Book 2 - Text Updates 057

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby peteratjet » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:37 am

Hmm ...

The King Who Shouted Love at the Heart of Erfworld

... this is going to be bloody
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Oberon » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:41 am

Jorgath wrote:Instead you almost made me cry. That moment between Tramennis and Slately was powerful. You are amazingly good at evoking emotion with your writing, and never let anyone tell you otherwise.
While it was nice to see Tram's true feelings for his father, and see Slately recognize that Tram's flippancy was a part of Tram's way of disguising his feelings, I was disgusted to see Slately continue to toe the royalist party line, refer to anyone not royal as being "cretins and knaves" purely by virtue of not having had the fortune to be popped in a royal side. It's a disgusting bit of elitism and prejudice, and seeing Tram swear to continue this narrow minded world view makes me want to see him die as soon as can be arranged. But I suppose that just a different kind of emotion being evoked...
Lamech wrote:
Whispri wrote:Love is being used as a synonym for hate here, they could have had peace if they'd wanted it.
Hey, don't ruin the moment. Can we have 5 seconds of seeing someone as the good guy?
No. Not when at the same time they are forming a mutual pact to continue to be prejudiced ass-hats. Whispri is quite correct. If Slately and his fellow clansmen didn't have the attitude that all non-royals need to sit in the back of the buss, the entire battle at Jetstone could have been prevented. They wanted this war. They insisted that this fight take place. Thousands of deaths, just because they feel themselves to be superior by reason of the luck of birth.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:47 am

Ohberon wrote:...I was disgusted to see Slately continue to toe the royalist party line, refer to anyone not royal as being "cretins and knaves" purely by virtue of not having had the fortune to be popped in a royal side. It's a disgusting bit of elitism and prejudice...

Well an important thing to remember is that Erfworld doesn't operate by the same rules and logic our world does. It is a world where Form literally does equal Function, and creatures pop with bodies and personality fully formed. "Not having the fortune to pop on a royal side" might actually make a difference. On top of that, the Natural Thinkamancies of the world suggest that only Rulers and Commanders (to a lesser extent) have free will. So the kind of side your on very conceivably does have a profound affect on how you behave.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby drachefly » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:18 pm

And yet, if that turns out to be something that leads to entire sides being ignoble and irredeemable, then I'm going to be disappointed with the story.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:14 pm

Oberon wrote:No. Not when at the same time they are forming a mutual pact to continue to be prejudiced ass-hats. Whispri is quite correct. If Slately and his fellow clansmen didn't have the attitude that all non-royals need to sit in the back of the buss, the entire battle at Jetstone could have been prevented. They wanted this war. They insisted that this fight take place. Thousands of deaths, just because they feel themselves to be superior by reason of the luck of birth.



Cause yeah, we actually don't know enough to make the statement they wanted this war. It was inferred from Vinny who is a non royalist that fighting GK wasn't out of line, the odd part was Ansom himself coming. Now this doesn't tell us GK was all evil and had being attacked coming, it could have just been okay by Erf standards. But we know they were an aggressor so are given little sympathy in general. So the first attack campaign against them is on perspective. But GK coming out and offering submission or decryption isn't exactly offering peace. I'd argue that this current battle is justified self defence. All arguments that the first battle against GK is what brought this on or that join or die conquest was inevitable are moot. There are good arguments either way.

drachefly wrote:And yet, if that turns out to be something that leads to entire sides being ignoble and irredeemable, then I'm going to be disappointed with the story.


Well it could very well be true and not be a certainty. I mean one of the plots of the story is the struggle for free will and I suppose depending on how philosophical or faux philosophical things get, just what that free will entails.

In the end not all unit's match their side. Look at the members of the plaid tribe. Or Trem and his brothers. So either side doesn't determine you or some other mechanic is involved.

I'd wager that the way one pops is representative of a whole person. During their turns of being popped they are "being raised" not just born and well those raised by bigots you tend to be bigots. All the princes that had the extra time put in to be heirs were heiry by jetstone standard's. Trem was never groomed, perhaps that's a mark of upbringing. But hey this is totally speculation. I do see Trem bucking the royalist side.

Edited: To clarify and remove sarcasm
Last edited by Salem on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby CelebrenIthil » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:19 pm

I think this update is the final nail in the coffin of my resistance to drawing some more fanart.
Just gotta find the time... But dang.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:21 pm

Let's all take a look at the picture and all together now

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Aquillion » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:18 pm

Whispri wrote:Love is being used as a synonym for hate here, they could have had peace if they'd wanted it.
Could they? They talked about negotiating, but there's no real indication that Stanley would accept anything but unconditional surrender, and it's entirely valid to fear that Wanda might have decided to kill and decrypt them afterwards to save on upkeep.

