New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Exate » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:25 pm

0beron wrote:I think Generalist doesn't make sense that way. I would suggest it actually be a 0AP cost, but require that you have purchased the intro spells in 3 other schools. Or at least make it cost 1 AP and require you to have taken 2 other schools. Then it represents the fact that the caster has spent their career exploring other magics, and just had an epiphany that allows them to understand the rest.
That works. Comes out to basically the same thing with better flavor for it.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:47 pm

I've reworded Marbit's post for clarity, and added a few spells/changed names to match my original classification of in-comic Foolamancy categories

Effects : (all spells require Projection)
Projection - Create semi-transparent glowing image of whatever the caster desires
Glamour - Change apparent unit Type [Warrior, Spearman, Archer, Flier, Caster], Level, Combat, Defense, Max Hits, Max Move, Side, Attack Modifiers, and Additional Abilities of any humanoid unit.
Chimera [Requires Glamour] - Add or Remove [Uncroaked, Construct, Beast, Inhuman]
Facade - Target adopts the appearance of an object or structure, with the appropriate apparent stats as necessary.
Displacement - Create a replica of the target in a different square (determined by the caster) that remains stationary and performs idle motions. Attacking or Casting does not end the Displacement.
Crypsis - Hide the target completely from view (grants a dodge bonus based on Caster's level, even if target is not dodging; cannot be targeted by RLOS spells).
Phantasm - Create an illusionary unit (single-square, 2x2, or 3x3 in size) with 0 Combat / 0 Defense / 0 Hits / 0 Move that can be targeted by other effects
Psychosomia - Change apparent unit Status [Calmed, Stunned, Incapacitated, Immobilized, Dodging, Delayed-Move, Delayed-Action, Current Hits]
Flash - Creates an effect that distracts enemy units so they are unable to make Spot checks in the hex where the Flash occurs.
Baffle - Disguises the target, making them harder to attack. RLOS attacks against the target suffer a critical fumble on 6 or below. AOE effects hit the target unhindered.

Modifiers :
Multiplicity - Projections, Phantasms and Displacements can create 1 additional instance per Caster Level (can be purchased multiple times)
Target Stack - Caster can apply the spell to all units in a single Stack or Horde
Target Hex [Requires Veil, Target Stack, Level 4] - Caster can apply the spell to an entire Hex
Persistence - Allows the illusion to last through being damaged
Aggression [Requires Persistence] - Allows the illusion to continue after the unit attacks or casts
Longevity - Allows the illusion to persist through multiple Turns
Animation [Requires Psychosomia] - Allows the illusion to react to the environment (wounds appear, status effects are applied, etc.)
Signamancy - Adds appropriate signamancy component to explain illusion (such as a spell being cast, a trap door opening to reveal units, etc.)


What's your opinion Marbit?
Last edited by 0beron on Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:21 pm

0beron, here are my first impressions on your changes:

I'd actually like to use Veil as a generic term for "Have Foolamancy Cast Upon", rather than a specific effect name. Facade is a fake building front, so I figured it's more appropriate for structures. I'd like to have the Foolamancer include the Structural Points of all illusionary structures. If the SP differ from 'standard', that indicates the illusion either looks fortified or dilapidated.

The requirement of having Projection was in place for all other spells primarily due to out-of-school purchasing rules; it prevents casters from skipping over it if they cross-class into Foolamancy.

Flash isn't going to work as written - if you negate spot checks, Foolamancy becomes uncounterable. I see what you're trying to do there, but I'm not really convinced that Foolamancy really requires a way to distract from castings while enemy units are in RLOS - that's a fundamental limitation of the school in my mind, which forces the Foolamancer to make more use of the environment instead of just doing exactly what they want to do every time.

Baffle behaves more like a debuff, which I'd prefer to leave in the Luckamancy school.

Some clarifications are also in order:

Aggression [Requires Persistence] - Allows the illusion to continue after the unit attacks or casts; Spell persists for 1 round / 2 caster levels after unit attacks.
Longevity - Allows the illusion to persist through multiple Turns (but spell is still subject to dispel upon Attack / Cast restrictions unless otherwise addressed)
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:30 pm

I'm sorry, but I'm going to be busy the rest of tonight and perhaps tomorrow. So, I haven't had a chance to look at any specifics yet. I'll do so as soon as I can.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:37 pm

I left the Projection requirement in place, I just put it once at the top because it's annoyingly repetitive and cluttering to put it in every spell.

Okay fair point the the Facade naming idea. As for the SP, I didn't really eliminate them, just said that they will have apparent stats that match the form. So if they're hidden as a building, they get SP that matches how they now look, and if they're just an ordinary object (like a tree) then they have whatever stats or lack of stats a tree should have.

