Book 2 – Page 93

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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:33 am

Sieggy wrote:What I find REALLY interesting is that Ace allowed his friendship for Cubbins to override direct orders from royalty. Yes, he's rationalizing that the bonus he gives the golems is more important than his retreating with Trem, but still . . . HE'S DISOBEYING A DIRECT ORDER AND NOT AUTODISBANDING!

He's disobeying an order for the same reason that we see many characters ignoring orders and spell effects, because of the whole force that this section is about. LOVE. Love is his battlefield too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby TheWombat » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:53 am

0beron wrote:
Sieggy wrote:What I find REALLY interesting is that Ace allowed his friendship for Cubbins to override direct orders from royalty. Yes, he's rationalizing that the bonus he gives the golems is more important than his retreating with Trem, but still . . . HE'S DISOBEYING A DIRECT ORDER AND NOT AUTODISBANDING!

He's disobeying an order for the same reason that we see many characters ignoring orders and spell effects, because of the whole force that this section is about. LOVE. Love is his battlefield too.


And with that we have no conformation that he did burn Slately's body. Was it more important for him to burn the body, or to make sure to save Cubbins? Nothing is settled as he alone was given the order.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Kaed » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:09 am

0beron wrote:Also speaking of Ace/Cubbins....I may be a biased fanboy for saying this, but I have a bit of a request. So far the comic has kinda taken the typical internet slant of "ooooooh sexy lesbian action!" while ignoring the gays. So could we maybe get a little something? A kiss, a flashback in a text update? Just a little something similar to Wanda/Olive and Wanda/Jillian to make the gaymers cheer.
No-One kinda mentioned it in a thread over here so if the readers have opinions on the lesbian/gay imbalance, maybe we should discuss there instead of the main thread.


I feel like that would be going a little too far. Maybe Rob will do it, maybe he won't. But I've always just seen this as Ace trying to save his best buddy. If there is love going on, I think it is unrequited by "Cybbins".

Also don't ever use that word again. :I
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:10 am

Oh dear....we totally missed a subtle revelation! FIRE DESTROYS CORPSES! (and prevents them from being Uncroaked).
If Sylvia lights up the Garrison, this could be DISASTROUS for Wanda's chances of rebuilding the army....
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Vorteks » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:14 am

0beron wrote:Oh dear....we totally missed a subtle revelation! FIRE DESTROYS CORPSES! (and prevents them from being Uncroaked).
If Sylvia lights up the Garrison, this could be DISASTROUS for Wanda's chances of rebuilding the army....


That is a very good point. I highly doubt that Wanda would approve of Sylvia's orders if she were present.

And I too wonder (as has already been mentioned here), if Ace burned the king's body as ordered or if he forgot in his haste. It's entirely possible that he burned him before joining the ditto-king, but given his shock and the hurry he seemed to be in, the alternative also seems possible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Lamech » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:16 am

Another possibility is that Ace decided to NOT burn the body. He is hoping the king is saved by Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby hajo » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:24 am

0beron wrote:we totally missed a subtle revelation! FIRE DESTROYS CORPSES! (and prevents them from being Uncroaked).

We didn't miss that - Bogroll's body was burned, and Wanda couldn't decrypt him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:31 am

hajo wrote:We didn't miss [fire destroying corpses] - Bogroll's body was burned, and Wanda couldn't decrypt him.

Hmmmm I had forgotten that tidbit. However, now that you bring up the example of the volcano, it complicates things. Most of those bodies burned too, but she decrypted them. So this either means they didn't burn *enough* or decryption can bypass that unlike uncroaking.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Brucester » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:35 am

0beron wrote:
hajo wrote:We didn't miss [fire destroying corpses] - Bogroll's body was burned, and Wanda couldn't decrypt him.

Hmmmm I had forgotten that tidbit. However, I wouldn't say that was fire, that was because his body was presumably separated into bits without enough left to decrypt. However, now that you bring up the example of the volcano, it complicates things. Most of those bodies burned too, but she decrypted them. So this either means they didn't burn *enough* or decryption can bypass that unlike uncroaking.


