Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:09 pm

A unit's upkeep cost IS the cost of rations! So it's kind of a no-brainer that if you're able to find naturally occurring rations equal to the value of the upkeep, you're all set.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby goldenboy » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:26 pm

I've been a huge Jillian fan ever since Book 1. (yes, I'm probably not like the other children.) So these updates are like key lime candy for me. With sugar on top. Gorgeous writing and art lately, it's a real treat to read a new Erfworld comic these days. Such goodness, each new page is like Easter and Xmas combined.

Are dragons connected to Luck in Erfworld, as they are (IIRC) in China? Jillian is having an extremely lucky streak here. Taming creatures also reminds me a bit of Nethack. Same for "effects" from eating corpses.

Also, high elves. ... Dude. :D

I'm so glad this will hopefully allow more people to dig Jillian. I think in the past it was often too unclear why Jillian did the seemingly random things she did (Love, is my guess). But who knows, that might have been intentional.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Balance » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:43 pm

So, it's possible to tame a feral unit by offering it "rations", effectively paying its upkeep if it accepts? Would this be regarded as natural Hippiemancy?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby multilis » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:57 pm

0beron wrote:
multilis wrote:Stanley was lucky to find feral dragons on way to FAQ which made FAQ easier to conquer.
Jillian is lucky to find feral dragon that flew into same hex when she needed to escape.
Charlie is likely behind no natural allies (gobwins) being found by Stanley's side.
Yes....because Charlie is helping his competition, possibly before he even knows she exists, and DEFINITELY before she is even remotely important to him.

Threat to Charlie is a different side that can take over the whole world, FAQ is a later "competition" problem (taken care of with Stanley?).

Foreshadowing that Haff knows of/fears Charlie and Charlie's archons are scouting Haff.

Charlie can hire predictomancers and lookomancers, spy on thinkograms, watch with cloaked archons. Lots of ways he could figure things out, even Wanda may be working with him right now. (Charlie and Wanda may have arranged giving Jillian what she needed to escape, planted suggestion, etc)
Last edited by multilis on Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby randomthought » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:58 pm

So, it's possible to tame a feral unit by offering it "rations", effectively paying its upkeep if it accepts? Would this be regarded as natural Hippiemancy?


I want to say it's natural Date-a-mancy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby randomthought » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:59 pm

Which is Hippiemancy. I am an idiot.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:02 pm

multilis wrote:Threat to Charlie is the side that can take over the whole world.

Actually I'd argue that Haffaton is a huge asset to Charlie. Haff needs to keep expanding in order to sack cities and capture income. Sides on their perimeter need to fight back. Charlie has customers on both sides, and comes out winning. Then when Haff is too big or no longer needs him, or the situations becomes impractical to continue, he executes a decapitation strike to take out the Ruler and any Heirs.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby multilis » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:08 pm

0beron wrote:
multilis wrote:Threat to Charlie is the side that can take over the whole world.

Actually I'd argue that Haffaton is a huge asset to Charlie. Haff needs to keep expanding in order to sack cities and capture income. Sides on their perimeter need to fight back. Charlie has customers on both sides, and comes out winning. Then when Haff is too big or no longer needs him, or the situations becomes impractical to continue, he executes a decapitation strike to take out the Ruler and any Heirs.

Haff knows Charlie is their biggest threat, eg to Jill "are you working for Charlie?" and the reaction to her reply.

Charlie may not be that strong yet.

Paranoid Charlie might think Haff is already too big, it could launch surprise attack on him, and he can't wipe it out directly without getting rest of world to become paranoid about him. So just like in book 2, he gets someone else to wipe it out. (#1 priority of Haff may already be finding a way to destroy Charlie)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:34 pm

Saladman wrote:
bladestorm wrote:
Lamech wrote:So what did we all learn today?

1) Enough rations completely clear upkeep needs.
...
I think the big one is rations can completely clear upkeep needs. With this it means a heavy duty farm could feed a whole side.

The rations are the upkeep. Instead of being paid for from a purse or treasury, it has to be foraged for, or mined, etc. Same rules as for natural allies that have no purse or treasury...


Sure, but I understood Lamech's point to be this is the first absolute statement of that we've had. Natural allies that had to be the case, and Side units working the same way was always quite possible, but then again rations might have only offset upkeep without paying the full bill. So expensive units like leveled casters or archons might have needed some amount of schmuckers. Its to your credit if you guessed it right to start, but I'm pretty certain this is the first sure knowledge of it.