I see your point on Flash, although it does exist in the comic so we should try and find some way to make it work. Perhaps it makes the spot check harder to make? Or prevents them from making a spot check until the next combat turn?

And same thing with Baffle. We know Jack did it, so we should make it work. Maybe the 6 is a bit steep, and we make it a 4 instead? And in any event, it's inferior to Luckamancy because it can be countered by AOE.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:14 pm

0beron wrote:I see your point on Flash, although it does exist in the comic so we should try and find some way to make it work. Perhaps it makes the spot check harder to make? Or prevents them from making a spot check until the next combat turn?
And same thing with Baffle. We know Jack did it, so we should make it work. Maybe the 6 is a bit steep, and we make it a 4 instead? And in any event, it's inferior to Luckamancy because it can be countered by AOE.
Since I'll need to rework what a spot check means, I'm not sure it makes sense to even consider trying to adjust it just yet.

As for Baffle, now that I've reviewed the Foghat comic entry, we might be able to kill two birds with one stone. Implement a Baffle spell AND allow a spell that can be used to allow illusions to be cast in the middle of combat in full view of the enemy (sort of).

Obfuscation - Obscures square containing target, preventing RLOS into or out of the designated area. Effect is unique to each caster. Common effects include mist, fog, smoke, ash, black tendrils, etc.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:31 pm

Excellent, I like that.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:40 pm

Foolamancy Revision - Final Draft, v1.0

Add the cost of each effect in the spell to get the base cost. Applying a modifier to the spell multiplies the casting cost of the base spell as indicated.
If multiple modifiers are applied, add all of the modifier costs together, then multiply the base spell cost by that value.
In the event of a fractional value, round up to the next whole value.

Spot Checks : Any caster or unit with Leadership can recognize a Foolamancy spell upon first viewing it by rolling 2d6 + 3 * Unit's Level and exceeding the Caster's base (real) Defense. This roll is subject to Criticals, as well as Boosts / Curses in effect on both the Caster and the viewer at the moment the Veil is seen.

Bonus: Caster who specializes in Foolamancy starts with Projection and gains an additional 1.5 AP which must be spent on Foolamancy Effects and Modifiers.

Unless otherwise noted, all Effects and Modifiers cost 0.5 AP.

Effects :
    Projection - Create semi-transparent glowing image of whatever the caster desires. Projection is a prerequisite for all Effects and Modifiers. (0 Juice)
    Glamour - Change apparent unit Type [Warrior, Spearman, Archer, Flier, Caster], Level, Combat, Defense, Max Hits, Max Move, Side, Attack Modifiers, and Additional Abilities of any humanoid unit. ** (1 Juice)
    Chimera [Requires Glamour] - Add or Remove [Uncroaked, Construct, Beast, Inhuman] (1 Juice)
    Facade - Target adopts the appearance of an object or structure, with the appropriate apparent stats as necessary. (2 Juice)
    Displacement - Create a replica of the target in a different square (determined by the caster) that remains stationary and performs idle motions. Attacking or Casting does not end the Displacement. (3 Juice)
    Crypsis [Requires Glamour] (1 AP) - Hide the target completely from view (grants a dodge bonus based on Caster's level, even if target is not dodging; cannot be targeted by RLOS spells). (5 Juice)
    Phantasm [Requires Glamour] - Create an illusionary unit (single-square, 2x2, or 3x3 in size) with 0 Combat / 0 Defense / 0 Hits / 2/Caster Level Move that can be targeted by other effects. When combined with Aggression, unit can inflicts Fatigue damage (4 Juice)
    Psychosomia - Change apparent unit Status [Calmed, Stunned, Incapacitated, Immobilized, Dodging, Delayed-Move, Delayed-Action, Current Hits] (1 Juice)
    Obfuscation - Obscures square containing target, preventing RLOS into or out of the designated area. Effect is unique to each caster. Common effects include mist, fog, smoke, ash, black tendrils, etc. (1 Juice)
Modifiers :
    Multiplicity - Projections, Phantasms and Displacements can create 1 additional instance per Caster Level (can be purchased multiple times) (x1/instance)
    Subtlety - Caster gains +6 Defense for Spot Checks vs. their Foolamancy (can be purchased multiple times). (Does not modify base spell cost)
    Target Stack - Caster can apply the spell to any units in a single Stack (or Horde, if targets are Uncroaked or Phantasms with Uncroaked added via Chimera) (x1/target)
    Target Hex (1 AP) [Requires Facade, Obfuscation, Target Stack] - Caster can apply the spell to an entire Hex (x20)
    Persistence - Allows the illusion to last through being damaged (x1.5)
    Aggression [Requires Persistence] (1 AP) - Allows the illusion to continue after the unit attacks or casts. Lasts for a number of attacks equal to the Caster's Level. (x4)
    Longevity - Allows the illusion to persist through multiple Turns (* Special)
    Animation [Requires Psychosomia] - Allows the illusion to react to the environment (wounds appear, status effects are applied, etc.) (x2)
    Exclusivity [Requires Subtlety] (1 AP) - All of the effects of the spell are only perceived by one unit, selected at the time of casting. (*** Special)

