Book 2 - Text Updates 057

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby cheeseaholic » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:37 am

imgran wrote:Erfworld is a world where you can see stats and KNOW Royal units have significant, tangible concrete advantages as units simply for being popped Royal. Where the presence of absence of attributes that might be a mere accident of birth and economic or educational privileges in this world are hard coded into the fabric of a unit from the very second it came into existence.


I look at a guy and see that he's built like the hulk. He's obviously physically superior. Therefore he's morally superior.

Of course if he wants to rule over me he can since he can pick me up and break me, but does his strength give him the right to do that? I fail to see how royalty makes Slatley a special case for this argument. He *wants* to be a special case, but his reasoning seems to be he's special because he's royal, and royal is special because it is. If you're going with might makes right I'd give the power to the flying warlords or maybe the side with the headbanging infantry rather than the side that only has royalty going for it. Hell if his argument is might shows the will of the titans, well, Stanley agrees.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Oberon » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:12 am

Zeroberon wrote:Well an important thing to remember is that Erfworld doesn't operate by the same rules and logic our world does.
I understand that. It does not change my opinions of the elitists in this story, just as a story where WWII German eugenics was actually a valid theory would change my opinions of the Nazis.
Salem wrote:Cause yeah, we actually don't know enough to make the statement they wanted this war. [...] But we know they were an aggressor so are given little sympathy in general.
Vinny pretty much laid this to rest. GK had committed the intolerable offense of being a successful side which was led by a non-royal. That, plus the excuse of a few scouts being killed, was all it took for Jetstone to form the RCC. And then after they got their asses handed to them they still maintained their royalist elitism and formed the RCCII.
Lamech wrote:Or were you referring to Jetstone? That wasn't an attempt at negotiation.
Ansom wrote:There is good news, brothers. If you would listen. This battle need not be fought.
I may be misreading you. If I am, my apologies. If I am not, then let's not forget history. To spell it out clearly for anyone who might have missed it, GK arrived on the scene with what appeared to be a strong if not overwhelming force. Yes, that can be considered to be antagonistic. But negotiations from a position of strength are typically far more successful than negotiations from a position of weakness. In response, Jetstone girded for the final battle by assigning almost all casters to Ossomer. GK then offered alliance! Yes, alliance. Which in this world can be enforced by contractual penalties if the alliance is violated. This would have eliminated any need for this battle. But what happened then? The Jetstone leaders refused to even consider this alliance without even bothering to consult with their king. They responded only with insults. "Dog bowels" "used fig", etc. Only then, and regretfully (And Ansom's regret at being forced to attack Jetstone was very well portrayed in the story), did GK move to attack the Jetstone capitol.
CordialLupine wrote:The Jetstones (among others) aren't being elitist out of evilness, they're elitist because that's how they were raised, and that is the society they grew up in.
Wow. Just....wow. So, according to your way of thinking, Nazis were just fine for killing 6 million Jews because that's just how they were raised, or perhaps it was only the fault of their leaders. Southern US plantations owners were just fine for owning slaves, beating and raping them, because, you know, that's just how things were back then. God damn. I occasionally think that humanity has progressed, but then I see something like this and I'm reminded that we still suck a lot.
multilis wrote:Part of reason we find the elitism so abhorrent is tied to a backlash against what Nazi party did
No. Not at all. The Nazi party was horrific, but they are not the sole reason "elitism" (and you say this as if it was true) is abhorrent. Eugenics is a false science. It presupposes that people "like you" are superior to people "not like you", and thus breeding more people "like you" will somehow result in a superior race. It's hogwash. It doesn't require Nazis to be bad science, it just is bad science.
Sir_Real wrote:How could the battle at Jetstone have been avoided?
I refer you to the part where GK offered alliance to Jetstone and received only insults and refusal in response.
imgran wrote:Just bear one thing in mind people./

These are not human beings.

