Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:31 pm

Whispri wrote:Actually, when Wanda became a Barbarian after the fall of Goodminton, she was able to sense the upkeep of the Units with her, all but her Horse being Uncroaked.
Upkeep can be 0.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Oberon » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:11 pm

Lamech wrote:So what did we all learn today?
5) Feral units move when they want.
Maybe not this one. Jillian had to double back twice, it could be the same hex. After she tamed it, it was a unit of her side, but being tamed by a fugitive it followed the same rules as Jillian as far as move order goes. Once tamed, Jillian was free to use its move to extend her own, just as a dwagon relay does.
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No one in particular wrote:Re: Jillian's Escape
Much like Wanda's philosophy, we KNOW where things are going to end. Jillian will escape, and take Wanda with her somehow. Whether because Jillian convinces her to Turn and help with the escape, or Jillian captures her, we don't know... but we DO know Wanda will work for Faq, and end up getting Stanley to attack it. So we also know that Faq will survive long enough to get attacked by Gobwin Knob, instead of Haffaton.

I don't agree with any of that. Yes, there are stories told of Faq in the Future Era, but who says they have to be true and/or accurate?
It's called a prequel for a reason. That reason isn't to set up an alternate timeline.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby vintermann » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:20 pm

Whispri wrote:
vintermann wrote:
Whispri wrote:If Haffaton do have Dwagons... Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....


If Haffaton do have dwagons, that wasn't one. Unled units without language aren't capable of pretending to be wild and be tamed. It doesn't have enough mind to be put under sophisticated thinkamancy either.

Not what I was thinking, although, since you mention it, "join Side 'X' after flying one hex to the north" is a rather simple order. And Side 'X' could be 'feral'.


No, I don't think it's a simple order. Try telling your dog to go out in the forest and become wild.

And even if you could command a unit to go feral/barbarian, you certainly couldn't count on the next unit meeting it being able to tame it. Or attack it. All in all it would be a very pointless thing to do.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby bladestorm » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:30 pm

vintermann wrote:No, I don't think it's a simple order. Try telling your dog to go out in the forest and become wild.

And even if you could command a unit to go feral/barbarian, you certainly couldn't count on the next unit meeting it being able to tame it. Or attack it. All in all it would be a very pointless thing to do.

My dog does that. The command is "Come back here". Stays feral until feeding time, but until then, treats everyone as a potential predator and runs form them. Apparently this is humorous for the dog.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby bladestorm » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:39 pm

multilis wrote:
0beron wrote:
multilis wrote:Stanley was lucky to find feral dragons on way to FAQ which made FAQ easier to conquer.
Jillian is lucky to find feral dragon that flew into same hex when she needed to escape.
Charlie is likely behind no natural allies (gobwins) being found by Stanley's side.
Yes....because Charlie is helping his competition, possibly before he even knows she exists, and DEFINITELY before she is even remotely important to him.

Threat to Charlie is a different side that can take over the whole world, FAQ is a later "competition" problem (taken care of with Stanley?).

Foreshadowing that Haff knows of/fears Charlie and Charlie's archons are scouting Haff.

Charlie can hire predictomancers and lookomancers, spy on thinkograms, watch with cloaked archons. Lots of ways he could figure things out, even Wanda may be working with him right now. (Charlie and Wanda may have arranged giving Jillian what she needed to escape, planted suggestion, etc)

I just took it as they recognized Jillian's group as mercenary, and by default that means associated with Charlescomm. Kinda like a side that has an Archon is assumed to have it from Charlescomm, rather than being one of the rare non-Charlescomm pops.

Which means if the New Faq managed to pop an Archon, they could completely wrecd Charlie's reputation.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby bladestorm » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:43 pm

Lamech wrote:
0beron wrote:
Lamech wrote:What about units that can't eat? Lots of cloth golems don't seem to have mouths...

And who says Golems cost upkeep at all? They're magical constructs that a caster spends Juice to create, given the precedent of Uncroaked requiring no upkeep, it follows that neither would Golems.

Indeed, that would seem to be the answer. Which would of course, present a rather simple solution for a no upkeep side. Make your main unit golems.