Yep, GK was destroyed by volcanic eruption and yet Wanda was able to uncroak those who died in fire.
What you see in this strip is an assumption on the part of Jetstone. Trem assumes that if the body is destroyed in fire that it cannot be uncroaked.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:39 am

Brucester wrote:What you see in this strip is an assumption on the part of Jetstone. Trem assumes that if the body is destroyed in fire that it cannot be uncroaked.

Well I actually ammended my post, because Hajo was right. We see in the background the Bogroll was indeed burned. So that implies fire normally would work on uncroaking it seems. However we still don't know if the inability to decrypt Bogroll was due to that burning, or due to the burnt corpse being further disfigured by the eruption.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby bladestorm » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:48 am

0beron wrote:
Brucester wrote:What you see in this strip is an assumption on the part of Jetstone. Trem assumes that if the body is destroyed in fire that it cannot be uncroaked.

Well I actually ammended my post, because Hajo was right. We see in the background the Bogroll was indeed burned. So that implies fire normally would work on uncroaking it seems. However we still don't know if the inability to decrypt Bogroll was due to that burning, or due to the burnt corpse being further disfigured by the eruption.

I thought Wanda had found enough of bogroll to know that she couldn't decrypt him, meaning that he was in too small of parts to be decrypted as a whole unit. Everything else was basically whole from being one-shotted by the explosion.


There's also room in the story for Cubbins to be decrypted, and one day face Ace on the battlefield. Much emotional angst from Ace on that day. Will he be able to dust his bestest buddy ever? Or would the love of his bromance drive him to find a way to bring Cubbins back, the way Ossomer came back?
Last edited by bladestorm on Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Whispri » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:52 am

I can't help but wonder where Mary Sagittari and her family are. Assembled for the charge? Promoted from Garrison to retreat. Or have they been forgotten again, left to their own devices on the walls? I wouldn't be surprised if it's the latter tbh..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby joosy » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:00 am

Vorteks wrote:
0beron wrote:Oh dear....we totally missed a subtle revelation! FIRE DESTROYS CORPSES! (and prevents them from being Uncroaked).
If Sylvia lights up the Garrison, this could be DISASTROUS for Wanda's chances of rebuilding the army....


That is a very good point. I highly doubt that Wanda would approve of Sylvia's orders if she were present.

And I too wonder (as has already been mentioned here), if Ace burned the king's body as ordered or if he forgot in his haste. It's entirely possible that he burned him before joining the ditto-king, but given his shock and the hurry he seemed to be in, the alternative also seems possible.


Stanley's chewing out of Parson earlier on indicates that one CANNOT disobey an order without somehow rationalizing it as being for the good of the side/turning or disbanding. Parson was able to 'disobey' because he did not know that he had to physically walk the city to manage it, but he is a unique case.

In Ace's case, the order was to 'have it burned' not to burn it himself. Ace could have easily delegated that to others before he ran off to join not-Slately. Unless Rob is trying to establish that love can supercede Duty, I don't think Ace can forsake his as of yet.

edit; Or he could just be postponing the task until later.
Last edited by joosy on Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby drachefly » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:01 am

Sieggy wrote:And what I find REALLY interesting is that Ace allowed his friendship for Cubbins to override direct orders from royalty. Yes, he's rationalizing that the bonus he gives the golems is more important than his retreating with Trem, but still . . . HE'S DISOBEYING A DIRECT ORDER AND NOT AUTODISBANDING! It might be a case of 'for the greater good', as when Wanda refused to appoint just another pretty boy as CWL, but still . . .


Or perhaps there's more wiggle room because's appealing to the king. It'd totally mess around with what we consider the chain of command, but...


As for Bogroll and fire and lava and such: think Vesuvius. Lava may set fire to your outer layers, but the fire is smothered before it has a chance to consume you. There will be a body unless you were lying right on the surface. Cremating someone allows complete consumption of the remains.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Sallo » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:37 am

good comic. Good character development.
Completely worth the wait!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby kefkakrazy » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:52 am

drachefly wrote:As for Bogroll and fire and lava and such: think Vesuvius. Lava may set fire to your outer layers, but the fire is smothered before it has a chance to consume you. There will be a body unless you were lying right on the surface. Cremating someone allows complete consumption of the remains.


