Book 2 – Page 93

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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby effataigus » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:33 pm

Cubbins wrote:I wonder if anyone who browses these boards was born lacking a sense but, through recent medical breakthroughs, has had it 'reactivated' in some capacity, and if so maybe they could tell us (as best they can, anyway) what that experience is like.


I was born without a fashion sense... but, through shaming by various girlfriends, have since developed small intuition for what doesn't look good...

More seriously, I almost cut my thumb off once, and did sever a nerve. My sense of touch has been returning over the decade since, but I still can't feel temperature with it. The only thing that seems different psychologically is that I've picked up an obsessive thing where I touch the thumb with my forefinger nearly constantly... checking how complete the sensation feels. Mebbe there is a lesson there regarding Stanley: he's overly bossy because he remembers not having the ability to command and is constantly testing his own control... maybe not ;-)

So, assuming ~30 archons, with 5k per archon and 25k bonus for one being alive... we get =<~170k schmuckers to promote Tram to heir (since all we know is that it'll be enough to promote Tram... not that all of it would be required). If you believe that Charlie's comment implies that not having the living-archon bonus would make it so the total is NOT enough to promote Tram (which is the most logical interpretation in my mind, but is by no means the only one), then we can estimate the price at ~170k>=X>~150k.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby onlyme » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:37 pm

Cubbins wrote:
Avic wrote:Sylvia of Unaroyal was a common stabber before Jeffy casted on her, after which she was promoted to Warlord.


Reading that comic now, actually. She refers to the event so off-handedly, like it wasn't a completely mind-altering experience suddenly having the ability to, well, choose (then again, this might be partly due to the influence of Decryption, Wanda being in the battlespace or not). I dunno...


Just because it was altering her mind does not mean she must perceived it that way.
Take a look at Book 2 – Text Updates 056. That describes nicely the feeling of a unit missing the leadership bonus.
We now she is a scout and has no leadership, so she must hide. She cannot engage, cannot help her friends that need help, cannot do anything. She knows the rule, but she does not see the rule as the cause but she rationalizes why she does not:

Book 2 - Text Update 056 wrote:And if she revealed herself, then she’d be tagged, too. She knew it.

She should fight, though.

She wasn’t thinking of the team here, which they always told her was the worst thing you could
do. This wouldn’t look very good on her next review. “Teamwork ethic still improving” would be
written there, and maybe, “confidence remains a deficit area for Phoebe.”

Even without watching, the shouts and blasts and last cries were so clear. That sound was a
sword hacking someone, ribs snapping. She should help. That was someone dissolving. She should
fly in and stack up with anyone else, and fight. And help.

But now Rachel was gone, and there was no-one to tell her what to do. Scouts don’t autoengage if
they can hide, and she could hide really, really well. Better than she could fight. So...she
should do that, right? Made sense. Made perfect sense.


Now what if someone gave her leadership in that moment, by making her warlord or anything else.
Would she perceive the total newness of being able to decide whether to engage or not? Or would
she now be able to engage and not perceive it as something totally new, but only as a "had to be done"?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby No one in particular » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:42 pm

That's not a very good example of a unit without leadership, though. A better example would be Text 24.

Where Phoebe feels scared, and tries to justify her actions, Wrigley... doesn't.
Wrigley wrote:Standing in an unled stack blessed him with a feeling of comfort, purpose, unity.


Archons, from what we've seen, all seem to be commanders. Phoebe there wasn't trying to justify why "no leadership means I shouldn't fight, even though I want to," she was trying to justify to herself that her cowardice was really Duty.

On a side note, there seems to have been 28 archons on Gobwin Knob's side, according to First Intermission 7.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby sheepfly » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:11 pm

No one in particular wrote:On a side note, there seems to have been 28 archons on Gobwin Knob's side, according to First Intermission 7.


In a subsequent summer update, a conversation between Charlie and Parson indicates that Charlie lost at least one additional archon (his only type of field unit), possibly more, when they entered GK's battlespace. If Charlie's archons were using Foolamancy on stealth recon, we can surmise that GK's decrypted archons detected the living ones.
http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png

And it's a safe bet that any slain archon would be retrieved and decrypted. So... GK had at least 28, but probably more. And Charlie offered to pay for every archon dusted, even the one killed before Tramennis called.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -09-15.jpg
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Yeah..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Goshen » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:46 pm

After all this, I wonder if Tram is still interested in parlay with Parson. That's a conversation I would really like to see, but it's getting unlikely in the short term. In the long term, Tram being Overlord of Jetstone probably makes it inevitable.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -10-09.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Lamech » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:49 pm

Goshen wrote:After all this, I wonder if Tram is still interested in parlay with Parson. That's a conversation I would really like to see, but it's getting unlikely in the short term. In the long term, Tram being Overlord of Jetstone probably makes it inevitable.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -10-09.jpg

I really hope it involves Parson mocking the RCC II for its repeated violations of parley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Sixty » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:51 am

name lips wrote:It was part of his confusion for Parson failing to "inspect" the city properly. Parson didn't know what inspection was. As far as Stanley was concerned, ignorance isn't just not an excuse, it's an impossibility. Even if you don't understand the order, you obey it. Even if you're a non-sentient golem or uncroaked unit, you obey it. Even if you're unaware of the order being given, you obey it. Even if you don't speak Language, you obey it. That's the way Erfworld works.