Maybe that's why Charlie has a lot of golems in his capital... leaves more resources available for those expensive Archons.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Housellama » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:57 pm

Lamech wrote:So what did we all learn today?

1) Enough rations completely clear upkeep needs.
2) Fugitive movement rules.
3) How to tame your dwagon.
4) Dwagons can survive off eating talking units.
5) Feral units move when they want.

I think the big one is rations can completely clear upkeep needs. With this it means a heavy duty farm could feed a whole side.


1. This was implied long ago, but it's nice to see it in black and white.
2. Fugitive rules in general! There was a question about what Side prisoners were considered to be. It appears that prisoners remain units of the Side they were from, but have a 'special status' that changes their place in the Turn Order.
3. I believe that this could be extended to feral units in general.
4. Again, I think this can be extended to feral units in general.
5. I'm not sure that we have enough solid information to assume this yet. The information we have certainly suggests that, but I wouldn't make that conclusion with just the data we have.

0beron wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:I don't recall it ever being said that uncroaked have zero upkeep; only the decrypted. As for Golems, its possible that they may have upkeep, but instead of food, the upkeep is what keeps their juice flowing that gives them movement

Fair point, but I'd argue we can deduce it given several examples:
  • Stanley cracks a joke about them being cheap to feed.
  • When Ansom is Decrypted, Parson correctly assumes that he has 0 upkeep, even though Upkeep is not a visible stat with his 3D Glasses.
  • If Uncroaked ate rations, the poison trap at Diecast might not have been possible.
So, it's not explicitly stated proof, but enough context to suggest it.


We don't know that upkeep for units is always 'paid' by food. I have always assumed that normal Uncroaked have upkeep. Otherwise, why would Parson and Wanda comment on it? Yes, normal Uncroaked decay, but that doesn't preclude them from having upkeep as well.

What puzzles me is if Uncroaked all decay eventually, how could those Haffaton troops still be waiting there? Do Uncroaked only decay in the field? Maybe Uncroaked only decay when their upkeep isn't paid? That would make sense. Since Decrypted have 0 upkeep, they will never decay.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby bladestorm » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:09 pm

No one in particular wrote:Re: Jillian's Escape
Much like Wanda's philosophy, we KNOW where things are going to end. Jillian will escape, and take Wanda with her somehow. Whether because Jillian convinces her to Turn and help with the escape, or Jillian captures her, we don't know... but we DO know Wanda will work for Faq, and end up getting Stanley to attack it. So we also know that Faq will survive long enough to get attacked by Gobwin Knob, instead of Haffaton.

We just know where the story ends, not the path leading to that ending. We know that Wanda ends up in Faq for a certain amount of time, but not that she turns because of Jillian. Jillian could be out in the field when Wanda joins Faq, for all we know. Or Wanda could beat Jillian to Faq, making for a rather unpleasant surprise when Jillian finally makes it there. There are also a lot of vagueries, such as the time frame from the fall of Haffaton and the fall of Faq, could GK have been a part of Haffaton once upon a time (perhaps under a different name), what causes the fall of Haffaton, or when Wanda gets the prediction about attuning.

I could definitely see Wanda finding Faq while Jillian was not within the city, getting in the door by dropping Jillian's name and providing 'proof' of friendliness by answering personal questions about the Princess, and infiltrating Faq that way. She could get her prediction about the tools while in the MK, and be foretold that a tool would cause the fall of Faq.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:20 pm

Housellama wrote:I have always assumed that normal Uncroaked have upkeep. Otherwise, why would Parson and Wanda comment on it?
Because the fact that he has his full stats and intelligence makes them question whether he might have upkeep. I suppose it could go both ways "Wow, he has zero upkeep in addition to being awesome" or "He's this awesome, and he still has zero upkeep like normal Uncroaked?"

Housellama wrote:What puzzles me is if Uncroaked all decay eventually, how could those Haffaton troops still be waiting there? Do Uncroaked only decay in the field? Maybe Uncroaked only decay when their upkeep isn't paid? That would make sense. Since Decrypted have 0 upkeep, they will never decay.
I'm not sure what you're referring to in the first part, all of the Haffaton troops Jillian saw today were living. As for the idea that upkeep prevents decay, that is ridiculous and defies canon. Decay time is dependent on how much Juice and time the caster devotes, and then spending Juice to extend it a little bit later. This has been stated several places.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Beeskee » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:00 pm

I laughed so much. Poor Jillian. Poor dwagon.