That means that arguments involving, say, racism, that are made from a strictly human perspective aren't particularly applicable to Erfworld.
That does not fly. The readers are human beings. Our viewpoints cannot ignore human history. We might forgive royalist sides for being horribly racist, but we will still recognize that they are horribly racist. If the horribly racist side is portrayed as being sympathetic, we will remember that even Nazis loved their children. But if the story places the racists on a higher moral plane (they were just popped superior, how could they possibly not be racists?), and also lets them be the triumphant victors of the story, then the story will be judged accordingly. Jetstone must fall, and royals must tumble, or this story is just a hidden racist/eugenics promo.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby wrecan » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:21 am

cheeseaholic wrote:Of course if he wants to rule over me he can since he can pick me up and break me, but does his strength give him the right to do that?

In ErfWorld he rules over you because you were popped as a subject in the Side that we was popped specifically to rule. His birthright gives him that right in a way that birthright in the real world does not.

cheeseaholic wrote:I fail to see how royalty makes Slatley a special case for this argument. He *wants* to be a special case, but his reasoning seems to be he's special because he's royal, and royal is special because it is.

It's definitional. Royal is special because it's an actual mechanical trait in the world that is Erf. Unlike being a heavy unit, you cannot be promoted to Royal, at least not as we've seen, and if you could, I imagine that Saline would have promoted Stanley to Royal when he promoted him to heir of GK. So "noble" seems to be one of those very rare traits that could only exist at the moment you are popped, akin to species/class (piker, caster, orly, etc.).

Noble is also unique because one can only pop with the "noble" trait in a city with a Noble as a ruler. (Whereas a caster can pop in a city with no casters.) So being "noble" is inherently tied to being a ruler. And, there is a huge incentive for Nobles to make other nobles heirs. If, as Saline did, you appoint a non-Noble your heir, your Side loses the ability to pop Nobles and any mechanical benefit that entails (barring the use of Turnamancy or Decryption to add a captured/croaked Noble to your Side).

There's plenty of mechanical reasons to think that, unlike real-world nobility, ErfWorld Nobles really are superior to others and really are created for the purpose of leading others.

Oberon wrote:It does not change my opinions of the elitists in this story, just as a story where WWII German eugenics was actually a valid theory would change my opinions of the Nazis.

Nobody is saying your opinons of real-world elitists should be changed. But your opinion of ErfWorld elitism shoudl be challenged by the fact that Erf is decidedly different from Earth. One of the points of the story is to challenge you, the reader, to look at things in new and alien ways. If you simply write off ErfWorld elitism because of real-world elitism, you aren't challenging yourself and you are, in my opinion, missing out on one of the great pleasures of this webcomic.

Oberon wrote:The readers are human beings. Our viewpoints cannot ignore human history.

Sure they can. Because Erf is not human history. And, actually, applying human history to Erf appears all sorts of wrong. It's basically rebelling against the idea that one can tell a compelling story that changes the fundamental assumptions. ErfWorld is supposed to challenge fundamental assumptions. What if gods did exist? What if people were born to lead? What if the world really was set up to engender perpetual war? These are fascinating questions which are trivialized by refusing to examine ErfWorld on its own terms and insisting that it be judged inappropriately by real-world standards.

We can condemn the Titans for creating such an elitist and violent world. (But then again, we know so little about the Titans we have no idea if Erf turned out like they intended.) But to condemn Nobles in ErfWorld for reacting reasonably to the circumstances of their popping is not, in my opinion, reasonable.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby drachefly » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:20 pm

wrecan wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Of course if he wants to rule over me he can since he can pick me up and break me, but does his strength give him the right to do that?

In ErfWorld he rules over you because you were popped as a subject in the Side that we was popped specifically to rule. His birthright gives him that right in a way that birthright in the real world does not.


It certainly gives him that ability. Arguably the only ensuing right is by a leviathan argument and the asymmetry in the powers.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:53 pm

Oberon wrote:
Zeroberon wrote:Well an important thing to remember is that Erfworld doesn't operate by the same rules and logic our world does.
I understand that. It does not change my opinions of the elitists in this story, just as a story where WWII German eugenics was actually a valid theory would change my opinions of the Nazis.


First off wow, are you really a troll? Did we just get an actual conversation practically devolving into Nazi themed name calling. Man, I thought that was a myth like rule 34. Wow.