In Book 1 didn't Maggie say the Uncroaked would have a hard time understanding Parson's order of fighting retreat while cycling units? It managed to work, but only cause Maggie oversaw it with Thinkamancy powers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby jkosta » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:35 am

Sixty wrote:In Book 1 didn't Maggie say the Uncroaked would have a hard time understanding Parson's order of fighting retreat while cycling units? It managed to work, but only cause Maggie oversaw it with Thinkamancy powers.

It was never explicitly stated that she used Thinkamancy for that. Also, we don't technically know that they actually understood the orders. For all we know, she merely ordered them to fight for 5 minutes each then retreat to the end of the queue.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby onlyme » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:23 am

No one in particular wrote:That's not a very good example of a unit without leadership, though.

Archons, from what we've seen, all seem to be commanders.


Ahem, I think it was stated explicitely (and multiple times) that only some archons have leadership.
Shall I look for some of those quotes or do you remember?

Rob explained the mechanics in there: We already know unlead non-commanders have to autoengage
and the forum discussed how scouts work then. The answer is:
Book 2 - Text Update 056 wrote:Scouts don’t autoengage if they can hide, and she could hide really, really well.


So if Phebe was not a scout but a normal unlead non-commander unit she would autoengage (commands don't autoengage, by the way, they engage or not depending on their evaluation of the situation) but being a scout she must hide. The rules give her no choice.

No one in particular wrote:Phoebe there wasn't trying to justify why "no leadership means I shouldn't fight, even though I want to," she was trying to justify to herself that her cowardice was really Duty.


She does not justify "no leadership means ...", because that is a game mechanic.She has to justify the outcome of that rule (hiding there).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Goshen » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:03 am

The brain crown really is a fashion disaster. Almost makes Tram tragicomic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Cubbins » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:49 pm

Just try to think of it as particularly well-crushed satin.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby No one in particular » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:22 pm

onlyme wrote:Ahem, I think it was stated explicitely (and multiple times) that only some archons have leadership.
Shall I look for some of those quotes or do you remember?

I don't remember, so I'd appreciate some references, please.

I did a quick search on the wiki, and will keep looking, but so far I've only found First Intermission 46, where it says that only four archons had "dance fighting, leadership and Foolamancy abilities" (i.e. all three). It doesn't mention how many actually have leadership, or if any don't.

onlyme wrote:Rob explained the mechanics in there: We already know unlead non-commanders have to autoengage
and the forum discussed how scouts work then. The answer is:
Book 2 - Text Update 056 wrote:Scouts don’t autoengage if they can hide, and she could hide really, really well.

So if Phebe was not a scout but a normal unlead non-commander unit she would autoengage (commands don't autoengage, by the way, they engage or not depending on their evaluation of the situation) but being a scout she must hide. The rules give her no choice.

I never said she wasn't a scout. I was saying she wasn't a regular unlead unit because she felt conflicted about what she was doing (hiding). When we saw unlead Wrigley, he was totally into what he was supposed to be doing.

Maybe this is just because Wrigley, while unlead, was still part of a stack and Phoebe wasn't? Or he had a higher loyalty to Wanda, while Phoebe still had feelings for Charlie?

onlyme wrote:
No one in particular wrote:Phoebe there wasn't trying to justify why "no leadership means I shouldn't fight, even though I want to," she was trying to justify to herself that her cowardice was really Duty.

She does not justify "no leadership means ...", because that is a game mechanic. She has to justify the outcome of that rule (hiding there).

I was making the reverse argument, actually.
You're saying she wanted to fight but was forced to hide by the rule, and then tried to justify it.
I was saying she wanted to hide, and was using the rule to justify it.

She had move. She could attack. But she said to herself "Scouts don’t autoengage if they can hide, and [I can] hide really, really well." She made the call that she could hide, and thus didn't have to fight.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Oberon » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:23 pm

jkosta wrote:It was never explicitly stated that she used Thinkamancy for that [the fighting retreat]. Also, we don't technically know that they actually understood the orders. For all we know, she merely ordered them to fight for 5 minutes each then retreat to the end of the queue.
That would have been as useless as just ordering them to fight normally. If you order a simple time to retreat some units would die before falling back to be replaced by fresh units, and some fresh units would fall back before they needed to. Parson wanted injured units to fall back and be replaced by fresh units. Your 'timer' approach doesn't accomplish what he wanted, and Maggie is smart enough to know that. Besides:
Maggie wrote:I...think I have conveyed the orders. I can monitor and clarify as needed.
And then it never came up again. If she just couldn't get them to act as Parson intended, we should have heard about it.
No one in particular wrote:
onlyme wrote:Ahem, I think it was stated explicitely (and multiple times) that only some archons have leadership.
Shall I look for some of those quotes or do you remember?
I don't remember, so I'd appreciate some references, please.
I remember, but I'm not going to dig up a reference. It might have been when Parson visited the archons in their quarters and had a chat with them. The wiki also probably captured this info, but the wiki is pretty bad about referencing the source. Citation needed! :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby hajo » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:31 pm

Oberon wrote:I'm not going to dig up a reference.

