New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:34 pm

I'm sorry to sound confrontational here, but Marbit you are putting forth a double standard. You have always been opposed to changing the rules during an engagement, yet that is exactly what you want to do here. By your own admission, as it is written now Veil CAN do what Nemo wants to do. You can "coulda woulda shoulda" all day, but that's irrelevant. Nemo was about to do something that is 100% legal as the spell is written, and you acknowledge that. So I'll leave it to you to decide if you want to start breaking your own rule to punish a player's creativity.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:53 pm

0beron wrote:I'm sorry to sound confrontational here, but Marbit you are putting forth a double standard. You have always been opposed to changing the rules during an engagement, yet that is exactly what you want to do here. By your own admission, as it is written now Veil CAN do what Nemo wants to do. You can "coulda woulda shoulda" all day, but that's irrelevant. Nemo was about to do something that is 100% legal as the spell is written, and you acknowledge that. So I'll leave it to you to decide if you want to start breaking your own rule to punish a player's creativity.
Don't worry about sounding confrontational. I love to argue, and this is all just a game after all, so it's unlikely that you're ever going to offend me.

By my own admission, Veil was written too vaguely do define exactly what it does. It's not a generic illusion spell, it's a disguise spell. I've avoided changing the rules, but I haven't refrained from issuing rules clarifications during play. The game mechanics of foolamancy is clearly not sufficiently explicit yet. The spell does not include any reference to the health status of units. The spell doesn't state whether you could be a fully-healed unit appearing as a wounded one, for example. How does the spell behave if the unit is made up to look like a unit that's much more tough than the real unit actually is? Does the spell hide the wounds? What if the unit is much tougher than the disguise? Does it create fake wounds? The current rule set doesn't address that. Since it doesn't state whether the spell can make the unit look more or less wounded than it is, a rules clarification is required. I'm issuing a clarification stating that it can't. I'm also stating that the spell's description needs to be rewritten, and I'll consider whether to include that option explicitly at that time. I'll also consider including additional spells to give the Foolamancer all of the tools he needs to be an effective unit. This is why we play-test these things, after all.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:01 pm

MarbitChow wrote:We're all in agreement that Foolamancy should have the ability to mimic other spells.

No, I do not think that. I am not trying to directly mimic the effect of any other spell, here. Nor do I have any wish nor intent to do so: I only wish to mask a unit's true nature and stats, as a Foolamancer should be able to.

I am veiling Whump as different unit. That unit just happens to look like an unwounded Whump. I am not saying "a heal spell has been cast", only "this unit is no longer wounded".

You yourself said that an effective veil needs to be believable. Is not suddenly becoming unwounded a believable thing? When there is potentially a healomancer out of line of sight?


I must now ask, why must you exclude such "lateral thinking" applications for the Veil? You're the GM, you get to decide the rules. Now why must you automatically bar creativeness? Think of it, and ask yourself, "is this really a bad thing?".

First, does it fit within the spirit of the spell. For a Hiya, the spirit of the spell is wanton destruction. Does blasting a weapon out of an opponent's hand accomplish this? No; in fact it preserves, even. For Veil, the spirit of the spell is to deceive; to make a unit look as it is not. Does veiling to hide wounds accomplish this? Yes, on both counts. So why limit the spirit to the intent instead of expanding the intent to match the spirit?

And secondly, would allowing or disallowing this break the game balance? Allowing Hiyas to disarm definitely would, as Hiya is more than powerful enough as it is. But Veiling wounds does not break game balance. It has markedly less effect than many other level 1, 1 juice spells. An actual heal, for the same cost and at the same level, could produce a much more powerful and lasting effect than a veil which will go away the next time Whump attacks. Where veiling Whump's wounds might allow him to get out of the fight safely, a true heal would let him keep fighting. So it's definitely not overpowered. On the contrary, limiting veils so as to not disguise wounds would make them severely underpowered. Veil is a spell one has to be clever with in order to get the full effect out of it. So if you won't let us be clever, how are we ever going to get a use out of it?


Seriously, Marbit. I don't want to offend you, but I have to agree with 0beron here. If you refuse to allow for some lateral thinking where it is warranted, you're just being obstinate.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:15 pm

MarbitChow wrote:It's not a generic illusion spell, it's a disguise spell.

I am disguising his wounds, am I not? That's all I am doing, no more, no less.


MarbitChow wrote:I'll also consider including additional spells to give the Foolamancer all of the tools he needs to be an effective unit. This is why we play-test these things, after all.

I think that if you do that, Marbit, you'll be making Foolamancers way underpowered. Look at any spellcaster type: each of them has all that they need to be effective from level 1. Shockamancers can blast stuff effectively, Healomancers can heal stuff effectively, Luckmancers can tilt rolls effectively, etc. If a level 1 Foolamancer can't hide stuff effectively, then a Foolamancer's level 1 loadout needs an upgrade. And veil as you've now restricted it is ineffective.