I mean, Ansom wanted to negotiate, and look what happened to him. They tried to negotiate, and look what happened with that.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:56 pm

Aquillion wrote:They tried to negotiate, and look what happened with that.

Jillian let loose with a Kingworld spell? Or are you talking about the time Jillian damaged GK equipment? Maybe the time Jillian attacked Jitterai under the false pretense of a parley? Or is this the thing with Beau.

Or were you referring to Jetstone? That wasn't an attempt at negotiation. Or at least it wasn't a very good one. "So we have a history of treachery. In fact, we've used a parley to lower defenses 4 times in a row before attacking, but this time we're honest. Oh and drop your defenses." I'm sorry, they don't really get to complain about treachery when they engage freely in it.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby CordialLupine » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:08 pm

I thought this was a IP(TSF) Update at first. :oops:

I don't think that this is neccessarily another scene where we see "Oh, Jetstone are awful, OMGOMG tey suk" scene. I think it gives us a great view of other PoVs. The Jetstones (among others) aren't being elitist out of evilness, they're elitist because that's how they were raised, and that is the society they grew up in. They honestly believe that, and just because we disagree because we're from a time (and a universe) where equality is important doesn't mean they say, "It's mean to be elitist, so LETS DO IT GAIS OMG".

Also, Slately isn't saying that all non-Royal people are inferior, just Commanders (i.e. non-Royal Rulers). It certainly doesn't help that Wanda and Parson are on a non-Royal side. And, as far as I know, wasn't the original war that lead to the Gobwin Knob battle (and then this one) caused mostly by others not liking how Saline IV made effectively a random unit (just some stupid Piker) an Heir?

0beron wrote:Well an important thing to remember is that Erfworld doesn't operate by the same rules and logic our world does. It is a world where Form literally does equal Function, and creatures pop with bodies and personality fully formed. "Not having the fortune to pop on a royal side" might actually make a difference. On top of that, the Natural Thinkamancies of the world suggest that only Rulers and Commanders (to a lesser extent) have free will. So the kind of side your on very conceivably does have a profound affect on how you behave.


This, so much. We have to realize that in this universe you are literally, physically better when Royal than when not. They level faster and have better stats. Imagine if, in real life, Caucasians could fly or something, and other's couldn't. Even if it doesn't mean that whites are better, it would certainly seem that way, to plenty of white people at least.

(No racism intended w/ that last comment, it's a point of comparison, especially since someone already did a civil-rights comparison)

Also obligatory Lion King reference OMG.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby multilis » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:41 pm

"Imagine if, in real life, Caucasians could fly or something, and other's couldn't."

One can over a number of generations breed a type of dog to be on average better at a certain type of task. Difference for example between what a collie on average can do compared to a Doberman. (Collie makes a poor hunting dog, but good herding dog compared to doberman)

Likely there is some differences between types of people that have lived in more complex civilizations for hundreds or thousands of years compared to those who lived in much simpler/smaller societies, or where survival meant strength/endurance in doing slave labor rather than business type skills. (Racism can over time be reinforced by genetic selection)

In early twentieth century the intellectual elite often strongly promoted ideas of race advantages, eugenics, etc. Some religious made a claim about black skin color being "cursed" as a misinterpretation of old religious text. Some atheists claimed black skinned ape->black man->white man and promoted "social Darwinism".

Part of reason we find the elitism so abhorrent is tied to a backlash against what Nazi party did (and also a backlash for hundreds/thousands of years against the "noble/royal class", by the middle class and others).

If we lived in a culture with massive strikes, hyperinflation, and unrest then the values of our current society could change. Eg 1920s germany had a culture of tolerance as a backlash against bloody protestant/catholic fighting that came before. Eventually that society voted 90%+ to give Hitler dictator type powers, in an referendum considered mostly free/honest by europe observers. (Only had advertising by nazi party near polling booths)

Part of nazi was "elitism" based on superior race, though there was also some with goals away from a "noble class" elitism, eg google Ernest Rohm.

The french, russian, and chinese revolutions also happened after crisis including debt, loss of confidence, etc, also ugly times though the mood was supposedly away from elitism/noble/royal class.

..

