Book 2 – Page 93

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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby bladestorm » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:58 pm

joosy wrote:
Vorteks wrote:
0beron wrote:Oh dear....we totally missed a subtle revelation! FIRE DESTROYS CORPSES! (and prevents them from being Uncroaked).
If Sylvia lights up the Garrison, this could be DISASTROUS for Wanda's chances of rebuilding the army....


That is a very good point. I highly doubt that Wanda would approve of Sylvia's orders if she were present.

And I too wonder (as has already been mentioned here), if Ace burned the king's body as ordered or if he forgot in his haste. It's entirely possible that he burned him before joining the ditto-king, but given his shock and the hurry he seemed to be in, the alternative also seems possible.


Stanley's chewing out of Parson earlier on indicates that one CANNOT disobey an order without somehow rationalizing it as being for the good of the side/turning or disbanding. Parson was able to 'disobey' because he did not know that he had to physically walk the city to manage it, but he is a unique case.

In Ace's case, the order was to 'have it burned' not to burn it himself. Ace could have easily delegated that to others before he ran off to join not-Slately. Unless Rob is trying to establish that love can supercede Duty, I don't think Ace can forsake his as of yet.

edit; Or he could just be postponing the task until later.

Maybe it has to do with Intent. If you bear a malicious intent towards your Ruler while actively disobeying a command, you disband. If you just passively disobey, such as Parson not knowing he was mucking with production or Ace running off to inquire about his friend rather than immediately torching the body, there's no malicious Intent, so no disband. Also when Wanda argued against promoting another warlord-- her intent wasn't malicious towards Stanley, and she followed by respectfully pointing out an alternate path. I liken it a lot of insubordination in the military. One can present arguments against a direct order, defy a direct order in order to achieve mission accomplishment and save more lives than if you had followed the order, or if doing so is more beneficial to the unit, or if you can present an alternate to the order that better fulfills the unit's purpose. You have to be respectful about it, limit the amount of times it happens, and make sure unit integrity and discipline are maintained (and especially do not let anyone below your rank witness it), but it can be done. If you disobey a direct order and things get messed up, or do so on a regular basis, are crass or disrespectful about it, leads to further insubordination from other troops, or there is no benefit to anyone other than yourself, that's your boop and you can expect serious repercussions. It's a very delicate thing, and must be handled with great care, but it can be done. Sometimes, it even leads to a promotion or accommodation, but don't expect it to be a consistent method of gaining rank.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Morni » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:03 pm

Salem wrote:3. Being killed by fire has no effect, a corpse hit by fire does. Therefore bogroll is dead, volcano goes off bogroll destroyed. We have no idea how much the casters blasted bogroll either.


Nitpicking here. their was no caster in RCC1.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby bladestorm » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:12 pm

Salem wrote:
Lets list possibilites because everyone loves a good list almost as much as everyone loves Cubbins deep down in the depths of their hearts.
Game Mechanics

3. Being killed by fire has no effect, a corpse hit by fire does. Therefore bogroll is dead, volcano goes off bogroll destroyed. We have no idea how much the casters blasted bogroll either.
4. Being deliberate in a body not being raised is what does it. Perhaps it's an action units can take. "Destroy corpse" "Purify Remains" and for some reason they alos chose to do that to bogroll. (Unlikely this probably would have been said specifically)

Note: Sylvia was clearly burned by the eruption she even makes note of it. So that is a major factor in what we know.

We can't separate it by when the unit died compared to when the volcano erupted, siting that Bogroll died before the eruption and left no corpse. Ansom died at Bogroll's hands, and his corpse was still found.

It could be, though, that Bogroll'ss corpse was intentionally destroyed and separated into very small bit (to counter the retconned Regeneration), while Ansom's body was intact when the volcano went off. So maybe any 'corpse' that was present when the volcano went off, or made when the volcano went off, and was still intact could be decrypted. Destroying a 'corpse' makes it uncroakable.

Or, the volcano could have just done 'damage' to all of the living units as per an attack, and not damaged 'objects' in the hex.