* Longevity: The cost to apply Longevity to a spell is the full cost of the base spell plus all modifiers, multiplied by the number of turns the spell will persist, PLUS an additional 5 Juice per turn that the spell will persist. Costs for Longevity spells can be paid for over multiple turns.
** Glamour: Illusionary Combat and Defense values cannot appear greater than the max of Caster Level * 3 or the target's own Combat/Defense. Maxiumum Hits cannot appear greater than Caster Level * 8 or target's own Hits.
Max Move must be less than target's own Move.
*** The cost to apply Exclusivity to a spell is the 1/3rd full cost of the base spell plus all modifiers (including Longevity), rounded up.

Examples:
Simple Veil: Glamour + Target Stack - (1 Juice/Target)
    Changes target(s) appearance to appear as another unit. Lasts until the unit casts, attacks or is attacked, or the end of the Turn
Simple Invisibility : Crypsis + Target Stack (5 Juice/Target)
    Renders targets invisible. Lasts until the unit casts, attacks or is attacked, or the end of the Turn
I'm A Tree : Facade (2 Juice)
    Makes target appear as a Tree with 5 Structural Points.
Improved Invisibility : Crypsis (5) + (Persistence (x2) + Aggression (x4) + Target Stack (x/Target) = 30 Juice + 5 Juice / Target
    Renders all units in a stack invisible, and allows them to continue attacking while unseen.
Veil City : Facade (2) + Target Hex (x20) + Longevity (*) = 45 Juice / Turn
    Completely alters the appearance of the target hex, making it appear as a forest, lake, hill, etc. for a number of turns.
Undead Fog Warriors: Obfuscation (1) + Phantasm (4) + Glamour (1) + Chimera (1) * (Multiplicity (x1/Target) + Persistence (x1.5) + Animation (x2) + Aggression (x4)) = 53 Juice + 7 / Warrior, max 24 Warriors (Horde)
    Creates a fog-filled area with spectral attackers in each square. Each specter's combat and defense is 3 * Caster's Level, and deals Fatigue damage if it hits.
Phantom Assassins: Phantasm (4) + Glamour (1) * (Multiplicity (x1/Target) + Persistence (x1.5) + Animation (x2) + Aggression (x4) + Exclusivity (***)) = 12 Juice + 2 / Warrior, max 8 Warriors
    Surrounds the target with illusionary assassins that only he can perceive, and which can be used to subdue the target.

(Edit 1: Added Exclusivity modifier and Phantom Assassins example)
Last edited by MarbitChow on Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:47 pm

Now that Luckamancy, Foolamancy, Healamancy, and Dollamancy have been revised, all that remains is Flower Power (which, based on the new updates, is significantly more powerful than presented here). I think Croakamancy needs a couple of additional tweaks (removing Bone Horror, add spells or modifiers that allow more Uncroaked to be created at once), and I also wan to review Shockamancy (I think the damage-dealing of Shockamancy is about right, but the school may need to be a bit more flexible; other schools have much more diversity than Shockamancy currently).

Please feel free to post your thoughts and opinions here.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby ETheBoyce » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:06 pm

I agree with Shockamancy lacking the flexibility of other trees, though I'm already burning through my AP as it is <_<
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Exate » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:12 pm

Foolamancy currently lacks a way to target terrain features on less than a hex-wide scale, I think. Wanting to, say, make it look like a gate is open when it's closed, make a city with towers appear to have none, hide rubble or traps, or make it appear that trees are units (as opposed to units being trees, which is well supported). If there's an ability combination that would allow this, please point it out to me.

Also, I can't help but think that the rules are incomplete until they include a way to replicate the odious distraction beast- or in pulling that most impressive of tricks from Jack in Book 1, where he turned around Stanley's dwagon so that they were heading in a completely opposite direction without Stanley realizing it- possibly more, I can't really recall the details. It was quite impressive, though, and was an apt display of the fact that Foolamancy can fool the senses not only by means of physical illusions, but also by manipulation of others' perceptions of the world and mental state. Further, Jack's display of illusion in one of the prequel updates with Jillian returning to Faq was a clear display of Foolamancy's ability to create illusions only in the mind of one person- he had an elaborate display for Jillian's eyes and ears only.

