Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:35 pm

0beron wrote:
LTDave wrote:But it certainly puts paid to the idea that Wanda is dancing off to the frontier every other turn to uncroak some minor enemies. The frontier is clearly a very long way off, and Haffaton doesn't have "lots of flyers", and the whole "swap mounts and fly again" Dwago Chain idea won't come up for a few hundred turns...

...there ARE such things as walking Mounts :p And many people have suggested that bodies are brought BACK to her so she can uncroak them in the capital.

I'm still a fan of the really big hat idea. I bet if you max sized Slately's hat you could fit a whole body in their. Or at least a body in only a few pieces. I doubt it would work for units though...

Oh and why aren't hats used for supply lines more? Pull rations, arrows or whatever out of them. Bombs, scrolls etc. You could have a whole arsenal available to where ever a hat is.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby cloudbreaker » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:02 pm

Lamech wrote:
0beron wrote:
LTDave wrote:But it certainly puts paid to the idea that Wanda is dancing off to the frontier every other turn to uncroak some minor enemies. The frontier is clearly a very long way off, and Haffaton doesn't have "lots of flyers", and the whole "swap mounts and fly again" Dwago Chain idea won't come up for a few hundred turns...

...there ARE such things as walking Mounts :p And many people have suggested that bodies are brought BACK to her so she can uncroak them in the capital.

I'm still a fan of the really big hat idea. I bet if you max sized Slately's hat you could fit a whole body in their. Or at least a body in only a few pieces. I doubt it would work for units though...

Oh and why aren't hats used for supply lines more? Pull rations, arrows or whatever out of them. Bombs, scrolls etc. You could have a whole arsenal available to where ever a hat is.

Now you got me imagining a pirate hat mage pulling harpoons out of his hat and throwing them at fail whales. Thanks.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby LTDave » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:39 pm

cloudbreaker wrote:
We know Haffaton has a lot of ships at their capitol, so the probably have a lot of ships elsewhere as well. So a travel chain of ships can probably be used to reach a lot of places. Also, we now know that Turnamancers can create moving vehicles, and it seemed implied that these vehicles weren't only restricted to water travel, like the boat Jillian saw. Maybe Wand has an automobile.


I think that it's the whole "travel chain" idea that was invented by Parson Gotti. Isn't that why Jetstone were so outraged by it?
I am aware that there are other kinds of mounts, and that Wanda isn't walking everywhere.
What I'm saying is that prior to Parson arriving, no one thought, hey, let's ride this sawhorse as far as we can, then get on another one, and so on. That's the concept that is original to the Player.
If that assumption is true, then how far is Wanda getting in a turn or two? Not far is my answer. And Haffaton is huge. Crazy Huge. Jillian's been on the run for a while, on foot and now in the air, and isn't close to the border (as far as we know).

On a totally different point, I don't think the Archons were talking to Haffaton, but to Charlie. And I don't think Charlie spoke to Haffaton at all, but simply said 'forget about it.'
If Charlie rings up Haffaton and says "Hey, we've run into a fugitive warlord on a Dwagon somewhere in your Empire", then Haffaton are going to say "Well that's interesting. What are you doing in our Empire?"
I think Charlie just says to his Archons - move on and do your job. If you get seen in Haffaton, we have a problem.

Plus, how good is that Dwagons nose to sniff them out in the storm when they're veiled?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Beeskee » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:55 pm

Saladman wrote:Have we seen Transylvito yet in Inner Peace though?


We have. Jillian mentioned that they bordered the one part of Faq that wasn't surrounded by Haffaton. I think they're on the southern edge of Faq's territory, but I'm not certain. She also mentioned the reason she didn't go through there is that you just did NOT take flying units through Transylvito airspace. Presumably since a lot of their units have the flying special.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:02 pm

Beeskee wrote:
Saladman wrote:Have we seen Transylvito yet in Inner Peace though?


We have. Jillian mentioned that they bordered the one part of Faq that wasn't surrounded by Haffaton. I think they're on the southern edge of Faq's territory, but I'm not certain. She also mentioned the reason she didn't go through there is that you just did NOT take flying units through Transylvito airspace. Presumably since a lot of their units have the flying special.

Doombats everywhere. Their whole shtick is taming bats and swarming with them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Magothys » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:41 pm

The weather was wild up here. It rained sideways, even upward at times.


I'm guessing this is a reference to Ollie Williams?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Aquillion » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:36 am

Radagast wrote:Kinda odd... you would think Charlie would try to make at least a little money off the deal. After all, after this turn, the info becomes worthless. Why not earn whatever you can from it even if it's not very much?

