Book 2 – Page 91

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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Miryafa » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:53 pm

Very cool.

This has probably been suggested already, but it seems to me that if Parson is going to end war on Erf, then as an arms dealer, Charlie would be completely opposed to that, because his livelyhood depends the existence of war. Am I mistaken?

Also, it seems like this can only end with Parson stuck in the city saying "Well, I wanted to be right in the thick of things, and now I am. Great."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Oberon » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:55 pm

querzis wrote:Yeah no, not at all. Nevermind the fact that right now, attacking during negociations is a war crime in any events everywhere in the world, [...] I'm a bloody historian (or at least I got a diploma in it...cant deny I havent been able to get a job) so yeah governments dont attack during negociations, if you dont believe me start looking for government or countries who did.
You really don't keep up with current events, do you? And in this case, current events can be said to stretch back at least 30 years. Tell me, how many times has there been a cease fire "for parley" between Israel and any given Islamic nation or political entity, which was disrupted because one side or the other decided to lob a few missiles or conduct a few raids? Also, something being labeled a "war crime" even according to multinational treaty (of which there are several) has a very slim to vanishing none impact on whether that act will be prevented or even punished. Some have claimed that the US invasion of Iraq after 9/11 was a war crime. Without agreeing or disagreeing with that claim for the purposes of avoiding a political debate and derailment of this thread, anyone can see that there has been absolutely zero impact on policy due to that claim. Even such prohibited weapons as poison gas have been used without penalty by nations such as Iraq. Iraq had used gas against Iran and it's own population for years with no repercussions other than perhaps a toothless sanction or two. But The first Gulf War had nothing to due with that war crime, did it? And after the first Gulf War, when Iraq did indeed destroy all of their chemical weapons as required, they were attacked on the false premise of still having those WMDs.

I'm fairly disappointed in your historical acumen as someone who claims to have a degree in history. I'm just an armchair historian and tabletop miniatures buff who likes to shove around painted lead in recreations of historical battles. That's given me a decent grasp of history, especially the events surrounding wars, and military tactics. Treachery is a fine and long standing military/political tradition. Lining up your troops and firing "honorably" at each other hasn't been a part of Stupidworld warfare since before the American Revolution.

And as someone who claims to have a collage degree, unless English is a second language for you, you ought to go back to school for spelling and grammar. "[A]ttacking during negociations is a war crime in any events everywhere in the world." Damn. It's hard to believe that you passed a college level English class. Everyone makes the occasional typo or mangles a sentence, but your posts are just hard to read.

querzis wrote:
Oberon wrote:
querzis wrote:If Parson didnt wanna Parley with them, he just had to refuse the negociations, not use them as an opening.
You're forgetting that it was Jetstone who refused to parley with the GK appointee, and insisted on speaking to someone else. That effectively ended the parley or negotiations.
...they did not refuse Ossomer, they were still talking to him when Parson started the attack. Sure they asked to talk to Parson but thats not refusing to Parley under absolutely any convention.
You're right, I've re-read that strip and it was just as Tram demanded to speak to Parson that the crap started to fall. Parson did indeed plan to violate parley from the first. There may have been nothing Tram could have said to prevent that.
querzis wrote:Attacking during negociations would have been suicide for most of our history, even if you win the battle, all your allies are gonna leave you and you,re gonna get tons of new enemies.
And right back to this again. You are a pie in the sky romantic. The real world has very seldom operated that way. The strong almost always retain their allies even after betraying someone else, because no one likes to piss off a strong nation. Any objectionable actions get whitewashed in diplomatic double talk, and the fault is placed on the loser or the act is made to look like it was forced or necessary or not so bad after all. As an example, Bush Jr. today will admit that Iraq had no WMD. But he'll say that there was actionable intelligence that made him think that Iraq did indeed have WMD, and that the war on Iraq was still justified for humanitarian reasons. Agree or disagree with him on any point as you wish, but that's the political (and historical) truth of the matter.

querzis wrote:hell, considering the fact that one of the main reason there is this big Alliance against them right now is mostly because of Wanda and her decrypted
Oh, really? And that must have been the reason for the first "big Alliance against them" as well, right?
How using capslock wins arguments:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:21 am

Morni wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:
sheepfly wrote:So it STILL hasn't occurred to Slately or Tramennis to offer surrender in exchange for leniency from the new chief warlord of GK? Not surprising, given their outrage at Parson's lack of "honor" and failure to recognize how easily he can defeat linear thinkers, but kind of sad.