I've had this tactic in mind since before the playtest began. It's pretty much the only reason I didn't call for a full overhaul of the Foolamancy system before we started... Because without it, veil is practically useless on a tactical level. But I was fine with it, because I figured it was ok for a level one spell to be a bit limited, since it isn't completely useless. If I had known you had such an inflexible opinion of what veil's capabilities are, I wouldn't have stayed silent.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:34 pm

Nnelg wrote:No, I do not think that. I am not trying to directly mimic the effect of any other spell, here. Nor do I have any wish nor intent to do so: I only wish to mask a unit's true nature and stats, as a Foolamancer should be able to.
Again, lack of clarity seems to be plaguing me. By mimic, I mean "make it appear as if the spell has been cast", not to actually duplicate the effects of the spell.

When I envision spells being cast, I envision 'special effects' as they occur. When veils drop, the comic portrays them as a transition. We haven't seen illusions being cast yet (mostly for the sake of keeping things dramatic), but I would imagine a similar process in reverse. There are glowing borders arcing over bodies as the Trixon spell is being cast, as well as when units are decrypted. In order to fool people into believing that a unit is healed, it's not enough for the wounds to be there one moment, and gone the next. There has to be that healing "special effect" that indicates that magic has occurred.

All of these things could be imitated by Foolamancy. But the ability to do so is not stated anywhere in the Veil spell description, and so the spell cannot be used in that manner.

Nnelg wrote:Seriously, Marbit. I don't want to offend you, but I have to agree with 0beron here. If you refuse to allow for some lateral thinking where it is warranted, you're just being obstinate.
We are already agreeing on most of the major issues involved in this discussion, in principal. The Foolamancy school should have spells that allow the caster to make it appear as if a spell has been cast. You're arguing that the Veil spell can be stretched somewhat to include such an effect. I'm stating that another spell will need to be defined to include such an effect.

Please feel free to discuss how Foolamancy *should* behave in the updated rules. Please also post suggestions for everything you wish to see Foolamancy be able to do. Foolamancy has only seen a little bit of use, and already a number of issues are arising around it; it's clear that at least some revisions, enhancements, and clarifications are in order. But bear in mind that all of these discussions will impact how Foolamancy *will be*. It will not alter what it *is at present*.

I'm not sure how I can make things any clearer. I have already issued the final decision regarding the current scenario. If you continue to attempt to lobby simply for the ability to fake a heal spell *right now*, you will not make any progress.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:11 pm

MarbitChow wrote:When I envision spells being cast, I envision 'special effects' as they occur.

[...]

All of these things could be imitated by Foolamancy. But the ability to do so is not stated anywhere in the Veil spell description, and so the spell cannot be used in that manner.

I don't intend to imitate the precise "special effect" that a true Healomancy spell produces. I'm just hoping the Marbits can't tell the difference. :lol:

(Actually, that's the sort of thing I interpret as being part of the leadership check to break the illusion... Little details like that, the fact Whump would still be limping, etc. are what usually tip characters off to illusions in stories, or at least the ones I read. But that's a discussion for another time...)

Hm... Anyways, this still doesn't explain why I can't have a wounded unit veiled. It'd just be like when Whump veiled as Coil ran alone into the hex... The veil still existed, even if it wasn't "believable".



MarbitChow wrote:We are already agreeing on most of the major issues involved in this discussion, in principal. The Foolamancy school should have spells that allow the caster to make it appear as if a spell has been cast. You're arguing that the Veil spell can be stretched somewhat to include such an effect. I'm stating that another spell will need to be defined to include such an effect.

I think you don't understand what I'm doing here. I'm not mimicing the appearance of a spell. Nor do I have any desire whatsoever to do so. All I am doing is changing Whump's appearance from wounded to unwounded. If the marbits see that and don't accept it without question, (which would be fine with me) they'll have to come up with a reason for the sudden change. The fact that "a heal has been cast" is a valid explanation has nothing to do with the Veil spell, no more than the fact "a polymorph has been cast" is also a valid explanation for a Veil as you see it does.



MarbitChow wrote:But bear in mind that all of these discussions will impact how Foolamancy *will be*. It will not alter what it *is at present*.

I understand why you need to stick to the definition of something as-is, and not change it during a game. But, as 0beron pointed out, you're kinda being hypocritical here. The original definition of the rule would allow for what I want to do. (Not mimic a spell, just change a unit's appearance.) You're saying you need to stick with the definition immediately after you've changed it.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby tigerusthegreat » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:37 pm

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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby ETheBoyce » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:13 pm

It's a level 1 unit trying to change a unit's appearance mid-battle within the sight of 4 enemy units, the lack of success is not surprising at all in my view, especialy given how the Signamancy of Foolamancy seems to differ from Healamancy
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:32 pm

ETheBoyce wrote:It's a level 1 unit trying to change a unit's appearance mid-battle within the sight of 4 enemy units, the lack of success is not surprising at all in my view, especialy given how the Signamancy of Foolamancy seems to differ from Healamancy

If I can't change a unit's appearance in-battle, what's the point of it all? And I doubt that a zed marbit jailer would be able to tell the signamancy apart.