So, if it's true that Haffaton rejected the offer (if the offer was even made?)... they either a) already know exactly where Jillian is or b) already know exactly where she's going.
It's also possible that the offer was received by Wanda, who would have rejected it out of hand provided:

1. She's able to do so,
2. She's convinced letting Jillian get away has a high chance of severely hurting or destroying Haffaton, and,
3. She's unlikely to get caught.

Another possibility is that Haffaton simply has no meaningful cash on hand at all. We don't know the precise details of the exploit they use to keep their side running, but that could be part of it.

Of course, a third possibility is that they're tracking Jillian to find where she's from, and therefore want her to escape... or that they actually did hire the Archons to track her silently, for the same reason.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Mogster2 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:24 am

fjolnir wrote:Remember, corpses only fade if they are not moved.

Fixed ;)

Yeah, I remember a Klog waaaaaayyy back in Book 1 where Parson tells Sizemore to bury the Lookamancer even tho' she'd disappear next turn. Or something. It's been a long time.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby hajo » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:31 am

Mogster2 wrote:I remember a Klog waaaaaayyy back in Book 1 where Parson tells Sizemore to bury the Lookamancer even tho' she'd disappear next turn.

The wiki is a nice place to find things+persons, such as "Misty":
* http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_77
* http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_77a
-HaJo

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby SteveMB » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:39 am

Mogster2 wrote:
fjolnir wrote:Remember, corpses only fade if they are not moved.

Fixed ;)

Yeah, I remember a Klog waaaaaayyy back in Book 1 where Parson tells Sizemore to bury the Lookamancer even tho' she'd disappear next turn. Or something. It's been a long time.


I wonder if Wanda ever found out about that, and noted the obvious parallel to her "graveyard" here.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Sieggy » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:17 am

Magothys wrote:
The weather was wild up here. It rained sideways, even upward at times.


I'm guessing this is a reference to Ollie Williams?
Been there. I worked high (red) iron in my youth, and been on highrises when a nasty storm cell came through without warning. When it rains, you drop to cover beneath the top deck, and I've seen rain come in one side of the structure and out the other with guys laying on the deck holding onto things or hiding behind shear walls so they don't get blown off, and seen the rain flying upwards due to the turbulence. People have absolutely NO idea how different wind and weather conditions differ from ground level and even 100 feet up. This is also what kills a lot of amateur mountain climbers who are totally unprepared for high altitude weather conditions . . .
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby effataigus » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:49 pm

One of the advantages of having a terrible memory is that you can have an old and tired thought and still get an "Eureka" moment out of it.

I was curious how Erfworlders seem to be so bad at manipulating the mechanics of their world to achieve their objectives DESPITE showing impressive tidbits of creativity in times of need. SteveMB's comment about Wanda inventing the graveyard made me realize: Erfworlders have almost no persistent culture. There's so little exchange of personnel, expertise, or technology between sides that new ideas probably usually die with the side that created them. At best, they live on in the minds of the sides that they were used against or in the minds of the casters sent to the magic kingdom as the kingdom was falling (if any).

One extension of this is that a long-lived side that has units in engagements all around Erfworld and that has constant contact with those units would have a huge technology/idea/exploit advantage over traditional sides. I'm looking at you, Charlescomm.

Anyway, an old idea, I assume, but it goes a fair ways for me toward explaining Charlescomm less as an anomaly and more as a logical conclusion of their MO.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Morni » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:10 pm

effataigus wrote:One of the advantages of having a terrible memory is that you can have an old and tired thought and still get an "Eureka" moment out of it.

I was curious how Erfworlders seem to be so bad at manipulating the mechanics of their world to achieve their objectives DESPITE showing impressive tidbits of creativity in times of need. SteveMB's comment about Wanda inventing the graveyard made me realize: Erfworlders have almost no persistent culture. There's so little exchange of personnel, expertise, or technology between sides that new ideas probably usually die with the side that created them. At best, they live on in the minds of the sides that they were used against or in the minds of the casters sent to the magic kingdom as the kingdom was falling (if any).

One extension of this is that a long-lived side that has units in engagements all around Erfworld and that has constant contact with those units would have a huge technology/idea/exploit advantage over traditional sides. I'm looking at you, Charlescomm.

Anyway, an old idea, I assume, but it goes a fair ways for me toward explaining Charlescomm less as an anomaly and more as a logical conclusion of their MO.


This could easily explain how Charlie (though/stole) the idea of the "end turn" magic.

I never though of it that way.. good thinking effataigus!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby SteveMB » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:40 pm

effataigus wrote:One of the advantages of having a terrible memory is that you can have an old and tired thought and still get an "Eureka" moment out of it.