We do still have a measure of elitism in western cultures, eg europe still has some noble/royal class, and there is this argument that millionaires tend to dominate rulership in america today... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/opini ... wanted=all "blue colar workers make up over 50% of workers but only have have 2% of seats in congress"
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:27 pm

I do so predict that love shall be Slately's battlefield, he shall not fight for Jetstone, or fight against decryption but he will fight in the name of one Holly Shortcake when that doll is destroyed. Probably die but be awesomer for it.

On another note, I don't think he's going for bigotry with his whole spiel. I mean he probably IS right that people have the royal status and all the buffs for in an in game mechanic reason. If you were making characters royal would seem natural fit for ruler and everything else the harder option. What I think he was doing more than anything else was giving a pep talk and trying to redeem his side, himself and his son. He's actually practically parroting his detractors. "They put us here in the world first, to rule. And they ennobled us, made us greater. That is no lie. You must believe it, and be true to Royal ideals." The way he says things it's like he's saying we can't be petty anymore we have to be our ideals to triumph, we can't just spout them we have to be better people. it's mostly the way he says that is no lie. It all smacks of I dunno hiddenmeaningness.

Note: I like Slately and I don't want to see him die a prejudiced jerk. So take me as biased. I am!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Sir_Real » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:36 pm

Lamech wrote:
Aquillion wrote:They tried to negotiate, and look what happened with that.

Jillian let loose with a Kingworld spell? Or are you talking about the time Jillian damaged GK equipment? Maybe the time Jillian attacked Jitterai under the false pretense of a parley? Or is this the thing with Beau.


Three of those examples involve Jillian, who doesn't exactly cleave close to concepts of Erf honor and proper Royal conduct and so forth (how good or bad that is depends on your POV). I mean Kingworld - done without any consultation with any other ruler in the alliance and after Jillian had failed to convince Wanda to rejoin Faq, betray the alliance and GK and destroy Jetstone. That whole parley was as crooked as hell.

Beau - not exactly a normal situation, since she had seemed to have succumbed to emotion in making her decision (sacrificing good units to kill her decrypted daughter, for no benefit to the war effort, shortly before committing suicide in a way that eliminates her side completely). We know Slately admired her sacrifice, we don't know what, if anything, he would have thought about the parlay business. Nor Don. We don't even know what Beau thought of breaking it, just she chose to do it.

Or were you referring to Jetstone? That wasn't an attempt at negotiation. Or at least it wasn't a very good one. "So we have a history of treachery. In fact, we've used a parley to lower defenses 4 times in a row before attacking, but this time we're honest. Oh and drop your defenses." I'm sorry, they don't really get to complain about treachery when they engage freely in it.


Jetstone personally has used parlay four times to lower defense? They knew of and endorsed those actions all four of those times? Or does the action of a single Royal character mean all Royals are equally as untrustworthy and liable to do the same? I mean we have seen significant variation between non-royal characters (from Stanley to Vinny/Caesar), and in just the sons of Jetstone we've seen significant difference. Jillian and her father... really by that logic there should be no diplomacy at all ever in Erfworld.

Whispri wrote:Love is being used as a synonym for hate here, they could have had peace if they'd wanted it.


When? TBfGK was royally motivated in terms of the extent of the response (as Vinny points out in regards to Ansom), but Stanley had been being a bit of an aggressive jerk by all accounts, and he had had a powerful side for a time that weaker sides probably wouldn't have defeated easily.

After GK's victory they started up the decryption steam roller, and the choice for all non-GK sides is surrender and align with GK and help in their goals or die and be decrypted and help GK with their goals. I guess in a sense "we wont kill everyone of you if you choose to live on your knees and dance to our tune, including putting everyone to the sword who doesn't want to live like that" could be considered as having "peace". But I can easily understand it not being a peace many would want to live in. I probably wouldn't want to live in it.

Oberon wrote:
Jorgath wrote:Instead you almost made me cry. That moment between Tramennis and Slately was powerful. You are amazingly good at evoking emotion with your writing, and never let anyone tell you otherwise.
While it was nice to see Tram's true feelings for his father, and see Slately recognize that Tram's flippancy was a part of Tram's way of disguising his feelings, I was disgusted to see Slately continue to toe the royalist party line, refer to anyone not royal as being "cretins and knaves" purely by virtue of not having had the fortune to be popped in a royal side. It's a disgusting bit of elitism and prejudice, and seeing Tram swear to continue this narrow minded world view makes me want to see him die as soon as can be arranged. But I suppose that just a different kind of emotion being evoked...