Or Wanda could have just been lying about it and had no intention of decrypting Bogroll anyway. F that moron, decrypting won't make him any less useless or annoying.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Justyn » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:05 pm

bladestorm wrote:Maybe it has to do with Intent. If you bear a malicious intent towards your Ruler while actively disobeying a command, you disband. If you just passively disobey, such as Parson not knowing he was mucking with production or Ace running off to inquire about his friend rather than immediately torching the body, there's no malicious Intent, so no disband. Also when Wanda argued against promoting another warlord-- her intent wasn't malicious towards Stanley, and she followed by respectfully pointing out an alternate path. I liken it a lot of insubordination in the military. One can present arguments against a direct order, defy a direct order in order to achieve mission accomplishment and save more lives than if you had followed the order, or if doing so is more beneficial to the unit, or if you can present an alternate to the order that better fulfills the unit's purpose. You have to be respectful about it, limit the amount of times it happens, and make sure unit integrity and discipline are maintained (and especially do not let anyone below your rank witness it), but it can be done. If you disobey a direct order and things get messed up, or do so on a regular basis, are crass or disrespectful about it, leads to further insubordination from other troops, or there is no benefit to anyone other than yourself, that's your boop and you can expect serious repercussions. It's a very delicate thing, and must be handled with great care, but it can be done. Sometimes, it even leads to a promotion or accommodation, but don't expect it to be a consistent method of gaining rank.


It's also possible that this isn't an Erf-wide thing that effects everyone, and rather simply something stemming from the Summoning Spell that was used to summon Parson. We already know that the summoning spell has automagical effects on Parson (Stanley ordering him to laugh causes him to laugh uncontrollably, ordering him to shut up renders him incapable of speech), why is it a stretch to assume that this isn't another such effect?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby bladestorm » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:16 pm

Justyn wrote:It's also possible that this isn't an Erf-wide thing that effects everyone, and rather simply something stemming from the Summoning Spell that was used to summon Parson. We already know that the summoning spell has automagical effects on Parson (Stanley ordering him to laugh causes him to laugh uncontrollably, ordering him to shut up renders him incapable of speech), why is it a stretch to assume that this isn't another such effect?

Because Parson isn't the only entity that someone as pondered why they haven't disbanded for their actions. Erfworlders have been depicted as disobeying direct orders and not disbanding, so in their cases, it's not an effect of the SPW spell.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Justyn » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:23 pm

bladestorm wrote:
Justyn wrote:It's also possible that this isn't an Erf-wide thing that effects everyone, and rather simply something stemming from the Summoning Spell that was used to summon Parson. We already know that the summoning spell has automagical effects on Parson (Stanley ordering him to laugh causes him to laugh uncontrollably, ordering him to shut up renders him incapable of speech), why is it a stretch to assume that this isn't another such effect?

Because Parson isn't the only entity that someone as pondered why they haven't disbanded for their actions. Erfworlders have been depicted as disobeying direct orders and not disbanding, so in their cases, it's not an effect of the SPW spell.


I'm a bit hazy on what you're talking about, can you link to it?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Berserkas » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:47 pm

One big thing people seem to be missing here: Tramennis is leaving. He's the chief warlord. When does he leave? Before the attack? After it? If he leaves before, the troops lose a significant battle advantage. If Wanda and Parson come back before the attack starts, they'd both add to the bonuses of all the Decrypted that are massed in the garrison. It could turn very, very ugly for Jetstone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Whispri » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:47 pm

bladestorm wrote:Or Wanda could have just been lying about it and had no intention of decrypting Bogroll anyway. F that moron, decrypting won't make him any less useless or annoying.

Which is of course why she made him flunky to the Chief Warlord.

Berserkas wrote:One big thing people seem to be missing here: Tramennis is leaving. He's the chief warlord. When does he leave? Before the attack? After it? If he leaves before, the troops lose a significant battle advantage. If Wanda and Parson come back before the attack starts, they'd both add to the bonuses of all the Decrypted that are massed in the garrison. It could turn very, very ugly for Jetstone.

I was figuring he was going to lurk right by the gates and leg it if the garrison fight turned south.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:12 pm

Whispri wrote:An appalling display of mortism in the third panel.