Even if they could, that shouldn't stop the spell from going off anyways. Any new units that arrive will be fooled, at least.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby ETheBoyce » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:47 pm

What's the point of it!? Have you not been reading the comic? Hiding units off turn, making units invisible, making units seem like completely different units; there's plenty you can do!
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:55 pm

But if I can't apply lateral thinking to make the tools I have meet the specific needs of the tactical situation, what's the point? 90% of my usefulness is gone, right there.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby ETheBoyce » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:11 pm

Lateral thinking can be useful, but it is not needed to be useful by any means. The T. Coil Shuffle, for instance, was a useful bit of rule wiggling but was not ultimately necessary to win the current battle. Is it possible that Foolamancy is underpowered? Certainly, but that will then there will be changes to it; the biggest one would to me be allowing Foolamancy to last through attacks, especially invisibility given that it's canon that it lasts through it <_<. But I'm not the one making the rules :-p
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:25 pm

That is certainly something that I'll be asking for after the playtest. But not during, since it was explicitly stated going in that attacking breaks foolamancy.

But, the biggest reason I was fine was that was my "veiling wounds" idea. It fits completely within the description of Veil as it was going in though, so well in fact that I didn't even think of the possibility that it might be considered an edge case. In fact, the only reason I haven't stopped arguing for it already is that I still don't understand how Veil can not be able to affect the visible hits stat as it must every other stat short of a specific exception for hits, which certainly did not exist in the definition going in.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:53 pm

Illusions will not last through a unit making an attack or casting a spell. There are several instances of illusions dropping during the act of each (Bogroll attacking Ansom, Jack healing Wanda).

Nnelg, your confusion stems from the fact that there are actually 2 distinct "Hits" stats. One is the maximum Hits a unit has. Maximum Hits, Combat, Defense, and Maximum Move are stats that are fixed during combat. These are the stats that foolamancy masks. Current Hits, which change every time the unit is wounded or healed, is a different stat, and one that Veil does not affect.

If you are still unable to understand how Veil doesn't mask wounds, there is one final argument to be made in favor of the way I'm interpreting it:

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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:22 pm

Actually, I've understood that whatever goes on here won't effect what's happening in the game for a while now. It isn't all that important anyways.


But I'm not willing to drop the subject. I see this as an issue of vital importance, because it concerns what I thought were the very foundations upon which Foolamancy was built.

So, essentially what I'm saying is that Veils should be able to affect the visible hits remaining stat too. It is just another stat, after all. I see no reason for veil not to be able to affect it's appearance other than a specific exception, and I see no reason why a specific exception for hits remaining should exist.


(By the way, I was also going to ask for a higher-level, higher juice cost "Greater Veil" spell later that would be able to stick on during combat. I understand why you might not want that power in a first-level spell, though.)
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:34 pm

Then you can relax. Foolamancy WILL be able to fake wounds, and all other status effects. The first level Veil spell won't, though.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:05 am

But why not? I don't care for any other spell or status effect, because I agree with you that they aren't in Veil's spell description. I think you're making a very artificial and arbitrary distinction, and one that makes veil the most useless of all the level one spells. At the very least, it needs to be included for game balance issues.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby ETheBoyce » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:36 am

The veil still won't be useless as veiling will still provide initial protection to our important units, imagine if we were unable to tell which of the Elf infantry were leadership units until they had hacked our towers to bits! Also while I can understand veils not lasting through attacks we have confirmation that invisibility does last through taking offensive action: the capture of Ossomer!
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:19 am

That's not enough, I think. Any other 1st level spell is helpful in a wide variety of situations. If initial veiling is all I can do with Veil, (and I can't even disguise vulnerable wounded units) then that's not enough to put it on par with the other schools.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby ETheBoyce » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:37 am

Actually most 1st level spells are really only useful for one purpose and has only one way of working (Note: I'm using the rules listed on the initial post): Hiya does damage, Revitalize heals, Roll The Bones increases the damage of one attack, Space Out removes 1/2 enemy actions, Reanimator creates a 1AP warrior, Craft Cloak negates 1 basic attack/shockamancy. Veil has a greater number of ways it can be used, I talked about hiding important units as unimportant ones, but the opposite is also a possibility; make low level/weak units appear as high level units to draw the fire of strong enemies, and it is this mechanism that lets you disguise vulnerable wounded units make them appear to be units with much higher defense!

Edit: Honestly Foolamancy actually seems more useful that Dollamancy in combat situations at first level
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