Also, it's hard to see how changing the capital would change ANYTHING. Sure, the portal closes. If GK takes the garrison, the exact same thing would happen. Win or win slowly, Parson is trapped in Spacerock for the turn. Charlie's suggested strategy doesn't actually change anything for Jetstone or Parson, unless Tramennis was indeed correct that Charlie fears not a continuation of hostilities, but an alliance between Jetstone & GK.


As we saw in Book One, alliances all share the same turn, and making/breaking alliances mid-turn DOES work. We saw a group break alliance in order to get an extra turn.

The key thing is that if Parson takes the city, Jetstone's turn ends. However, if Slately uses the throne to change the capital, then Jetstone's ally, Charlie, can still act on their turn.


Charlie will not ally with the RCC2 for 1 reason. Charlies natural turn order is before GK and RCC. if he allies himself.. he looses 1 turn. here's the why
  • He's turn passed already, Charlie's troop is already at 0 movement. They can't come in
  • if he allies now, his next movement will be after GK
  • if Charlie wants to go before GK he has to be un-allied


If he comes in now, he will be able to act on RCC's turn as well, as he will have changed his turn order to coincide with RCC which is the current turn.
We've seen something similar happen in book one: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_93
So he doesn't lose a turn, he moves his turn up in the turn order to be before GK
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:24 am

Pindanin wrote:Charlie will then kill Hamstard.


I assume you mean Hamster.

Parson Gotti is the protagonist of the story. His name is an anagram for "Protagonist". So the odds of his being taken out are pretty much nil.

...or did you actually mean Hamstard, the character from Parson's webcomic? Because that would be REALLY weird.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby No one in particular » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:50 am

DoctorJest wrote:...or did you actually mean Hamstard, the character from Parson's webcomic? Because that would be REALLY weird.


... I'd pay to see that. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Lamech » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:59 am

No one in particular wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:...or did you actually mean Hamstard, the character from Parson's webcomic? Because that would be REALLY weird.


... I'd pay to see that. :D

Probably some sort of deadly signamancy summons. And since Parson is a hippiemancer... I really hope this happens.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby drachefly » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:15 am

querzis wrote: Nevermind the fact that right now, attacking during negociations is a war crime in any events everywhere in the world, the most famous example of someone being attacked during negociations was Genghis Khan and his mongol horde of all people. He was negociating with the Khwarezmid Empire and then the empire decided to attack a mongol caravan and its envoy and send back the mongol ambassador head to Genghis Khan. ...


Ah - attacking the people you're negotiating with. THAT's a crime. Fighting during negotiations is most certainly not. The book 1 false parley was a violation. The fighting during book 2, not really. Ossomer - the one sent to talk - was never ordered to engage, and the attack on the tower was not during any negotiations.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Beeskee » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:20 am

As some have pointed out, technically Jetstone violated parley first when their ally, Faq, forced an end to GK's turn during negotiations. By the "anything goes" rules, Parson is justified in doing anything he likes after that point. Yes, he could have taken the high road and tried to chat with Tramennis, but we saw what Tram had in mind as a fair deal, and Parson couldn't possibly take it. Though if he gets an actual chance to talk with Tram, he might work out a New Deal.

And until that whole kerfuffle happened, Parson had essentially been in charge of walking around GK and playing strategy games, and not much else. He had little to no say in anything that was going on, anywhere. Even Wanda just treated him like a fancy Mathamancer, and Stanley didn't teach him much, if anything, about being a Warlord or managing a side.