And, oh my, the rules on how captured units behave. Maybe even ALL the rules. It's like Christmas up in here.


I think Jillian threw up because of the erratic dwagon flying, not because of the rations.


We have had units mention 'minimum upkeep' so I still think there might be some nonzero value which is regularly considered the 'minimum' but that it can be reduced to zero under certain circumstances.


Another thing I missed, Jillian was able to mount a Dwagon when she had 0 move. I thought it cost a move to mount a unit, since we were told Ansom was too far from GK for Stanley to recall him to talk in person each day. It might still be possible that it costs move to change mounts, or the 'too far' simply meant Ansom would be exceeding a specific time limit and thus couldn't make it back in time. Or something else entirely that we haven't been shown yet.

I think I remember that the summer update involving Parson and his attempts at flying seemed to indicate that Parson wouldn't be able to mount a unit with 0 move, but I'm not sure if they meant it would be a problem because the Dwagon had 0 move, or because Parson had 0 move.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Housellama » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:29 pm

0beron wrote:
Housellama wrote:I have always assumed that normal Uncroaked have upkeep. Otherwise, why would Parson and Wanda comment on it?
Because the fact that he has his full stats and intelligence makes them question whether he might have upkeep. I suppose it could go both ways "Wow, he has zero upkeep in addition to being awesome" or "He's this awesome, and he still has zero upkeep like normal Uncroaked?"

Housellama wrote:What puzzles me is if Uncroaked all decay eventually, how could those Haffaton troops still be waiting there? Do Uncroaked only decay in the field? Maybe Uncroaked only decay when their upkeep isn't paid? That would make sense. Since Decrypted have 0 upkeep, they will never decay.
I'm not sure what you're referring to in the first part, all of the Haffaton troops Jillian saw today were living. As for the idea that upkeep prevents decay, that is ridiculous and defies canon. Decay time is dependent on how much Juice and time the caster devotes, and then spending Juice to extend it a little bit later. This has been stated several places.


The Uncroaked waiting in the Haffaton city that Jillian razed. The Uncroaked on the Zombie side of the PvZ defense. How long had they been there? Did Wanda spend a whole lot of juice for simple units like that for them to last for that long? Even if Uncroaked lasted for 20+ turns, Wanda would still spend most of her time traveling around Haffaton refreshing the Zombies, assuming that defense is present in a number of other cities as well. If that's the case, why set up a defense in a remote city that isn't longer lasting? Haffaton is huge. We know that. Jillian mentioned moving quite a number of turns into Haffaton before running into that city. If the zombies were temporary, why bother setting something up like that that would require your Croakamancer's full attention for a turn (and probably several turns of Move)? It doesn't make sense

We don't know for certain under what conditions Uncroaked decay. All of the Uncroaked we have seen have been in the field. I was positing that Uncroaked only decay in the field. I don't think we've ever seen Uncroaked in a city long enough to determine if decay occurs there as well. If it does not (which, I freely admit is a long shot), then perhaps upkeep in a city is what prevents the decay. That would explain the zombies in the Haffaton trap. They could be set up and then forgotten about, because as long as upkeep was paid, they wouldn't go away.

I was presented with data that didn't fit very well with the assumptions I already had. Therefore, I modified some of my assumptions. Sooner or later, my theory will be tested. It will either be right or wrong. If it's wrong, I'll modify them again. Science in action.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby bladestorm » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:49 pm

Housellama wrote:
0beron wrote:
Housellama wrote:I have always assumed that normal Uncroaked have upkeep. Otherwise, why would Parson and Wanda comment on it?
Because the fact that he has his full stats and intelligence makes them question whether he might have upkeep. I suppose it could go both ways "Wow, he has zero upkeep in addition to being awesome" or "He's this awesome, and he still has zero upkeep like normal Uncroaked?"