Where is that throne room anyway? It's obviously an intact chamber, but the tower look completely ruined. Against that, they seemed to think Cubbins will be near the throne, or at least in the general area. Perhaps there's an intact area on the ground floor of the Tower? Hasn't seemed to be in the overhead shots though. I mean, not with a ceiling, which archer seemed to be under.


Since the Garrison has a Palace Complex as one of it's features, I'd guess the Throne Room is in the Palace.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-20.png

"Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby mortissimus » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:18 pm

Whispri wrote:
Berserkas wrote:One big thing people seem to be missing here: Tramennis is leaving. He's the chief warlord. When does he leave? Before the attack? After it? If he leaves before, the troops lose a significant battle advantage. If Wanda and Parson come back before the attack starts, they'd both add to the bonuses of all the Decrypted that are massed in the garrison. It could turn very, very ugly for Jetstone.

I was figuring he was going to lurk right by the gates and leg it if the garrison fight turned south.


Problem with that is that if they croak Cubbins (by fire or some other way) then the city falls without warning. So best would be if Tremennis leaves and they appoint their highest level warlord that goes with Slatley. Or if no warlord goes with Slatley, then appoint Slatley as CW.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:19 pm

kefkakrazy wrote:
drachefly wrote:As for Bogroll and fire and lava and such: think Vesuvius. Lava may set fire to your outer layers, but the fire is smothered before it has a chance to consume you. There will be a body unless you were lying right on the surface. Cremating someone allows complete consumption of the remains.


The areas destroyed by Vesuvius blowing its top weren't buried in lava, though; it dumped tons and tons and tons of volcanic ash onto and buried everything. Which, you're right, wouldn't destroy bodies at all.


Actually, they were buried by Pyrocastic Flows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyroclastic_flow
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:20 pm

mortissimus wrote:Problem with that is that if they croak Cubbins (by fire or some other way) then the city falls without warning. So best would be if Tremennis leaves and they appoint their highest level warlord that goes with Slatley. Or if no warlord goes with Slatley, then appoint Slatley as CW.

Two problems with this. 1) Appointing a CWL costs money, which Jetstone currently has none of. 2) Slately is still functionally the King, so even if they had the money I don't believe he could also be CWL.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby BanzaiJoe » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:21 pm

I don't know what it was about this particular page, but I just got that hair-standing-up, this is getting crazy, here we go for the big fight feeling. Even with all the Parsons stuff, it was just building. I guess I'd say, "this dragon poop just got real."

/goosebumps
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:24 pm

Sieggy wrote:Awesome art, awesome writing. And what I find REALLY interesting is that Ace allowed his friendship for Cubbins to override direct orders from royalty. Yes, he's rationalizing that the bonus he gives the golems is more important than his retreating with Trem, but still . . . HE'S DISOBEYING A DIRECT ORDER AND NOT AUTODISBANDING! It might be a case of 'for the greater good', as when Wanda refused to appoint just another pretty boy as CWL, but still . . .

I wonder if the 'autodisband' function only works of you believe it and feel you actually deserve it - if disbanding is as much a matter of faith as anything else.


No.

It's already been explained that a unit can disobey a direct order if they believe they're fulfilling their Duty. There are three Natural Thinkamancies involved, not just obedience, but duty and loyalty as well.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Duty

"Duty affects Commanders only, which means it affects Warlords, Casters, and possibly Chiefs of Natural Allies. It has a higher affect on Warlords, highest on Chief Warlord. It makes them want to use their own initiative in the service of the Ruler. It also makes them reluctant to withhold information, unless they are convinced that it is in their Ruler's best interests for them to do so."

Maggie has stated that "Duty, in fact, compels us to take actions to benefit our ruler and our side" http://www.erfworld.com/2009/08/summer- ... 80%93-026/

This is not a revelation and doesn't mean auto-disbanding is a myth or self-imposed.

Note that Duty also only applies to Warlords and Casters, and doesn't apply to Stabbers or other ordinary troops. This means Commander units just have much more leeway where Obedience is concerned because they are expected to act based on Duty in measure with Loyalty and Obedience.

So Ace isn't doing anything noteworthy here.