Oberon wrote:
Salem wrote:Cause yeah, we actually don't know enough to make the statement they wanted this war. [...] But we know they were an aggressor so are given little sympathy in general.
Vinny pretty much laid this to rest. GK had committed the intolerable offense of being a successful side which was led by a non-royal. That, plus the excuse of a few scouts being killed, was all it took for Jetstone to form the RCC. And then after they got their asses handed to them they still maintained their royalist elitism and formed the RCCII.



Actually maybe I'm horrible at getting the point, but I was pretty sure Vinny was saying the war was justified or at least acceptable. But, what he was pointing out was that the response was disproportionate. He says something along the lines of yeah, I get all that but why YOU. Why are YOU leading. He is pointing out the ugly royal bias in the fact that Ansom is leading not that Jetstone is fighting. You don't jus want him dead you REALLY want him dead, it's that personal eh?

Remember Stanley was and is a conqueror. A violent little man that has likeable aspects. But he is a villain he even abandons his own people. But you know what I still like him because I view everyone playing the game as if they were playing an online game. They have orange/blue morality, not black/white. Lesser troops actually ARE expendable to their moral scheme, this is what makes Parson so different to them, Maggie makes a point of it.
Oberon wrote:
Lamech wrote:Or were you referring to Jetstone? That wasn't an attempt at negotiation.
Ansom wrote:There is good news, brothers. If you would listen. This battle need not be fought.
I may be misreading you. If I am, my apologies. If I am not, then let's not forget history. To spell it out clearly for anyone who might have missed it, GK arrived on the scene with what appeared to be a strong if not overwhelming force. Yes, that can be considered to be antagonistic. But negotiations from a position of strength are typically far more successful than negotiations from a position of weakness. In response, Jetstone girded for the final battle by assigning almost all casters to Ossomer. GK then offered alliance! Yes, alliance. Which in this world can be enforced by contractual penalties if the alliance is violated. This would have eliminated any need for this battle. But what happened then? The Jetstone leaders refused to even consider this alliance without even bothering to consult with their king. They responded only with insults. "Dog bowels" "used fig", etc. Only then, and regretfully (And Ansom's regret at being forced to attack Jetstone was very well portrayed in the story), did GK move to attack the Jetstone capitol.


Annnnnnd the offer was still join us or die. Yes they could have chosen join us. But in the end it was still "Give up all your ideals and embrace ours, or we kill you." That was the option. The logic of if peace is offered always take it leads to some really absurd conclusions. "Give up your ancestral lands and move to the boopy land we don't want and we'll not kill you, deal?" "Okay." Or "Give up atheism take our religion or die." "Okay." Ad naseum.
Oberon wrote:
CordialLupine wrote:The Jetstones (among others) aren't being elitist out of evilness, they're elitist because that's how they were raised, and that is the society they grew up in.
Wow. Just....wow. So, according to your way of thinking, Nazis were just fine for killing 6 million Jews because that's just how they were raised, or perhaps it was only the fault of their leaders. Southern US plantations owners were just fine for owning slaves, beating and raping them, because, you know, that's just how things were back then. God damn. I occasionally think that humanity has progressed, but then I see something like this and I'm reminded that we still suck a lot.


I have to agree with you. Cultural relativity is boop. But then again I believe there is cultural progress, which is in direct contradiction. Well I hold other ideas that disagree with it.

But I do agree that upbringing is a defence. It's not a perfect one like truth in cases of defamation. But lets be honest here how we are raised has a huge effect on the people we are. Hence bigots tend to produce bigots. That doesn't make bigotry okay but it helps one understand why someone is a bigot and they have opportunity to change over time. Granted arguments for determinism might disagree but if you don't want to stack with that maybe it's easier to go with Why I was a bigot is because I was raised that way, why I am a bigot well that's another story.



Oberon wrote:
multilis wrote:Part of reason we find the elitism so abhorrent is tied to a backlash against what Nazi party did
No. Not at all. The Nazi party was horrific, but they are not the sole reason "elitism" (and you say this as if it was true) is abhorrent. Eugenics is a false science. It presupposes that people "like you" are superior to people "not like you", and thus breeding more people "like you" will somehow result in a superior race. It's hogwash. It doesn't require Nazis to be bad science, it just is bad science.