Miryafa wrote:This has probably been suggested already, but it seems to me that if Parson is going to end war on Erf, then as an arms dealer, Charlie would be completely opposed to that, because his livelyhood depends the existence of war. Am I mistaken?


You're spot on. Charlie has a lot invested in the status staying quo, and most likely has had some level of influence on keeping it that way even before Parson arrived on the scene. If GK takes over the world, Charlie has no customers except them. And though I am willing to bet Parson could figure out how to make it even more profitable for Charlie than it is now, to Charlie it's a huge unknown. And welcome to the forums! :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Morni » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:25 am

DoctorJest wrote:
Morni wrote:
Charlie will not ally with the RCC2 for 1 reason. Charlies natural turn order is before GK and RCC. if he allies himself.. he looses 1 turn. here's the why
  • He's turn passed already, Charlie's troop is already at 0 movement. They can't come in
  • if he allies now, his next movement will be after GK
  • if Charlie wants to go before GK he has to be un-allied


If he comes in now, he will be able to act on RCC's turn as well, as he will have changed his turn order to coincide with RCC which is the current turn.
We've seen something similar happen in book one: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_93
So he doesn't lose a turn, he moves his turn up in the turn order to be before GK


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F121.jpg
From the last panel here. when Charlie aligns himself with the RCC during the RCC turns, Charlie's unit has 0 movement. Their turned already happened, so the movement point is set to 0. This is exactly what happen to the GK force in the fight for spacerock the city, i just noticed that.

So if he allies himself with the RCC he won't be able to move before GK
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Goshen » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:23 am

(Apologies if this has already been said.)

Charlie making no formal alliance with Johnstone could prove crucial once Tram is king. I get that Charlie may not have wanted to ally, to preserve his place in the turn order. But that leaves Tram free to ally with Parson.

Charlie would see that as a horrible double cross, of course, and Tram wouldn't do it, unless he thought it the best move. But it is his natural instinct, and he see GK as the stronger side, at least until recently.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Lamech » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:37 am

Beeskee wrote:As some have pointed out, technically Jetstone violated parley first when their ally, Faq, forced an end to GK's turn during negotiations. By the "anything goes" rules, Parson is justified in doing anything he likes after that point. Yes, he could have taken the high road and tried to chat with Tramennis, but we saw what Tram had in mind as a fair deal, and Parson couldn't possibly take it. Though if he gets an actual chance to talk with Tram, he might work out a New Deal.

Actually, the first violation was either Beau, or Jillian's attack on Jitterai. (Not sure which.) The second parley violation was the second of those. The third (although very minor) parley violation was Jillian attacking GK equipment when talking with Ansom. KIngworld was actually more a violation of an negotiated agreement.

You know the ironic thing is Parson can just lie about the treachery perpetrated upon Ansom, and claim the royals started it. "Charlie says I betrayed Ansom? Yeah, I dueled him. Kicked his ass, with my artifact sword."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Kreistor » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:00 am

It doesn't matter if Parson wins GK this turn or loses. Parson is dead if he loses.

He faces Charlescomm if he wins. Charlie's Turn order is before GK. And we know Charlie has overwhelming forces he can bring to bear. Parson cannot escape Spacerock, except through the MK.

There is now only one way out.

1) Parson needs to win Spacerock.
2) Stanley needs to make Spacerock the Capital.
3) Wanda and the other casters need to re-enter Spacerock.
4) Wanda decrypts EVERYTHING!
5) Parson must defend Spacerock against Charlie.

Every other future winds up with Parson dead or captured. I do not see any other way for the story to go forward, without the entire paradigm shifting. I do not believe Rob has any intention of that, since Parson as Perfect Warlord fails to be proven.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Morni » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:05 am

Kreistor wrote:It doesn't matter if Parson wins GK this turn or loses. Parson is dead if he loses.

He faces Charlescomm if he wins. Charlie's Turn order is before GK. And we know Charlie has overwhelming forces he can bring to bear. Parson cannot escape Spacerock, except through the MK.