Which part did he promise to do? "You must believe it, and be true to Royal ideals. Whatever happens, you mustn’t lower yourself! You mustn’t debase yourself, or Jetstone".

It's hard to believe something you don't believe, so if Tram doesn't think the Royals are inherently better (stats aside) in terms of ruling his promising isn't going to change that. Promising to stay true to ideals? Are Royal ideals bad? If they enforce "royals are the best" maybe, but I doubt that is all there is to them (and I doubt they are a codified set of rules, so there is probably a lot of wiggle room). Promising not to debase yourself or your nation doesn't seem so bad (and what Slately considers debasement Trem might not, so...) I mean Slately is advocating being better and greater and all that, he sees they aren't perfect, and is saying power alone (which Wanda and Slately have) should not be enough, and it wont be if these royals better themselves. Which isn't so crazy.

Of course we haven't seen many non-royal successful sides - there is Charlie who is unique in his single city (and we don't know what he is) and Stanley, who is hopeless without wise counsel. We haven't seen any royal side led by a royal Stanley (though Jillians makes a comparison once). In a world of natural thinkamancy - do Royals pop with a sense of superiority? Are their minds influenced as any other unit? In a world where Royals have presumably been dominant for much of it's existence...

To be fair to Slately double his world isn't ours. He could have quite the mountain to overcome in changing world views completely from "Titans made Royals greater so we should rule because we are greater" to "I guess everyone is equal in a sense when it comes to... stuff?" (never mind doing it while coming to terms with your imminent death) - when Erf isn't equal in terms of free will, in terms of stats, in terms of luck by the very reality of the place. This is something that might go all the way to his bones by design, not choice.

Plus - the cretin and knave bit. Wanda was popped to a Royal side, though Slately doesn't know that. Slately pops non-royal units, every royal side does. I'm guessing he doesn't think of his own knights and casters and stabbers as "cretins and knaves". I think in context he is referring to particular individuals who also happen to be non-royals (cretin does seem applicable to Stanley at his worst), which is a major factor, but not the only one.

Lamech wrote:
Whispri wrote:Love is being used as a synonym for hate here, they could have had peace if they'd wanted it.
Hey, don't ruin the moment. Can we have 5 seconds of seeing someone as the good guy?
No. Not when at the same time they are forming a mutual pact to continue to be prejudiced ass-hats. Whispri is quite correct. If Slately and his fellow clansmen didn't have the attitude that all non-royals need to sit in the back of the buss, the entire battle at Jetstone could have been prevented. They wanted this war. They insisted that this fight take place. Thousands of deaths, just because they feel themselves to be superior by reason of the luck of birth.


How could the battle at Jetstone have been avoided? Didn't GK march through Unaroyal to Jetstone of their own free will? Do you mean the fact Slately's alliance took an anti-toolist stance after what happened at GK? Neither side entered into peace talks from what I remember, or even tried to. And doesn't GK, through Wanda, want Erf, either through decryption or servitude? Jetstones option for avoiding it was pretty much surrendering to GK - so Slately deciding to fight doesn't seem that unreasonable. It is self defense now, though he muddies the water by making it a battle of ideologies as well (though he isn't alone in doing this - Toolism isn't exactly all cuddles and cake).
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby imgran » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:32 am

Just bear one thing in mind people./

These are not human beings.

That means that arguments involving, say, racism, that are made from a strictly human perspective aren't particularly applicable to Erfworld.

Erfworld is a world where you can see stats and KNOW Royal units have significant, tangible concrete advantages as units simply for being popped Royal. Where the presence of absence of attributes that might be a mere accident of birth and economic or educational privileges in this world are hard coded into the fabric of a unit from the very second it came into existence.

As it is in this world there are real medical, physical and psychological differences between the races. These differences are more than a matter of conjecture. However it's not concretely known exactly what and exactly where these differences are and exactly what the implications of those differences might be. In Erfworld, though, there's clearly quantifiable racial distinctions, not just to the point that the differences serve to identify one people from another, but to the point that you can quantify exactly what those are and pick or prefer one or the other based on exactly what style of combat you prefer.

of course even in Erfworld, the differences are by and large vastly outweighed by the similarities, but the fact of the matter still remains that the difference between the races is more than a matter of conjecture or quack science, which means that "racism" or elitism isn't the black evil it is in the real world. Not quite.