You have a flaw in your argument you say it's a false science because it presupposes people like you are superior to those not. The flaw being you presuppose that it's impossible for one people to be superior to another. This is based on the idea that humans as a species are so genetically similar that there is for all intents and purposes no difference. But I would never make the claim that I was the equal of Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. and that's probably because I'm missing their greatest message of equality. But their compassion stat is muuuch higher than mine. If I lived in a world where I could see all the relevant stats (Not to say that's Erf so lets call it World A) I might think different. Say I had a blue/orange morality where intelligence meant superiority and I could see everyone's int stat and one species had a natural stat double every other race. Or say I lived in World A and I had a system of beliefs that led me to believe that superiority is defined by compassion, caring, empathy, morality, and honesty and I could see those stats.

Often times the argument against that rests on the idea that there is no such thing as superiority. Which means that there is nothing better about you than Hitler or the Nazi's so stop dragging them through the mud. In fact child molesters are not inferior to you in any way what so ever. But most people here believe in superiority or else we wouldn't say the negative things we do about eugenics or Nazi's. So in fact in Erf we might be just like the Royals.



Oberon wrote:
Sir_Real wrote:How could the battle at Jetstone have been avoided?
I refer you to the part where GK offered alliance to Jetstone and received only insults and refusal in response.
imgran wrote:Just bear one thing in mind people./

These are not human beings.

That means that arguments involving, say, racism, that are made from a strictly human perspective aren't particularly applicable to Erfworld.
That does not fly. The readers are human beings. Our viewpoints cannot ignore human history. We might forgive royalist sides for being horribly racist, but we will still recognize that they are horribly racist. If the horribly racist side is portrayed as being sympathetic, we will remember that even Nazis loved their children. But if the story places the racists on a higher moral plane (they were just popped superior, how could they possibly not be racists?), and also lets them be the triumphant victors of the story, then the story will be judged accordingly. Jetstone must fall, and royals must tumble, or this story is just a hidden racist/eugenics promo.



Agreed, I would not appreciate a story where racism is glorified. Now one where a racist wins is a different story, but it would depend on how that ending is portrayed good vs bad ending. I like sad stories. However I think Erf is different it deals with orange/blue morality and a system that holds a mirror to ourselves. We DO believe in superiority we just coat it with pretty paint, but in a world where stats and abilities are open and obvious that paint starts to wear thin. Hence one of the hidden gems of Erfworld, I love you Rob! Marry me!

drachefly wrote:
wrecan wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Of course if he wants to rule over me he can since he can pick me up and break me, but does his strength give him the right to do that?

In ErfWorld he rules over you because you were popped as a subject in the Side that we was popped specifically to rule. His birthright gives him that right in a way that birthright in the real world does not.


It certainly gives him that ability. Arguably the only ensuing right is by a leviathan argument and the asymmetry in the powers.

But that's all the murky territory of rights. DO people really have any at all? Or is it just a construct of society.
Last edited by Salem on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:59 pm

Oberon wrote:
CordialLupine wrote:The Jetstones (among others) aren't being elitist out of evilness, they're elitist because that's how they were raised, and that is the society they grew up in.
Wow. Just....wow. So, according to your way of thinking, Nazis were just fine for killing 6 million Jews because that's just how they were raised, or perhaps it was only the fault of their leaders. Southern US plantations owners were just fine for owning slaves, beating and raping them, because, you know, that's just how things were back then. God damn. I occasionally think that humanity has progressed, but then I see something like this and I'm reminded that we still suck a lot.