The areas destroyed by Vesuvius blowing its top weren't buried in lava, though; it dumped tons and tons and tons of volcanic ash onto and buried everything. Which, you're right, wouldn't destroy bodies at all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Morni » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:11 pm

kefkakrazy wrote:
drachefly wrote:As for Bogroll and fire and lava and such: think Vesuvius. Lava may set fire to your outer layers, but the fire is smothered before it has a chance to consume you. There will be a body unless you were lying right on the surface. Cremating someone allows complete consumption of the remains.


The areas destroyed by Vesuvius blowing its top weren't buried in lava, though; it dumped tons and tons and tons of volcanic ash onto and buried everything. Which, you're right, wouldn't destroy bodies at all.


Maybe it has to be destroy by fire with the intend for it to not be uncroaked/decrypted.

A unit could die by fire and have burn marks... but then a unit could die by fire and become ash.

For Bogroll, they made sure that it wouldn't regenerate or be uncroaked.
ps: back then twoll had the regenerate feature and not the fabricate.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby mortissimus » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:39 pm

They sure look like they are burning: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F137.jpg

If we look at the corpses Wanda decrypts after TBfGK they don't look burned, just dead: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F146.jpg

Morni wrote:Maybe it has to be destroy by fire with the intend for it to not be uncroaked/decrypted.


Maybe the corpse does not automagickly burn even if the unit is killed by fire. We are talking about a world where arrows get stuck at hex barriers, so a burning body leaving a pristine corpse would fit in.

Edit: Jetpack missing in second panel. Just saying.
Last edited by mortissimus on Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Salem » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:40 pm

Crazyterran wrote:Interesting that Tramennis is going against his father's order to attack the portal room and kill Parson, and is instead retreating.


I believe Trem is following the strategy, I believe slately's plan was to go in alone and have Trem retreat so the side would not die.

Morni wrote:Maybe it has to be destroy by fire with the intend for it to not be uncroaked/decrypted.

A unit could die by fire and have burn marks... but then a unit could die by fire and become ash.

For Bogroll, they made sure that it wouldn't regenerate or be uncroaked.
ps: back then twoll had the regenerate feature and not the fabricate.


Lets list possibilites because everyone loves a good list almost as much as everyone loves Cubbins deep down in the depths of their hearts.
Game Mechanics
1. Fire does damage, if fire goes past point X the body cannot be revived.
2. Damage does damage, if the body is damaged enough it can't be revived. Wanda mentioned how she spends juice to fix each thing or at least to make it workable. If it was chopped to peices, itsy bitsy peices, it might take too much juice or just not be possible, pliers being possibly infinite juice. (Ash being loooooots of little peices)
3. Being killed by fire has no effect, a corpse hit by fire does. Therefore bogroll is dead, volcano goes off bogroll destroyed. We have no idea how much the casters blasted bogroll either.
4. Being deliberate in a body not being raised is what does it. Perhaps it's an action units can take. "Destroy corpse" "Purify Remains" and for some reason they alos chose to do that to bogroll. (Unlikely this probably would have been said specifically)

Note: Sylvia was clearly burned by the eruption she even makes note of it. So that is a major factor in what we know.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Knight13 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:48 pm

One thing I think we need to remember is that Parson is not part of the normal Loyalty mechanics of Erfworld. His loyalty to Stanley is enforced by the Perfect Warlord spell. It forces him to obey Stanley and, supposedly, if he disobeys it will autodisband him. We do not know if the same applies to normal Erfworld units that disobey orders. In fact, we've seen units disobey orders and not autodisband at least a couple times, so I don't think it does.

One thing we can say for Ace, if he does get turned to Gobwin Know he certainly won't feel unappreciated anymore. Parson would go to town with all the custom magic items he can make.
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