Zeroberon wrote:Well an important thing to remember is that Erfworld doesn't operate by the same rules and logic our world does.
I understand that. It does not change my opinions of the elitists in this story, just as a story where WWII German eugenics was actually a valid theory would change my opinions of the Nazis.
Salem wrote:Cause yeah, we actually don't know enough to make the statement they wanted this war. [...] But we know they were an aggressor so are given little sympathy in general.
Vinny pretty much laid this to rest. GK had committed the intolerable offense of being a successful side which was led by a non-royal. That, plus the excuse of a few scouts being killed, was all it took for Jetstone to form the RCC. And then after they got their asses handed to them they still maintained their royalist elitism and formed the RCCII.
Or were you referring to Jetstone? That wasn't an attempt at negotiation.
Ansom wrote:There is good news, brothers. If you would listen. This battle need not be fought.
I may be misreading you. If I am, my apologies. If I am not, then let's not forget history. To spell it out clearly for anyone who might have missed it, GK arrived on the scene with what appeared to be a strong if not overwhelming force. Yes, that can be considered to be antagonistic. But negotiations from a position of strength are typically far more successful than negotiations from a position of weakness. In response, Jetstone girded for the final battle by assigning almost all casters to Ossomer. GK then offered alliance
! Yes, alliance. Which in this world can be enforced by contractual penalties if the alliance is violated. This would have eliminated any need for this battle
. But what happened then? The Jetstone leaders refused to even consider this alliance without even bothering to consult with their king. They responded only with insults. "Dog bowels" "used fig", etc. Only then, and regretfully (And Ansom's regret at being forced to attack Jetstone was very well portrayed in the story), did GK move to attack the Jetstone capitol.
CordialLupine wrote:The Jetstones (among others) aren't being elitist out of evilness, they're elitist because that's how they were raised, and that is the society they grew up in.
Wow. Just....wow. So, according to your way of thinking, Nazis were just fine
for killing 6 million Jews because that's just how they were raised
, or perhaps it was only the fault of their leaders
. Southern US plantations owners were just fine for owning slaves, beating and raping them, because, you know, that's just how things were
back then. God damn. I occasionally think that humanity has progressed, but then I see something like this and I'm reminded that we still suck a lot.
multilis wrote:Part of reason we find the elitism so abhorrent is tied to a backlash against what Nazi party did
No. Not at all. The Nazi party was horrific, but they are not the sole reason "elitism" (and you say this as if it was true) is abhorrent. Eugenics is a false science. It presupposes that people "like you" are superior to people "not like you", and thus breeding more people "like you" will somehow result in a superior race. It's hogwash. It doesn't require Nazis to be bad science, it just is bad science.
Sir_Real wrote:How could the battle at Jetstone have been avoided?
I refer you to the part where GK offered alliance to Jetstone and received only insults and refusal in response.
imgran wrote:Just bear one thing in mind people./
These are not human beings.
That means that arguments involving, say, racism, that are made from a strictly human perspective aren't particularly applicable to Erfworld.
That does not fly. The readers
are human beings. Our viewpoints cannot ignore human history. We might forgive royalist sides for being horribly racist, but we will still recognize that they are horribly racist. If the horribly racist side is portrayed as being sympathetic, we will remember that even Nazis loved their children. But if the story places the racists on a higher moral plane (they were just popped
superior, how could they possibly not be racists?), and also lets them be the triumphant victors of the story, then the story will be judged accordingly. Jetstone must fall, and royals must tumble, or this story is just a hidden racist/eugenics promo.