Right, because every single member of the Nazi Party killed Jews on site, and every single plantation owner in the US South routinely beat and raped their slaves. Or are the Nazi's the only people in a long history of killing Jews and attempting to eradicate the entire group that were evil for doing so? Way to only look at one half of history, and validating that history will only ever be known from the victor's side of the tale (or whoever is in charge of writing/publishing the history books).
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:04 pm

Oberon wrote:
CordialLupine wrote:The Jetstones (among others) aren't being elitist out of evilness, they're elitist because that's how they were raised, and that is the society they grew up in.
[Irrelevant Nazi BS, because he's run out of legitimate arguments]

I think Bladestorm's response to this is even over-thinking it. As I said initially, Erfworld doesn't function by our rules. NOBODY in Jetstone besides Slately has 100% free will. And it's even possible that Slately was POPPED thinking a certain way due to being Royal. So trying to compare anything about the morality of Erfling's actions by human logic is totally flawed.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:15 pm

0beron wrote:I think Bladestorm's response to this is even over-thinking it. As I said initially, Erfworld doesn't function by our rules. NOBODY in Jetstone besides Slately has 100% free will. And it's even possible that Slately was POPPED thinking a certain way due to being Royal. So trying to compare anything about the morality of Erfling's actions by human logic is totally flawed.

The main issue is painting an entire side or coalition or type of unit based upon the actions of a few. Just because someone is popped as a royal, wanted Stanley croaked, and fought against GK as part of the RCC does not make them an elitist. Jillian is a royal, fought as part of the RCC against GK, and still wants Stanley croaked, but she doesn't fit the elitist mold that all of Royalty is getting crammed into. Don is a Royal, and for a while he had a non-royal Heir. Granted Ceasar is a noble, he's not a Royal (or Don is popping a Royal Heir to replace him for no reason). There's little difference between Don and Saline, and Ceasar and Stanley, aside from who their allies are. And the fundamental concept that the RCC is Royal vs nonroyal Overlord is also faulty. Otherwise, Charlie would be just as much of a target as Stanley. How is it that Jetstone can hold themselves so superior to Stanley that they want to wipe him out completely, but make no moves against Charlescomm? At the opening of Book One, GK was not a threat to anyone, no matter how hard they tried. Stanley was on the verge of mismanaging them into oblivion.

There's something else driving Jetstone to have such ire against GK. At the current point in the story line, I can understand mounting a coalition against GK -- they have two arkentools and a massive army of decrypted, are responsible for the eradication of the Milquetoast tribe and the fall of Unaroyal, and are spreading very rapidly (maybe even faster than Haffaton). This is a much different GK than what we saw at the beginning of Book One. Whatever it was that was driving JS and the RCC at the beginning of Book One goes far beyond simple elitism, divine mandate, or how Fate popped a certain unit.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:21 pm

bladestorm wrote:At the opening of Book One, GK was not a threat to anyone, no matter how hard they tried. Stanley was on the verge of mismanaging them into oblivion.

Don't forget that just before the opening of book 1 GK was a threat it was doing well it had just been beaten back into a corner so that Parson would be needed and so that the story wouldn't be a tactical genious kicking butt with superior/equal forces, but an underdog story that goes KA-BOOM.

Also note that it's arguable GK is weak because of a single gem found by marbits.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby drachefly » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:23 pm

I rather suspect that the marbit gem just made them lose the CWL, thus providing an opening for Parson to move into. If they hadn't, Manpower would have continued to lead them, to utter defeat.

Man, I thought that was a myth like rule 34. Wow.


you think that's a myth?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:43 pm

drachefly wrote:I rather suspect that the marbit gem just made them lose the CWL, thus providing an opening for Parson to move into. If they hadn't, Manpower would have continued to lead them, to utter defeat.


This is quite likely too. It does strgenthen Wanda's position and in fact possibly put her in the position that allows her to argue for the spell. Thus how it plays into the narative.

drachefly wrote:
Man, I thought that was a myth like rule 34. Wow.


you think that's a myth?


Not entirely I think it's more an unreachable ideal but man do we try! I know people, people I'm related to who make it a personal point to disprove rule 34. So I feel it's more like:
Person A:"Well what about this, it disproves rule 34."
Internet people: "Not for loooooooooong~"
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby hajo » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:29 pm

bladestorm wrote:the fundamental concept that the RCC is Royal vs nonroyal Overlord is also faulty. Otherwise, Charlie would be just as much of a target as Stanley. How is it that Jetstone can hold themselves so superior to Stanley that they want to wipe him out completely, but make no moves against Charlescomm? At the opening of Book One, GK was not a threat to anyone, no matter how hard they tried. Stanley was on the verge of mismanaging them into oblivion.

