Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:31 pm

Hey guise, turns out my courtier was actually a Shockamancer in disguise this whole time!!
*is less thrilled about this than you might expect*
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:37 pm

Flash mob?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:39 pm

Worse
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:06 pm

Unrelated note, a discussion elsewhere on the forums about auto-disbanding reminded me of this:
Intermission 35 wrote:When a city had a Warlord to manage it, costs were lowered for things like city improvement and production of extra equipment and provisions. It also increased the amount of Shmuckers the city produced, and reduced the upkeep for units which spent the entire turn in the city.

So, it seems like having a city manager does more than we have accounted for so far. I think the reduced upkeep bit would be an annoying bit of extra detail to deal with. What about the other stuff? Although it's not exactly the same, I think the fact that Commanders can deviate from the City Template slightly addresses the upgrade issue. Maybe a City that has a manager produces 1 extra Loose Material per city level?
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:05 pm

Per city level? That's quite a big difference, considering a city makes one Loose Material per city level on its own. If having a courtier effectively doubles that then there's no real point in taking the storeroom upgrades. Just one extra LM I think. Maybe it upgrades to 2 at a higher level, whether that be as a result of city level or courtier level. Probably city level though.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:15 pm

0beron wrote:
Intermission 35 wrote:reduced the upkeep for units which spent the entire turn in the city.
I think the reduced upkeep bit would be an annoying bit of extra detail to deal with.
Given that we already have upkeep reduction mechanics from Farms (which we've implemented in two different ways, no less), which is to say that I already deal with that exact thing every budget, I wouldn't consider that an annoying extra detail at all.
Intermission 35 wrote:costs were lowered for things like city improvement and production of extra equipment and provisions
The phrasing here implies to me that there are ways for cities to pop extra equipment and provisions deliberately, at a cost- that is, spend Schmuckers to get Loose Materials, in our terms. Maybe even spend Schmuckers to get Nice Things, which would make Fabrication less valuable but still useful since it lets you get things which would otherwise cost you for free. A managed city would have a reduced cost for this. Something along the lines of 100 Schmuckers per popped Loose Material seems appropriate, and then reduce that cost by something like 5% per level of the managing unit.

Also, note that we currently mostly use Courtiers to manage cities- not Warlords, which the update specifically mentions as being the unit to cause those effects. There could well be differences between what happens if you have a Warlord managing a city and if you have a Courtier do it.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:36 pm

Exate wrote:Given that we already have upkeep reduction mechanics from Farms (which we've implemented in two different ways, no less), which is to say that I already deal with that exact thing every budget, I wouldn't consider that an annoying extra detail at all.
True, but Farms got easier by making them a flat rebate, whereas this would require you to track specific units and apply a % discount...also there's the fact that upkeep is paid at start of turn.
Exate wrote:[Stuff about Schmuckers > Loose Materials]
Not a bad idea. The numbers might need tweaking, but the concept seems logical.
Exate wrote:Also, note that we currently mostly use Courtiers to manage cities- not Warlords...
Courtiers are largely undefined in the comic. They obviously must have a purpose, otherwise they wouldn't exist, so for the purposes of the game, we've assumed that when it comes to city management, they're the same.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:37 pm

0beron wrote:True, but Farms got easier by making them a flat rebate, whereas this would require you to track specific units and apply a % discount...also there's the fact that upkeep is paid at start of turn.
This doesn't actually require you to track specific units and apply a % discount, any more than the farms do. Both "reduce upkeep". As for upkeep being paid at the start of turn, just apply it to all units which didn't move in the prior turn and are in the city. Easy enough.

0beron wrote:Courtiers are largely undefined in the comic. They obviously must have a purpose, otherwise they wouldn't exist, so for the purposes of the game, we've assumed that when it comes to city management, they're the same.
That may be what we've done, but it does not necessarily have to be what we will always do. And courtiers are not so ill-defined as all that; there is quite a bit of implied information in one of the updates from Don's point of view:
Book 2 - Text 16 wrote:The court of Transylvito wasn't much of a court, since there were no courtiers.

Don had never trusted them. When he took the throne, he had inherited a few advisers and officiants, of course. But after his son's mistake, he'd ordered them off on various diplomatic outings until they'd all been croaked or turned. Slimy bunch.