There is now only one way out.

1) Parson needs to win Spacerock.
2) Stanley needs to make Spacerock the Capital.
3) Wanda and the other casters need to re-enter Spacerock.
4) Wanda decrypts EVERYTHING!
5) Parson must defend Spacerock against Charlie.

Every other future winds up with Parson dead or captured. I do not see any other way for the story to go forward, without the entire paradigm shifting. I do not believe Rob has any intention of that, since Parson as Perfect Warlord fails to be proven.


Here we assume that Charlie has overwhelming force. He might not have the force required.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:09 am

Kreistor wrote:There is now only one way out.
...
2) Stanley needs to make Spacerock the Capital.
3) Wanda and the other casters need to re-enter Spacerock.

I fail to see why number 2 is needed for 3 to occur. There is no reason to make Spacerock the Capital of GK, Gobwin Knob City is a better city. Add to that the fact that the all GK's casters are already WITH Parson and can enter Spacerock with him, so 2 is not needed for 3 to occur.
On top of that, I'm thinking it is more likely Spacerock will become the Capital of a NEW side, ruled by Wanda or Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby effataigus » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:13 am

0beron wrote:
Lamech wrote:He should have be paying attention.
And...how is he supposed to pay attention? Maggie is out of juice, he has no way to know what's happening in Spacerock.


I'm not disagreeing, but could someone remind me where Maggie said she was out of juice? Also recall that she was a-spending that juice arranging for Parson's jaunt through TMK.

No one in particular wrote:
Lamech wrote:He should have be paying attention.
Paying attention to WHAT? From Parson's point of view, he gave the command to "Food Fight" to Wanda, then immediately headed to the Portal ...


zeroberon wrote:
lamech wrote:Also there was no reason not to topple the tower. If the tower fall what would be the blow back? They win?
If the Tower had fallen with Slately still in it, Jetstone would have ended, thus closing the portal and preventing Parson from going through.

Woopsies! You guys are unwittingly arguing his point. Remember, he's arguing from the standpoint that Parson is over-prioritizing going through that portal... and hey look, in your words this poor choice has limited GK's options (zeroberon) and has forced Parson to take his head out of the game (No one).

On a related (but not dependent) note, even if you, for some other reason, think that GK should have not brought down the tower... imagine what would have happened if the force that took the portal room seized the initiative and also pushed up that tower instead of chilling underground and separating the Decrypted Lord from the decrypted. Parson's plan was several distinct flavors of tactically bad IMO.


zeroberon wrote:Sure GK would win the battle then, but there is still the GK column waiting on the road as sitting ducks, with Hagar (and possibly Charlie) still nearby as a threat. So even if they win the battle of Spacerock, they still "need" Parson there to make sure they keep it.
GK column on the road? I don't mean to be a downer, but they're dead. :( Like really dead. Decrypted THEN dusted.

Hagar is thrashed and low on leadership, and would only provide bodies for GK to decrypt if they attacked. Charlie is a threat IMO, but we're not supposed to know that yet ;) and I'm pretty sure GK would be in a better place to deal with Charlescomm aggression if Parson hadn't pulled this stunt.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby effataigus » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:21 am

Oberon wrote:
querzis wrote:...
...


drachefly wrote:
querzis wrote:...
...


I think you guys are missing the easier argument against this that doesn't require a subjective interpretation of history:

This isn't stupidworld. Food pops at dawn. Our assumptions from living Earth are, for the most part, invalid.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby Lamech » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:27 am

effataigus wrote:
Hagar is thrashed and low on leadership, and would only provide bodies for GK to decrypt if they attacked. Charlie is a threat IMO, but we're not supposed to know that yet ;) and I'm pretty sure GK would be in a better place to deal with Charlescomm aggression if Parson hadn't pulled this stunt.

