicks in and returns to me the money I put aside allowing me to promote another offspring to heir immediately. The same principle could be applied to chief warlord. And to make sure the money isn't forever locked out of my reach, I could claim back on my insurance if I really needed to, being aware that the policy wouldn't have the sufficient funds in case the heir or CW was croaked, so that's the balance.


That isn't your normal moneymancy, could be money/carny or money/turn link.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:41 am

It won't need turn as it has nothing to do with the popping of a unit (unless I want that too, in which case yeah, link) and I also doubt carny as it's not rigging the game. That would imply I cheated in some way to make a particular unit more favoured by chance or the titans. This is a simple and straightforward money transaction. Every turn, money gets put aside in the name of a specific promotion, and when that title is gone, money can be used to designate a new one.
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