I was curious how Erfworlders seem to be so bad at manipulating the mechanics of their world to achieve their objectives DESPITE showing impressive tidbits of creativity in times of need. SteveMB's comment about Wanda inventing the graveyard made me realize: Erfworlders have almost no persistent culture. There's so little exchange of personnel, expertise, or technology between sides that new ideas probably usually die with the side that created them. At best, they live on in the minds of the sides that they were used against or in the minds of the casters sent to the magic kingdom as the kingdom was falling (if any).


The whole setup of units coming into existence with basic skills already in place and cities coming into existence with libraries containing mostly records of past battles doesn't exactly encourage innovation. Most if not all Erfworlders probably take it for granted that there's a certain way Things Are Done, and they either already know it or can look up how it was done last time this situation came up.

EDIT: Another thought: Maybe the library is like the other city buildings -- it gives a game-mechanic benefit just by existing and being inspected by the city manager, without anybody ever having to actually look up information in the books. Thinking back, perhaps the oddity is that the library actually contains books with information (however unhelpful) in them, rather than just being empty like the slaughterhouse.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby ftl » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:26 pm

I agree entirely with the library thing. Look, the library is there, but erfworld units don't actually *use* it. It's there for the bonus it gives, whatever that may be; nobody actually reads the books in it. Wasn't Wanda sort of surprised when Parson did?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Lamech » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:30 pm

SteveMB wrote:
effataigus wrote:One of the advantages of having a terrible memory is that you can have an old and tired thought and still get an "Eureka" moment out of it.

I was curious how Erfworlders seem to be so bad at manipulating the mechanics of their world to achieve their objectives DESPITE showing impressive tidbits of creativity in times of need. SteveMB's comment about Wanda inventing the graveyard made me realize: Erfworlders have almost no persistent culture. There's so little exchange of personnel, expertise, or technology between sides that new ideas probably usually die with the side that created them. At best, they live on in the minds of the sides that they were used against or in the minds of the casters sent to the magic kingdom as the kingdom was falling (if any).


The whole setup of units coming into existence with basic skills already in place and cities coming into existence with libraries containing mostly records of past battles doesn't exactly encourage innovation. Most if not all Erfworlders probably take it for granted that there's a certain way Things Are Done, and they either already know it or can look up how it was done last time this situation came up.
They also don't seem to have the same work ethic. A few hundred turns of training for something is amazing. In stupid world that's college. Building things takes hundreds of turns in stupid world, I don't see any kind of dedication like that in Erfworld. Innovation is hard. It takes a lot of effort, and a large population base to get the innovation here on stupid world. Erfworld seems to be lacking those two qualities. And they lack the scientific method too. Most pikers or other low grade units can't really innovate, which means each side maybe has... 50 people to think on innovation? Almost all of it tied up in battle or their field of magick?

That really is going to hurt innovation. And what innovation you do get will be tactics, or a narrow field of magic and probably lost anyway.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby bladestorm » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:46 pm

ftl wrote:I agree entirely with the library thing. Look, the library is there, but erfworld units don't actually *use* it. It's there for the bonus it gives, whatever that may be; nobody actually reads the books in it. Wasn't Wanda sort of surprised when Parson did?

It could be a gear in a process that the city uses. The farm's purpose is to produce the piglet and grow it into a pig. After the few turns of it growing has passed, it depops. If you have a slaughterhouse in your city, it can convert that depop into pork products for the city. No slaughterhouse and the depop only counts towards a sale value of the product, which is much lower in value and barely worthwhile unless you only have a handful of units. Thus, the slaughterhouse is pretty much necessary if you want to have a lot of units in that city. This is a completely fabricated example, but it satisfies my need for mechanics. Buildings like the Amphitheater and Library may make it posible for a unit to be popped with a certain set of skills. The Amphitheater could be the Leadership building, so in order to pop a unit with leadership, you need to have an Amphitheater, or some other building that provides a means of obtaining the Leadership trait. The Library could make several skills possible, such as Lores, Tactics, History, Knowledge, or even may be required to pop a caster.