Housellama wrote:What puzzles me is if Uncroaked all decay eventually, how could those Haffaton troops still be waiting there? Do Uncroaked only decay in the field? Maybe Uncroaked only decay when their upkeep isn't paid? That would make sense. Since Decrypted have 0 upkeep, they will never decay.
I'm not sure what you're referring to in the first part, all of the Haffaton troops Jillian saw today were living. As for the idea that upkeep prevents decay, that is ridiculous and defies canon. Decay time is dependent on how much Juice and time the caster devotes, and then spending Juice to extend it a little bit later. This has been stated several places.


The Uncroaked waiting in the Haffaton city that Jillian razed. The Uncroaked on the Zombie side of the PvZ defense. How long had they been there? Did Wanda spend a whole lot of juice for simple units like that for them to last for that long? Even if Uncroaked lasted for 20+ turns, Wanda would still spend most of her time traveling around Haffaton refreshing the Zombies, assuming that defense is present in a number of other cities as well. If that's the case, why set up a defense in a remote city that isn't longer lasting? Haffaton is huge. We know that. Jillian mentioned moving quite a number of turns into Haffaton before running into that city. If the zombies were temporary, why bother setting something up like that that would require your Croakamancer's full attention for a turn (and probably several turns of Move)? It doesn't make sense

We don't know for certain under what conditions Uncroaked decay. All of the Uncroaked we have seen have been in the field. I was positing that Uncroaked only decay in the field. I don't think we've ever seen Uncroaked in a city long enough to determine if decay occurs there as well. If it does not (which, I freely admit is a long shot), then perhaps upkeep in a city is what prevents the decay. That would explain the zombies in the Haffaton trap. They could be set up and then forgotten about, because as long as upkeep was paid, they wouldn't go away.

I was presented with data that didn't fit very well with the assumptions I already had. Therefore, I modified some of my assumptions. Sooner or later, my theory will be tested. It will either be right or wrong. If it's wrong, I'll modify them again. Science in action.

Might just be a rules hack. If you provide the zombies with paid upkeep, they do not decay as quickly. So, provide food in the larder for them to count as their upkeep, but since they will never eat it, they can go on until they get hacked apart. Also, since they don't eat, you can poison the rations and just leave them.

Or, since Haffaton is always expanding, you can send replacement uncroaked to replace the ones that have started falling apart. Have Wanda mass uncroak an entire city, then have scouts or high-move mounts deliver the freshly minted uncroaked to their new duty station.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:53 pm

Housellama wrote:The Uncroaked waiting in the Haffaton city that Jillian razed...If the zombies were temporary, why bother setting something up like that that would require your Croakamancer's full attention for a turn (and probably several turns of Move)? It doesn't make sense.
The reason they bother is because it's their ONLY option. Some ways to "buff" it might be make it trapped as well, so there are corpses waiting to be rezed by an automated spell. Also, Wanda could visit a circuit of large cities, and the uncroaked she creates the fan out to surrounding cities, saving time.
EDIT: It's also possible they have some kind of link in place that allows her to do it remotely. Connecting her to a Lookamancer would do the trick.

Housellama wrote:We don't know for certain under what conditions Uncroaked decay.
Sorry, but yes we do. As I said previously, we know in Wanda's own words that Uncroaked decay no matter what, and she determines how quickly that is by deciding how much time and Juice to spend on them.
Wanda, on Page 6 Book 0 wrote:If I uncroak him, he would benefit from all of my attention, and all of the juice I can spare. The more carefully I cast, the fewer mistakes I might make, and the more he will retain of the power he had in life. I believe I could make him last as long as ten or twelve turns, and retain about half his levels and leadership.
Notice that she doesn't say "while afield" or any other qualifier. Add onto that the fact that her uncroaked continue to decay while Haffaton leaves them to "rot on the vine" in Goodminton city, and that she specifically spends juice to "touch them up" and make them last a little longer. Present era Wanda has done nothing to contradict this either. So sorry, but in simple terms, you're wrong and there is no wiggle room of ambiguity.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby ftl » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:09 pm

A reasonable method for Haffaton would be to have Wanda just spend her time uncroaking things. Warlords bring bodies to her from wherever there's bodies to be found, and then lead stacks of uncroaked to wherever they need to be - and then leave them there, unled, to last for however long they last until they decay into nothing. Maybe the mostly-decayed uncroaked in that city were placed there 10-15 turns ago, and would be replaced with a new bunch when they decay entirely (in another 5-10 turns or so).