There's something else driving Jetstone to have such ire against GK.
..
Whatever it was that was driving JS and the RCC at the beginning of Book One goes far beyond simple elitism, divine mandate, or how Fate popped a certain unit.

My pet theory is that Charlie is behind most of these things, and he is going for world-domination.
For that, he needs to collect the arkentools.
His merc- and telco-business is just a convincent front. It allows him to have troops+spies everywhere (in MK too), and to scan a good part of the worldwide communication.
All this without raising too much suspicion, getting bonuspoints for being profitable 8-)
And Archons, to pass the time :mrgreen:

So he got thwarted by inept Stanley, on several occations:
* The hammer, when found by Stanley. This is a mayor part of the story still missing.
* The hammer, when Stanley failed to disband after conquering Faq.
(Assuming Charlie overheard Wanda talking to Stanley, arranged the extra dwagons, and the goblin revolt)
* Hammer, pliers and Parson, when the volcano at GK went live.
* Extra annoyance, when Parson interviewed the captured archons :mrgreen:

I would be amazed if artifacts such as the hammer would just pop up randomly.
Much more likely, it was the only thing left behind from a fight at that location,
where all sides involved managed to eliminate each other.

The nearest archons are a few turns away and race to collect the hammer,
but Stanley stumbles in, picks it up, and tames a dwagon --> "Sorry Charlie" :mrgreen:
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:29 pm

hajo wrote:
bladestorm wrote:the fundamental concept that the RCC is Royal vs nonroyal Overlord is also faulty. Otherwise, Charlie would be just as much of a target as Stanley. How is it that Jetstone can hold themselves so superior to Stanley that they want to wipe him out completely, but make no moves against Charlescomm? At the opening of Book One, GK was not a threat to anyone, no matter how hard they tried. Stanley was on the verge of mismanaging them into oblivion.

There's something else driving Jetstone to have such ire against GK.
..
Whatever it was that was driving JS and the RCC at the beginning of Book One goes far beyond simple elitism, divine mandate, or how Fate popped a certain unit.

My pet theory is that Charlie is behind most of these things, and he is going for world-domination.
For that, he needs to collect the arkentools.
His merc- and telco-business is just a convincent front. It allows him to have troops+spies everywhere (in MK too), and to scan a good part of the worldwide communication.
All this without raising too much suspicion, getting bonuspoints for being profitable 8-)
And Archons, to pass the time :mrgreen:

So he got thwarted by inept Stanley, on several occations:
* The hammer, when found by Stanley. This is a mayor part of the story still missing.
* The hammer, when Stanley failed to disband after conquering Faq.
(Assuming Charlie overheard Wanda talking to Stanley, arranged the extra dwagons, and the goblin revolt)
* Hammer, pliers and Parson, when the volcano at GK went live.
* Extra annoyance, when Parson interviewed the captured archons :mrgreen:

I would be amazed if artifacts such as the hammer would just pop up randomly.
Much more likely, it was the only thing left behind from a fight at that location,
where all sides involved managed to eliminate each other.

The nearest archons are a few turns away and race to collect the hammer,
but Stanley stumbles in, picks it up, and tames a dwagon --> "Sorry Charlie" :mrgreen:

And the Mathemancy bracer.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Jorgath » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:24 pm

Man, this is why I love the following things:

Erfworld.
The Internet.

I come on here a few days after my initial reaction to see other people's reactions, and instead of "hey, that's cool," I get long involved debates about cultural relativism, racism, Nazis, eugenics, morality, and philosophy.

I wonder what Kant would make of Erfworld?
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how charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:25 pm

vintermann wrote:No, because royal is a unit attribute. Stanley was popped as a piker to a royal side, but he's no royal.

On one hand, we don't know if Stanley was popped in the capital, which is a leading hypothesis for explaining royal vs. non-royal. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to be Noble, so that attribute likely only applies to Commanders, suggesting that Royalty would be the same.