And it keeps the forum's various self sufficiency hack ideas plausible. Speculative tri-mancer link theories for the win!
Indeed, rations just could reduce upkeep (reducing natural allies upkeep to 0), but it apparently can completely pay for it.


multilis wrote:Haff knows Charlie is their biggest threat, eg to Jill "are you working for Charlie?" and the reaction to her reply.
IIRC, they seemed to let Jill off the hook when they "realized" that Jill was working for Charlie. They notably consider Charlie not a threat.

0beron wrote:A unit's upkeep cost IS the cost of rations! So it's kind of a no-brainer that if you're able to find naturally occurring rations equal to the value of the upkeep, you're all set.
That raises a interesting question. What about units that can't eat? Lots of cloth golems don't seem to have mouths...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:39 pm

Lamech wrote:What about units that can't eat? Lots of cloth golems don't seem to have mouths...

And who says Golems cost upkeep at all? They're magical constructs that a caster spends Juice to create, given the precedent of Uncroaked requiring no upkeep, it follows that neither would Golems.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:50 pm

Y'know, i feel like the forest devoid of huntables might also be a sign of Haffaton's desperate position for providing upkeep to its vast side. Namely, i think they are so desperate for upkeep that they have been stripping their land clean of everything they can forage to keep upkeep down.

multilis wrote:
0beron wrote:
multilis wrote:Threat to Charlie is the side that can take over the whole world.

Actually I'd argue that Haffaton is a huge asset to Charlie. Haff needs to keep expanding in order to sack cities and capture income. Sides on their perimeter need to fight back. Charlie has customers on both sides, and comes out winning. Then when Haff is too big or no longer needs him, or the situations becomes impractical to continue, he executes a decapitation strike to take out the Ruler and any Heirs.

Haff knows Charlie is their biggest threat, eg to Jill "are you working for Charlie?" and the reaction to her reply.


Actually i think they would have given a different reaction if they thought Charlie was a threat... Namely they would have regarded Jillian with more disgust and been less friendly if not outright attacked her. No I think their reaction more than likely meant that they had already tried dealing with charlie for merc work, but likely could not afford his fees; so when they "found out" Jillian worked with Charlie, they dismissed trying to get a deal through her.

0beron wrote:And who says Golems cost upkeep at all? They're magical constructs that a caster spends Juice to create, given the precedent of Uncroaked requiring no upkeep, it follows that neither would Golems.

I don't recall it ever being said that uncroaked have zero upkeep; only the decrypted. As for Golems, its possible that they may have upkeep, but instead of food, the upkeep is what keeps their juice flowing that gives them movement
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Morni » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:53 pm

Lamech wrote:
0beron wrote:A unit's upkeep cost IS the cost of rations! So it's kind of a no-brainer that if you're able to find naturally occurring rations equal to the value of the upkeep, you're all set.
That raises a interesting question. What about units that can't eat? Lots of cloth golems don't seem to have mouths...


Maybe cloth golems doesn't require food/ration.. it might require stuffing-cloth/ration as upkeep. another kind of resource.

Archers could require for upkeep food and arrows or; maybe if the arrows are spent, than smuckers are used to create more arrows?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:09 pm

MonteCristo wrote:I don't recall it ever being said that uncroaked have zero upkeep; only the decrypted. As for Golems, its possible that they may have upkeep, but instead of food, the upkeep is what keeps their juice flowing that gives them movement

Fair point, but I'd argue we can deduce it given several examples:
  • Stanley cracks a joke about them being cheap to feed.
  • When Ansom is Decrypted, Parson correctly assumes that he has 0 upkeep, even though Upkeep is not a visible stat with his 3D Glasses.
  • If Uncroaked ate rations, the poison trap at Diecast might not have been possible.
So, it's not explicitly stated proof, but enough context to suggest it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:41 pm

0beron wrote:
Lamech wrote:What about units that can't eat? Lots of cloth golems don't seem to have mouths...

And who says Golems cost upkeep at all? They're magical constructs that a caster spends Juice to create, given the precedent of Uncroaked requiring no upkeep, it follows that neither would Golems.

Indeed, that would seem to be the answer. Which would of course, present a rather simple solution for a no upkeep side. Make your main unit golems.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby RichMan » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:48 pm

The power of the Titan's is great.

Consider turn order. You only notice another sides turn if they are within MOVE distance of you. What is the maximum MOVE of a unit?