More to the point, I doubt that Parson's small bonus will outweigh the damage the MK could do if they decided to put pressure on GK. Let see what could happen:
1) Luckamancers hex GK into the ground.
2) Actually, I think 1 outweighs Parson's small bonus by itself. And there are 22 other caster types to annoy. Granted they aren't all as behind the scenes types as luckamancers, but still.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby effataigus » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:29 am

effataigus wrote:Woopsies! You guys are unwittingly arguing his point. Remember, he's arguing from the standpoint that Parson is over-prioritizing going through that portal... and hey look, in your words this poor choice has limited GK's options (zeroberon) and has forced Parson to take his head out of the game (No one).


I should admit that No one in particular did offer a few ideas as to why Parson might want to be there in the text I cut out... just wanted to point out that arguing that he was rushing wasn't helping the overall point.

Also, in Parson's defense, this is all going down relatively quickly, I imagine I would also be frustrated if I was more than armchair directing this battle and wasn't seeing the comic panels, and then there's the whole guilt-suicide pact thing Parson has with GK's units. It makes some sense for him to want to go, I just feel it was a tactically poor decision (that will probably work out fine for him ultimately being the protagionist).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:34 am

effataigus wrote:I'm not disagreeing, but could someone remind me where Maggie said she was out of juice? Also recall that she was a-spending that juice arranging for Parson's jaunt through TMK.
That's the whole REASON she ran into the MK, she has no juice left to converse remotely. As for how she spent it, a very small portion of it was spent on Parson. She initially made one voice-only thinkagram to Issac before giving Parson the OK, and then a brief visual thinkagram once Parson ran into trouble. The bulk was used doing her normal duties.

effataigus wrote:You guys are unwittingly arguing [Lamech's] point. Remember, he's arguing from the standpoint that Parson is over-prioritizing going through that portal...
Fair point, but that's his opinion and I think he's wrong, it IS important Parson goes through. With Maggie out of juice, and Charlie's intervention making the combat go pear-shaped, Parson has to be there and see in order to command and come up with a plan because he is otherwise blind, and even Parson's tiny bonus makes a difference that they have no choice but to take advantage of. So yes, bringing down the Tower would have had bad consequences.

effataigus wrote:GK column on the road? I don't mean to be a downer, but they're dead. :( Like really dead. Decrypted THEN dusted.
Wait seriously? I thought Haggar had to pull out cus they had lost too much, so I was under the impression there's still like half a column of basically unled infantry waiting back there. And looking back skimming the archives, nothing really suggests otherwise.

effataigus wrote:Charlie is a threat IMO, but we're not supposed to know that yet ;)
....we ALWAYS know Charlie is a threat LOLOLOL. Parson is never going to count him out of the game until he's dead.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 91

Postby effataigus » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:51 am

zeroberon wrote:
effataigus wrote:I'm not disagreeing, but could someone remind me where Maggie said she was out of juice? Also recall that she was a-spending that juice arranging for Parson's jaunt through TMK.
That's the whole REASON she ran into the MK, she has no juice left to converse remotely. As for how she spent it, a very small portion of it was spent on Parson.


maggie wrote:Lord the situation is increasingly complex. Perhaps it would be better if I go there in person.

First, you'll note that I started with "I'm not disagreeing." Second, note Maggie never said "I'm out of juice" there. She said "the situation is increasingly complex." I am still of the opinion that she said she's low on juice elsewhere, but I can't recall/find where, and I'm a little worried that this is something the forum invented via repeated unsupported statements of false assumptions. I'm asking to be proved wrong/right here, not argued against.

zeroberon wrote:
effataigus wrote:GK column on the road? I don't mean to be a downer, but they're dead. :( Like really dead. Decrypted THEN dusted.
Wait seriously? I thought Haggar had to pull out cus they had lost too much, so I was under the impression there's still like half a column of basically unled infantry waiting back there. And looking back skimming the archives, nothing really suggests otherwise.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -05-09.png
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -05-14.jpg
maggie wrote:I'm afraid the rest of the forces in the hex can be presumed overrun.
Here, methinks overrun is slang for "murdered till they died from it."
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