Also remember that one of the Royalist ideals that Slately seems to be pushing now that he's finally woken up is the concept of noblesse oblige. He starts with the proven precent that Royal units are better than other units, but holds that the fact of being better requires duties to go along with the privileges. Duty to side, duty to people, etc. Elitism actually works, when the presumed elites actually do these things. It's when they don't that real problems start happening.

Noblesse oblige was the better side of the old feudal system. people like to presume that lords and kings and such had no check on their power before the days of the great revolutions of the 18th century. This really isn't true. There were definite duties laid on a lord or king by both tradition and sctipture, and other kings and nobles, and the occasional popular revolt against a particularly odious ruler, enforced those duties. People like to blame the Church for the endurance of the feudal system now that enough time has passed that we no longer fully comprehend it, but no amount of religion in the world is going to keep you from rising up and burning down your lord's manor house if your children are consistently starving because his taxes are absurd. The feudal system worked for a thousand years plus exactly because a sufficient number of feudal lords took it sufficiently seriously that the needs of most of the peasants and serfs were met for the most part, most of the time, and the threat of popular revolt usually kept most of the rest in line.

Just saying, elitism on the face of it isn't bad, and plutocracy isn't good just because it's plutocratic. And with sufficient virtue and morality either will work fairly well as long as a true system exists for grievances by the underclass to be aired and addressed by the dutiful elites. Again, it's when that stops happening that the fur starts to fly..
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:49 am

imgran wrote:Also remember that one of the Royalist ideals that Slately seems to be pushing now that he's finally woken up is the concept of noblesse oblige. He starts with the proven precent that Royal units are better than other units, but holds that the fact of being better requires duties to go along with the privileges. Duty to side, duty to people, etc. Elitism actually works, when the presumed elites actually do these things. It's when they don't that real problems start happening.

Wikipedia has some interesting and relevant articles on the unwritten laws of Rome:
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby hajo » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:28 am

imgran wrote:Erfworld is a world where you can see stats and KNOW Royal units have significant, tangible concrete advantages as units simply for being popped Royal.

We haven't seen the exact stats yet.
So, does that royal bonus apply to common units too, like pikers, stabbers, archers etc. ?
How much Is the difference in cost and upkeep ?
When leveling via training, how much time would you need to get the same effect as having a royal bonus ?

We just don't have enough data yet, to tell how much royalty is really worth...
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby wrecan » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:22 am

Oberon wrote:Thousands of deaths, just because they feel themselves to be superior by reason of the luck of birth.

The circumstances of birth in Erf is not Luck. It is Fate.

Noble are made to rule because Nobles are made. This is not StupidWorld, where people declared themselves noble because their father killed more men than the other guy's father. People are Nobles because the Titans decreed they be Noble. Nobles are better in many respects. They are born to lead. Does that mean non-Nobles should be treated as expendable? No. But that's an alien concept to Erf such that even non-Nobles find it odd to think of units that way. Even Florists like Olive Branch treat people as pieces to be manipulated.

This is a stratified hierarchical elitist world. And it's Parson's job to destroy it and, with any Luck, make it better.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby drachefly » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:46 am

Sir_Real wrote:Wanda was popped to a Royal side, though Slately doesn't know that.


No, she wasn't.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby vintermann » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:47 am

hajo wrote:
imgran wrote:Erfworld is a world where you can see stats and KNOW Royal units have significant, tangible concrete advantages as units simply for being popped Royal.

We haven't seen the exact stats yet.
So, does that royal bonus apply to common units too, like pikers, stabbers, archers etc. ?


No, because royal is a unit attribute. Stanley was popped as a piker to a royal side, but he's no royal.

Keep in mind that in Erfworld, signamancy also matters. Gobwin knob has spidews and dwagons and gobwins because they are the bad guys in an important sense (though maybe not the only sense). Jetstone has "good" units (Orlys, unipegataur, cloth golems), but right now Slately has very evil signamancy (a Mars Attacks! alien), suggesting that maybe something is changing, at least for him personally.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby hajo » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:31 am

vintermann wrote:
hajo wrote:So, does that royal bonus apply to common units too, like pikers, stabbers, archers etc. ?

No, because royal is a unit attribute. Stanley was popped as a piker to a royal side, but he's no royal.

Yes, but I meant: is it possible to pop common units with royal bonus, i.e. stronger, faster leveling, etc. ?

Most likely, the existing royals haven't thought of that, and also are likely to be too proud etc. to use that option
to get lowly elite troops :mrgreen:
If that would be worth the effort depends on stats and cost, which we haven't seen yet...
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