Consider Unit A, with move A.M.
Within distance A.M there is a mount, it does not have to be aligned with. A. It can be captured or taimed and ridden on this turn.
The mount is unit B. with move B.M. Is there another mount C. within distance B.M?
Total possible distance so far is A.M+B.M+C.M you get the mount relay affect but over unaligned but mountable units.

-- BUG - Jillian was able to mount and leave the hex without it costing move.
It should cost Unit A at least 1 move to leave a hex while mounted. This would limit the number of remounts to A.M. Otherwise the number of remounts is infinite.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:00 pm

RichMan wrote:Consider turn order. You only notice another sides turn if they are within MOVE distance of you.
Wrong, the Titans/Natural Predictamancy is even MORE powerful than that. Battlespace calculations consider whether the units will ACTUALLY encounter one another, not just whether they CAN.

RichMan wrote:It should cost Unit A at least 1 move to leave a hex while mounted. This would limit the number of remounts to A.M. Otherwise the number of remounts is infinite.
I assume you were pointing this out because infinite remounts would be a huge problem when calculating Battlespace, but given what I pointed out above, we know it's more precise then that.
But yes, the number of remounts IS technically infinite, that is why the Dwagon Relay Parson devised actually works. In an exploitable mechanic (which requires a lot of mounts/resources), not a bug.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:08 pm

Oh also foraging apparently causes a move penalty.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby bladestorm » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:17 pm

RichMan wrote:The power of the Titan's is great.

Consider turn order. You only notice another sides turn if they are within MOVE distance of you. What is the maximum MOVE of a unit?

Consider Unit A, with move A.M.
Within distance A.M there is a mount, it does not have to be aligned with. A. It can be captured or taimed and ridden on this turn.
The mount is unit B. with move B.M. Is there another mount C. within distance B.M?
Total possible distance so far is A.M+B.M+C.M you get the mount relay affect but over unaligned but mountable units.

-- BUG - Jillian was able to mount and leave the hex without it costing move.
It should cost Unit A at least 1 move to leave a hex while mounted. This would limit the number of remounts to A.M. Otherwise the number of remounts is infinite.

In Warbarons, some units are able to add more move to the entire group once they stack. Maybe yellow dwagons have +groupmove?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:21 pm

RichMan wrote:It should cost Unit A at least 1 move to leave a hex while mounted. This would limit the number of remounts to A.M. Otherwise the number of remounts is infinite.
We know that the number of remounts is not limited. That's the whole point of the Dwagon Relay. The unit can expend up to it's full move getting to a Dwagon Relay point, then make it home on the same turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Whispri » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:25 pm

vintermann wrote:
Whispri wrote:If Haffaton do have Dwagons... Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....


If Haffaton do have dwagons, that wasn't one. Unled units without language aren't capable of pretending to be wild and be tamed. It doesn't have enough mind to be put under sophisticated thinkamancy either.

Not what I was thinking, although, since you mention it, "join Side 'X' after flying one hex to the north" is a rather simple order. And Side 'X' could be 'feral'.

No one in particular wrote:Re: Jillian's Escape
Much like Wanda's philosophy, we KNOW where things are going to end. Jillian will escape, and take Wanda with her somehow. Whether because Jillian convinces her to Turn and help with the escape, or Jillian captures her, we don't know... but we DO know Wanda will work for Faq, and end up getting Stanley to attack it. So we also know that Faq will survive long enough to get attacked by Gobwin Knob, instead of Haffaton.

I don't agree with any of that. Yes, there are stories told of Faq in the Future Era, but who says they have to be true and/or accurate? Thing is, Faq's Predictamancer is expecting Haffaton to end the Side and soon. And if Haffaton do indeed have Dwagons in their army, well that's a good tool for the job right there. The tool for the job according to the stories.

0beron wrote:And who says Golems cost upkeep at all? They're magical constructs that a caster spends Juice to create, given the precedent of Uncroaked requiring no upkeep, it follows that neither would Golems.

Actually, when Wanda became a Barbarian after the fall of Goodminton, she was able to sense the upkeep of the Units with her, all but her Horse being Uncroaked.

Which really does suggest that Uncroaked are a more expensive option than living Units if you can feed those Units without the need to pop rations. That may be easier said than done of course.

Lamech wrote:Oh also foraging apparently causes a move penalty.

As I recall, Wanda and company spotted game trails during the retreat from Kiloton but couldn't spare the move to do anything about it.
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