When an ordinary spear carrier throws down his spear and says no to his commander and doesn't disband, then you'll have a case.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby bladestorm » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:52 pm

Justyn wrote:
bladestorm wrote:
Justyn wrote:It's also possible that this isn't an Erf-wide thing that effects everyone, and rather simply something stemming from the Summoning Spell that was used to summon Parson. We already know that the summoning spell has automagical effects on Parson (Stanley ordering him to laugh causes him to laugh uncontrollably, ordering him to shut up renders him incapable of speech), why is it a stretch to assume that this isn't another such effect?

Because Parson isn't the only entity that someone as pondered why they haven't disbanded for their actions. Erfworlders have been depicted as disobeying direct orders and not disbanding, so in their cases, it's not an effect of the SPW spell.


I'm a bit hazy on what you're talking about, can you link to it?

The topic came up in the discussion of IPtSF Episode 043, where Marika disobeyed Jillians orders and was intentionally insubordinant.
Also came up Book 2 Page 56, concerning Transylvito, and broadened out to cover other instances on page 10.
Mentioned earlier in this very forum discussion about suppressing the autodisband.
Book 2 Page 69, Discussion page 7
Book 2 Text Update 054 With Cubbins refusing to leave the tower when order to do so, instead popping a cap on his own initiative and leading to his CMoA.
Kreistor brings it up again in the discussion of IPtSF Episode 029 page 7 concerning every example we have of a warlord disobeying an order had some sort of justification. This continues on into a debate over Obedience and Duty, which has a separate discussion forum.
IPtSF Episode 034 brought it up in reference to Marie's prediction and outright lying to the King, and using Fate as an excuse to loophole around the autodisband.

The topic comes up quite a bit concerning Erfworlders, so it's not something linked to the SPW spell.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Morni » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:54 pm

Berserkas wrote:One big thing people seem to be missing here: Tramennis is leaving. He's the chief warlord. When does he leave? Before the attack? After it? If he leaves before, the troops lose a significant battle advantage. If Wanda and Parson come back before the attack starts, they'd both add to the bonuses of all the Decrypted that are massed in the garrison. It could turn very, very ugly for Jetstone.


Tremn has to leave the city before the 3 garrison zone (tower?, tunnel?, courtyard?) is under GK control or he becomes captured.

If Tremn and the king is croaked or captured, then it's Checkmate for his side. The king went to great expense to promote Tremn to heir.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:59 pm

On the auto-disband topic, like someone before mentioned, Duty is a KEY influence. Even with Merika, because she was upset with Jillian, she may have truly believed that being insubordinate and doing her own plan was better, because "Jillian was compromised/inept". And as I mentioned before, Love is a central theme of this whole story as a possible force stronger than magic or natural-mancies.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby bladestorm » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:21 pm

0beron wrote:On the auto-disband topic, like someone before mentioned, Duty is a KEY influence. Even with Merika, because she was upset with Jillian, she may have truly believed that being insubordinate and doing her own plan was better, because "Jillian was compromised/inept". And as I mentioned before, Love is a central theme of this whole story as a possible force stronger than magic or natural-mancies.

Exactly. It happens numerous times over the course of the story with different individuals, but there are justifications and loopholes for every instance. This is why I made the suggestion that Intent plays a huge part in the autodisband mechanism. Ceasar standing up to Don when the treasury was almost empty and denying Don the moneymancer to produce that gem did not have the intent of being disrespectful to or malicious towards Don. It was more important to maintain their own side rather than spend the entire treasury on what was deemed a loss. No autodisband.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby onlyme » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:54 pm

0beron wrote:Two problems with this. 1) Appointing a CWL costs money, which Jetstone currently has none of.


Haven't you seen that gem Charlie sent? I doubt you need such a big gem only to promote someone to hair.
Also note that gem was sent after the new plan (go after the throne room) was already agreed on, so I guess Charlie would sent some more money then agreed for the already done tasks to both make sure Jetstone considers him on their side and to allow Jetstone do whatever necessary to make that plan possible.

And I'm not really sure there is any direct indication appointing CWLs cost money. Is there?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby fehler » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:56 pm

Where is the non-dittoed Jetstone-pack?
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