Do we know if Noble is an actual attribute that affects stats, versus just a pedigree that Royals keep track of?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Jorgath » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:34 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:On one hand, we don't know if Stanley was popped in the capital, which is a leading hypothesis for explaining royal vs. non-royal. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to be Noble, so that attribute likely only applies to Commanders, suggesting that Royalty would be the same.

Do we know if Noble is an actual attribute that affects stats, versus just a pedigree that Royals keep track of?


IIRC, we know that Noble is an actual attribute, but we don't know if it affects stats or is just visible, and we don't know if the different Noble ranks are part of that attribute or something else.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Lamech » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Jorgath wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:On one hand, we don't know if Stanley was popped in the capital, which is a leading hypothesis for explaining royal vs. non-royal. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to be Noble, so that attribute likely only applies to Commanders, suggesting that Royalty would be the same.

Do we know if Noble is an actual attribute that affects stats, versus just a pedigree that Royals keep track of?


IIRC, we know that Noble is an actual attribute, but we don't know if it affects stats or is just visible, and we don't know if the different Noble ranks are part of that attribute or something else.

Its not actually visible. They weren't sure that Jillian was a princess. It DOES give a stat boost and leveling boost. However the stat portion of that can be more than subsumed by other factors or again Ansom would have instantly realized Jillian was a princess. So royals are, on average, better in terms of stats than non-royals.

Of course, if that meant that the royals were favored by the titans well... What about the attuned? Or even worse, what about casters? They laugh in the face of the stats of any royal warlord ever. "I swing a sword hard." vs "I rearrange physics with the power of my mind." Saying the royals are chosen to rule because of the titan's buff to them is a bit silly. For all we know that stat bonus is to balance out the "royal protocol" required to keep royals loyal.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby bladestorm » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:49 pm

Lamech wrote:
Jorgath wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:On one hand, we don't know if Stanley was popped in the capital, which is a leading hypothesis for explaining royal vs. non-royal. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to be Noble, so that attribute likely only applies to Commanders, suggesting that Royalty would be the same.

Do we know if Noble is an actual attribute that affects stats, versus just a pedigree that Royals keep track of?


IIRC, we know that Noble is an actual attribute, but we don't know if it affects stats or is just visible, and we don't know if the different Noble ranks are part of that attribute or something else.

Its not actually visible. They weren't sure that Jillian was a princess. It DOES give a stat boost and leveling boost. However the stat portion of that can be more than subsumed by other factors or again Ansom would have instantly realized Jillian was a princess. So royals are, on average, better in terms of stats than non-royals.

Of course, if that meant that the royals were favored by the titans well... What about the attuned? Or even worse, what about casters? They laugh in the face of the stats of any royal warlord ever. "I swing a sword hard." vs "I rearrange physics with the power of my mind." Saying the royals are chosen to rule because of the titan's buff to them is a bit silly. For all we know that stat bonus is to balance out the "royal protocol" required to keep royals loyal.

So like Ansom said when he completely went off in Book One, "I am directly descended from those whom the Titans chose to rule. I am stronger, smarter, and more morally fit than those of a lesser station. It is my privelege, and my burden, to lead both man and beast."
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Salem » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:37 pm

[quote="Lamech]Of course, if that meant that the royals were favored by the titans well... What about the attuned? Or even worse, what about casters? They laugh in the face of the stats of any royal warlord ever. "I swing a sword hard." vs "I rearrange physics with the power of my mind." Saying the royals are chosen to rule because of the titan's buff to them is a bit silly. For all we know that stat bonus is to balance out the "royal protocol" required to keep royals loyal.[/quote]

Not sure if that is entirely true. I swing my sword amazingly well might be dangerous for a caster. It could have just been having a warlord stacked makes casters really dangerous but Jojo and his crew seemed to imply fighting wasn't their thing like it was a warlord's. Warlords may have magic resistance, other bonuses etc.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 057

Postby Housellama » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:16 pm

Salem wrote:They have orange/blue morality, not black/white. Lesser troops actually ARE expendable to their moral scheme, this is what makes Parson so different to them, Maggie makes a point of it.
Not only are they expendable, but they know that they are expendable and they are happy to be expendable because it's their purpose in life to die for their Ruler and Side.