He had never popped any replacements. It was a risky extravagance to use only warlords for city management, but it was part of his system.
...
Unfortunately at this moment in his reign, having only casters and warlords for advisers was a problem. For one thing, most of Transylvito's cities were going unmanaged, because the warlords were now in shorter supply. That was not such a big deal, but it did waste Shmuckers. Benjamin was on his case about it.
So it's fairly clear that either warlords or courtiers can manage cities, the effects of which might be identical or might not- it's definitely more cash-efficient to use courtiers, but that could be because the courtiers have less upkeep or for some other reason. Courtiers may also have other purposes- certainly, we use them for building resource points, but resource points as we've implemented them are rather dissimilar to anything in the comic.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:47 pm

Well as I'm reading it, the Manager Upkeep bonus sounds like a percentage. And while you wouldn't "technically" have to track individual units, you'd have to know how many didn't leave cities the previous turn.

And you are totally right about the fact that we could change the Courtier/Warlord system. I was just pointing out how it had been done so you remembered context.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:17 pm

You're right, the resource points are kind of a carry over from the alpha edition of the game.

But we know precious little about how cities actually function so, they will serve as placeholder rules for now. The goal is to make a faithful remake of erfworld, but we can only go so far on limited information. :)
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:23 pm

I'd have thought that, in terms of increased efficiency and the like, courtiers and warlords are exactly the same in terms of bonuses, the difference lies elsewhere and is pretty obvious. Warlords deal with war. They COULD manage cities, but they would be far more effective sending them out into the world leading stacks into battle. Courtiers have no predilection for war, and instead are more interested in politics or something similar. Slately's men like Duke Antium spring to mind. Men who go around doing little more than boast and brag about whatever they can. They're yes-men, which is how Slately can recognize his court deal with lies and Don finds them to be slimey and unecessary. In short, I'd say the difference is all in the mentality...and maybe the upkeep too.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Koliup » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:45 pm

Yes-men sounds like something that courtiers should be. The typical 'mindless blue-blood' sort of deal.
Speaking of cities producing things, like Loose Materials and whatnot. How is this play-test handling siege engines, like towers?
We know so far that they're popped for units with the Digger special(a mix of siege and really slow burrowing?), to protect them from enemy defenses.
How will they be handled?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:26 pm

No idea. Great and wonderous Titans?
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:00 pm

I assumed they would be crafted from Loose Materials.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:11 am

Might require a lot of materials, forcing it to be constructed over multiple turns. This makes logical sense and on that basis I'm for it.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Metheglin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:18 am

RL ate me. I'll have all my turns updated tomorrow, I swear!
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:50 am

Okay, so let's consider what examples of Siege Engines and the like we know about.
We have seen Siege Towers in tBfGK, and when Jillian Rebuilds FAQ, there is a mention of "Defense Engines with no men to man them yet.". I take that to mean we have can have Towers, and Catapults/Batista. It also seems to imply that cities can automatically produce these things, without need of Fabrication units?
I'd estimate that FAQ was only about 10 turns old when Vinny mentions those defensive engines, because that is 27 AW, and Jillian was in Transylvito during 12 AW. So it seems those things either popped with the city as she leveled it up, or they can be built rather quickly.

So it seems logical that Cities can automatically spend Loose Materials to build Siege Engines, even without supervision by a Fabricate unit. Think of it as a separate production queue just like popping units. Now all we have to do is figure out what each type could cost, and how units with Fabricate may/may not affect the mechanic.

I'm thinking we treat them like Special Units. Ballista (powerful Ranged attack) and Catapults (weak Siege/AoE attack) are A/B and cost 2 Materials each. Trebuchet (Strong Siege/AoE attack) are C and cost 4 each, and Siege Towers (Infantry can climb the Walls) are like a D and cost 5 each. They would have set stats that are universal to all sides, but perhaps Fabrication units could supervise the build to give it different stats.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:59 am

0beron wrote:It also seems to imply that cities can automatically produce these things, without need of Fabrication units?
My stance on this would be that cities can spend Schmuckers to produce anything that a unit with Fabricate can produce- it just costs instead of being free.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:08 am

I'd disagree with that as a city doesn't have the finesse a pair of hands does in regards to making smaller items. Bigger things, like the siege engines, money would be needed in addition to loose materials to cover the "labour" costs.
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Re: Erfgame 3 (closed) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:10 am

Well Erfworld doesn't have a uterus but it still manages to pop out thousands of units a day :p
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