The way it worked in one game I was helping to develop was that the Overlord could assign a city's unit product based upon what was available for that city. The units available were determined by what buildings were in the city, what other units were already there, what special units were already there, the terrain of the hex the city was in (and that surrounded it), and off of the Overlord's skills/traits. Add an Archery Field, and you could start popping archers (or units with the Archery trait). Add in a fencing school or a fencing instructor, and you can start producing stabbers. A library enables you to start popping scholars, teachers, academics, and casters. Casters also had other requirements, such as a tower, and something associated with their school. If the city was near water, adding Docks increased trade traffic into the city, allowing for a wider range of gear and increasing cash per turn. There were even oddball structures, like an art museum and a fountain that could be built. The museum was necessary for a Nobility trait possibility on a popped unit, and the fountain affected overall morale of the populace, making then 0.05% less likely to revolt against you. It was easy to make a city that only popped various infantry units by building a bunch of Barracks and having a few training areas, but it was next to impossible to set up a city that only produced casters. By the time you had all of the criteria to qualify for a caster, you also qualified for a bunch of non-combat units that would pop instead.

Basically, the bigger the city, the more buildings that could be placed in it, and the more opportunity you had to make the right combinations to get a wider variety of units. tat also made it next to impossible to get a caster or warlord in a small city.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Jinren » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:28 pm

Lamech wrote:
SteveMB wrote:
effataigus wrote:One of the advantages of having a terrible memory is that you can have an old and tired thought and still get an "Eureka" moment out of it.

I was curious how Erfworlders seem to be so bad at manipulating the mechanics of their world to achieve their objectives DESPITE showing impressive tidbits of creativity in times of need. SteveMB's comment about Wanda inventing the graveyard made me realize: Erfworlders have almost no persistent culture. There's so little exchange of personnel, expertise, or technology between sides that new ideas probably usually die with the side that created them. At best, they live on in the minds of the sides that they were used against or in the minds of the casters sent to the magic kingdom as the kingdom was falling (if any).


The whole setup of units coming into existence with basic skills already in place and cities coming into existence with libraries containing mostly records of past battles doesn't exactly encourage innovation. Most if not all Erfworlders probably take it for granted that there's a certain way Things Are Done, and they either already know it or can look up how it was done last time this situation came up.
They also don't seem to have the same work ethic. A few hundred turns of training for something is amazing. In stupid world that's college. Building things takes hundreds of turns in stupid world, I don't see any kind of dedication like that in Erfworld. Innovation is hard. It takes a lot of effort, and a large population base to get the innovation here on stupid world. Erfworld seems to be lacking those two qualities. And they lack the scientific method too. Most pikers or other low grade units can't really innovate, which means each side maybe has... 50 people to think on innovation? Almost all of it tied up in battle or their field of magick?

That really is going to hurt innovation. And what innovation you do get will be tactics, or a narrow field of magic and probably lost anyway.


Also observe that the sides with surplus time and mental energy will almost by definition have other things to think about - and that they want to think about, Parson is an oddity in this respect as well - than strategy. Jetstone is apparently a very innovative world leader in the field of High Society-ing, for instance. And there have been many pages about Faq and its contribution to almost every non-military discipline there is.

In a world where you can't choose to go to college but instead are in your divinely-ordained Place, the biggest problem for advancement is simply that statistically most of the innovators probably will be popped as stabbers, not as people with power or time.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Radagast » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:37 pm

It seems reasonably likely that Haffaton is so big, Charlie actually borders them or is even surrounded. No doubt if this is the case he has made an arrangement with them for safe-passage of his units. Haffaton is weak on flyers and Charlie can only be attacked via the air if I recall correctly - not a great negotiating position for Haffaton.

We do know that he's close enough to GK that the RCC2 removes all his business in two entire directions, and also we know that GK (the city itself) was roughly three turns from the city of Faq via Dwagon (so top-end estimate would be 168 hexes but probably far less). We are also told that Charlie is close enough to GK that his Archons need to cut across their territory (and are intercepted).

We also know Transylvito does exist so Haffaton has not done their expansion in that direction.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 046

Postby Oberon » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:11 pm

Magothys wrote:
The weather was wild up here. It rained sideways, even upward at times.

I'm guessing this is a reference to Ollie Williams?
I thought it was a Forrest Gump reference.
Lamech wrote:Building things takes hundreds of turns in stupid world, I don't see any kind of dedication like that in Erfworld.
Tunnels are the only real example we've seen of this, with mining going on over a great many turns.
Lamech wrote:Innovation is hard. [...] Most pikers or other low grade units can't really innovate, which means each side maybe has... 50 people to think on innovation? Almost all of it tied up in battle or their field of magick?
Issac and Ace are the only real innovators we've seen, and Ace strictly within the bounds of his caster class but assisted by Cubbins. Tram is an odd case. He has the informed ability to innovate non-traditional solutions to problems. Other than that, he is either shown standing stupidly about wondering what is going on, or being a quick thinker who catches on to the very serious implications of a changing situation before others do. Stanley is the only other innovator we've seen, his battle table trimancer link being called the shrewdest move Wanda had ever seen from him.
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