We don't know how long Wanda makes them last nowadays it could be more than the 10-12 turns she could do before (since she's leveled up now, presumably).

It's not the same as being able to do uncroaking "remotely", but it would do - all it takes is a few living Warlords and maybe a few mounts to cart bodies back to Wanda and then lead stacks elsewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby BanzaiJoe » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:20 pm

Anybody want to go on a lion hunt? Gonna catch a big one?

"She rose and took up a familiar cross-country pace across the marsh—squish, squish, thump, squish, crunch, squish, squish. "
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:31 pm

Housellama wrote:
The Uncroaked waiting in the Haffaton city that Jillian razed. The Uncroaked on the Zombie side of the PvZ defense. How long had they been there? Did Wanda spend a whole lot of juice for simple units like that for them to last for that long? Even if Uncroaked lasted for 20+ turns, Wanda would still spend most of her time traveling around Haffaton refreshing the Zombies, assuming that defense is present in a number of other cities as well. If that's the case, why set up a defense in a remote city that isn't longer lasting? Haffaton is huge. We know that. Jillian mentioned moving quite a number of turns into Haffaton before running into that city. If the zombies were temporary, why bother setting something up like that that would require your Croakamancer's full attention for a turn (and probably several turns of Move)? It doesn't make sense

We don't know for certain under what conditions Uncroaked decay. All of the Uncroaked we have seen have been in the field. I was positing that Uncroaked only decay in the field. I don't think we've ever seen Uncroaked in a city long enough to determine if decay occurs there as well. If it does not (which, I freely admit is a long shot), then perhaps upkeep in a city is what prevents the decay. That would explain the zombies in the Haffaton trap. They could be set up and then forgotten about, because as long as upkeep was paid, they wouldn't go away.

I was presented with data that didn't fit very well with the assumptions I already had. Therefore, I modified some of my assumptions. Sooner or later, my theory will be tested. It will either be right or wrong. If it's wrong, I'll modify them again. Science in action.

This might help. You'll note that low level novice Wanda, gets infantry to last 20ish turns. Now at double(?) the level and a master class she can probably make them last a heck of a lot longer. And uncroaked do decay in cities.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Radagast » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:12 pm

Oberon wrote:
Lamech wrote:So what did we all learn today?
5) Feral units move when they want.
Maybe not this one. Jillian had to double back twice, it could be the same hex. After she tamed it, it was a unit of her side, but being tamed by a fugitive it followed the same rules as Jillian as far as move order goes. Once tamed, Jillian was free to use its move to extend her own, just as a dwagon relay does.


Actually, I think it's fairly clear that this is not the case... the dwagon definitely does not follow the fugitive rules, as it moves *after* the Haffaton infantry have moved to come and collect Jillian. Unless of course, that's just a loophole in the Fugitive rules.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Azukar » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:19 pm

Interesting... Do we know who the Ruler of Haffaton is, yet? Any clues?

Do we suspect it might be significant?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby Arky » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:36 pm

Just when the last update made me kind of like Jillian for the first time, we're back to "Jillian succeeds through unfathomable luck". Hmph.

Unless this is all building to a revelation that FAQ had a massive Luckamancy spell put on Princess Jillian whe she was popped, and it turns out that all her personal luck has been at the expense of the luck of her sides and allies.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 045

Postby No one in particular » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:37 pm

A theory about Diecast: It's not just a trap, it's an early alarm system.

A low-level, poorly defended city, on the outskirts of the empire... with a hidden surveillance system and drugged provisions?

Haffaton is reputedly a large side, so they can afford to have decoy cities out on the fringes of their empire. By presenting such a tempting target, Haffaton could lure an enemy into the open, use Wanda's mannequins to get a visual on them, and pick them up at their leisure once they've been incapacitated by the provisions.

I mean, hell! Why would their even be provisions in a city filled with Uncroaked and plants?
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