Salem wrote:You have a flaw in your argument you say it's a false science because it presupposes people like you are superior to those not. The flaw being you presuppose that it's impossible for one people to be superior to another. This is based on the idea that humans as a species are so genetically similar that there is for all intents and purposes no difference. But I would never make the claim that I was the equal of Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. and that's probably because I'm missing their greatest message of equality. But their compassion stat is muuuch higher than mine. If I lived in a world where I could see all the relevant stats (Not to say that's Erf so lets call it World A) I might think different. Say I had a blue/orange morality where intelligence meant superiority and I could see everyone's int stat and one species had a natural stat double every other race. Or say I lived in World A and I had a system of beliefs that led me to believe that superiority is defined by compassion, caring, empathy, morality, and honesty and I could see those stats.
The problem with asking "What makes you so superior?" to a Royal is similar to asking a general "Yeah, you and what army?". The answer is inherent in the question itself.

Now, the question isn't whether or not Royal units are superior. That's patently obvious. They have better stats, they level faster, they have a number of benefits that non-Royals simply do not. That makes them, from the sense of comparing one unit to another, superior. The question is "What does this superiority mean?" The Royalists interpret it to be the divine will of the Titans that they should lead. "Since everything in Erfworld has a purpose, being better means that we should be in charge". That was Don King's mouse and wolf analogy. The Toolist interpretation is that Royalty is an accident of birth, and that the Fate of those who attune to the literal Tools of the Titans makes them superior to those who are simply metaphorical tools of the Titans.

Royals are better. The big argument is about what that means.

Salem wrote:
imgran wrote:Just bear one thing in mind people.

These are not human beings.


Agreed, I would not appreciate a story where racism is glorified. Now one where a racist wins is a different story, but it would depend on how that ending is portrayed good vs bad ending. I like sad stories. However I think Erf is different it deals with orange/blue morality and a system that holds a mirror to ourselves. We DO believe in superiority we just coat it with pretty paint, but in a world where stats and abilities are open and obvious that paint starts to wear thin. Hence one of the hidden gems of Erfworld, I love you Rob! Marry me!
Exactly. Erfworld is a Game-like World, and both parts are equally important. In games, some units are just plain better than others. In a world, you can argue about what that means. And that's exactly what's going on here. Their orange/blue morality equates outward signs as Titan's Truth. Most often because it is. When you get two competing Truths (Royal vs. Attuned) the question is no longer so clear cut.

drachefly wrote:
wrecan wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Of course if he wants to rule over me he can since he can pick me up and break me, but does his strength give him the right to do that?

In ErfWorld he rules over you because you were popped as a subject in the Side that we was popped specifically to rule. His birthright gives him that right in a way that birthright in the real world does not.

It certainly gives him that ability. Arguably the only ensuing right is by a leviathan argument and the asymmetry in the powers.
Salem wrote:But that's all the murky territory of rights. DO people really have any at all? Or is it just a construct of society.
In the end, all power boils down to the strong ruling the weak. In nature as well as society. A star is a constant battle of forces. Gravity vs nuclear forces. The strongest at any given time overrides the weakest. It gets a little bit more complicated when you start to move into intelligent beings. A single male lion is strong, but the combined might of a group of females is stronger still. The lion gets his way one on one, but when many act as one entity, the lionesses run him off with his tail between her legs. When you get to humans, it's more complicated still. You get into questions of what power really is and the concepts of justice and fairness, but in the end, societies enforce their rules by the weight of common consent. Police have power because society as a whole wants to sleep safely, so they invest that power into a class of peacekeepers. They are small in number, but carry the weight of the greater whole. In the end, it's still the strong ruling the weak.

In Erfworld, it just happens to be built into the fabric of reality, in the form of Duty and Loyalty, not to mention Attack, Defense, Level, Specials and Titans know what else. Some units are just inherently more powerful. That's reality. Society is what decides how they react to that.
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