The wiki is actually a nice place to look such things up.
And if it's bad, you can make it better 8-)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby SNfinity » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:42 pm

The update where we find out about Archons: http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png
The specific paragraph is this:

What was an Archon, really? A flying knight-class unit with a random special from the set of: dance fighting, leadership, and limited forms of Shockmancy, Thinkamancy, Dollamancy and Foolamancy. As Archons leveled, they could gain additional random specials from that set. There were four of them with the dance fighting, leadership and Foolamancy abilities at the Battle for Gobwin Knob, and these were able to lead the Coalition's dance fight. Charlescomm did not volunteer this strategy, but Ansom knew to ask.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby No one in particular » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:16 am

That's what I said I'd found, SNfinity. And like I pointed out, all it says is that:
First Intermission 46 wrote:There were four of them with the dance fighting, leadership and Foolamancy abilities at the Battle for Gobwin Knob…

It doesn't say how many of the remaining 24 that were there had leadership or not. They all could've had leadership, but not dancing and/or Foolamancy, or vice versa; lots of dancing fools, but no leaders.

I will say this though: rereading LIAB Text 56 again, it seems that if Phoebe has leadership, it's a very low. She's still more used to taking orders than giving them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Sieggy » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:16 am

Given that Phoebe could hide herself really, really well, I wonder if she survived? Remember, there's more to concealment than JUST foolamancy - slipping up under the eaves or into a crevice somewhere would provide her the cover she needed. Yes, Slately and the guys killed all the Archons they knew of, but unless someone was in charge of keeping a count, it would be easy for one to escape notice. And I don't think even Charlie could keep track in all the confusion. (I wonder where the Don's bat is at the moment? Hope it didn't get caught by a stray blast . . .)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Oberon » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:17 pm

Sieggy wrote:Given that Phoebe could hide herself really, really well, I wonder if she survived? Remember, there's more to concealment than JUST foolamancy - slipping up under the eaves or into a crevice somewhere would provide her the cover she needed.
There may be more to concealment than just foolamancy, but Phoebe used foolamancy to disguise herself as a chimney. And Slately was wearing a magic crown which gave him the ability to see through foolamancy. Aaaaand, panel 8 of this strip shows Slately leading a stack or three directly towards Phoebe, immediately after telling Ace that the remaining archons were veiled but that he could spot them.

So I think it's safe to conclude that Phoebe was croaked. Or perhaps captured, if there were captured archons we just didn't see.
hajo wrote:
Oberon wrote:I'm not going to dig up a reference.

The wiki is actually a nice place to look such things up.
And if it's bad, you can make it better 8-)
If it was even at an 80% level, I'd be happy to contribute. But it's so far below that that I don't see much point in putting a lot of effort into a half-assed tool.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby No one in particular » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:49 pm

Oberon wrote:
hajo wrote:The wiki is actually a nice place to look such things up.
And if it's bad, you can make it better 8-)
If it was even at an 80% level, I'd be happy to contribute. But it's so far below that that I don't see much point in putting a lot of effort into a half-assed tool.
*twitches*

Hey, guess what? Right now, there's only about 5 or 6 people regularly contributing to the wiki. So if even a couple more people wanted to chip in, maybe add some links, make some pages, it wouldn't be half-assed anymore!

For instance, if someone wanted to just describe the action in the individual panels for, oh, the last 40 pages things would be much better.

I'd do it, but I'm terrible at descriptions and usually transcribing all the dialogue and blocking out the panels.

Or hell! If you don't want to do that, go back and add notes for all the one-shot jokes and references! Most of it's already been explained here on the forums, right? "Who's that archon supposed to be? What's that sound effect mean? Those magic words mean something, right?"

If that's still too much, you can still help by going around and tagging the pages that are out of date, need references, or just need improvement. Seriously. Even just saying "This, SPECIFICALLY, needs work" would help.

The wiki is a communal project. The more people who work on it, the less effort is needed from them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 93

Postby Oberon » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:14 pm

No one in particular wrote:Hey, guess what? Right now, there's only about 5 or 6 people regularly contributing to the wiki.
Maybe that should tell you something? As in, the vast majority of the readership isn't interested in the minutia that a small handful are interested in?

I play a few online games with far smaller numbers of participants which have vastly better wikis. Sorry if I kicked your dog and called your baby ugly, but if only 5 or 6 people care, that's probably not enough to warrant even having a wiki.
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