It might be possible to do a cheap replication of those abilities by giving a "mental only" modifier and have the Foolamancer target one or more units he wishes to deceive directly.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:19 pm

We need to determine how damaging Phantasms are created stat-wise. They deal fatigue damage, but what are their Com and Def scores?
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:41 pm

Honestly, I'm not worried about about duplicating every minor facet of the Comic - we already don't bother with stack bonuses; trying to implement the Distraction Beast would just be a... well, distraction. That's mostly a role-playing thing rather than a tactical combat thing, so I'm comfortable allowing it to occur without being well-defined in the rules, much like Coil's attempts at turnamancy.

If we modify Facade so that it can target Units OR existing structures, we're good there.

And yeah, we do need to add a modifier to allow a spell to only affect a single target, which should dramatically decrease the casting cost; I'm thinking 1/3rd rounded up seems about right.

Jack's Dwagon swap, I think, is covered by the following:

Crypsis (to hide the original units) + Phantasm (to create copies of the dwagon) + Glamour (to mask them as bats once Crypsis drops, and to add stats to the phantasm dwagon) + Persistence + Target Stack (so veils can be applied to Jack, Stanley, the Dwagon, and the illusionary Dwagon).

Of course, that doesn't explain why Jack went with Fake Bats instead of just staying invisible; perhaps invisibility is easier to spot than other veils?


0beron wrote:We need to determine how damaging Phantasms are created stat-wise. They deal fatigue damage, but what are their Com and Def scores?


Already covered:

** Glamour: Illusionary Combat and Defense values cannot appear greater than the max of Caster Level * 3 or the target's own Combat/Defense. Maxiumum Hits cannot appear greater than Caster Level * 8 or target's own Hits.
Max Move must be less than target's own Move.

Since phantasms have a base 0 combat / defense, their max stats are caster level * 3.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Lord of Monies » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:43 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Of course, that doesn't explain why Jack went with Fake Bats instead of just staying invisible; perhaps invisibility is easier to spot than other veils?


That could just be a mind-games thing. He's a foolamancer, everyone would be expecting to look for something invisible. So by being something visible, they were potentially not what everyone would be looking for. It just so happened that Jillian saw the bats and thought to check. Nobody would have thought otherwise.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:45 pm

So in other words casting a Phantasm always requires you to Glamour it as well?
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:50 pm

Lord of Monies wrote:That could just be a mind-games thing. He's a foolamancer, everyone would be expecting to look for something invisible. So by being something visible, they were potentially not what everyone would be looking for. It just so happened that Jillian saw the bats and thought to check, otherwise nobody would have thought otherwise.
Ok, yeah, that seems like a perfectly plausible explanation. So, the real question on my mind is: how do you abuse Foolamancy? The more flexible a rule set is, the more prone to abuse. Although, since none of the changes are real, the worst thing that Foolamancy can do on its own seems to be near-certain capture using the Subdue rules. I think I'm okay with that.

0beron wrote:So in other words casting a Phantasm always requires you to Glamour it as well?
If you want something with better than 0 Combat, yeah. It seemed like the most elegant way to introduce a completely created illusionary template around which all the other abilities and modifiers can be applied, rather than trying to create custom rules for "illusionary units" vs. "veiled units" and giving as much flexibility as possible. Of course, even with a 0 Combat, it can still do a small amount of damage to a weak attacker, you could reduce the casting cost a bit by using the base stats, but I'm not sure I see much value in that.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:54 pm

Ok makes sense. I'm trying to think of a way to word it so this is more apparent, because on the first read-through I though there was nothing stating the stats a Phantasm had....ill get back to you if I come up with something.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby Nnelg » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:54 pm

Ok Marbit, I like where you've gone with this. There are a bunch of little things that I'd like to have some imput on, though; so I hope this isn't the "Final" Final Draft...


So, here's some things that jump out at me:

I think the prices need some tweaking across the board (mostly downwards). I'm fine with those "super" illusions costing a ton, but I'm worried that I won't be able to do cheaper ones as often.

Could we add a modifier that decreases the duration of effect to say, two or three rounds, with a fractional juice multiplier?

Also, I would request a "mind blink" modifier that would make observers not notice the sudden transition when the spell is cast.

I don't feel the way you handled agression with phantasms is much in the spirit of Foolamancy... Seeing as how that fatigue damage becomes real the second any real damage hits it. I'm fine with illusions being able to do some 'soft' damage, just not to that extent.


MarbitChow wrote:trying to implement the Distraction Beast would just be a... well, distraction.

Well, there's still that shock value of a Bone Dragon suddenly appearing in your face, even if you realize it's a fake within seconds. I know I'd like to do stuff that; disrupting enemy the enemy just the slightest amount, but at the most important moment.

What if we applied a singular "distraction" spell, targeting an enemy unit or stack. There'd probably be some roll involved, and if successful the target will delay instead of doing whatever it was going to do that phase (and/or the next).
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:57 pm

Nnelg wrote:I hope this isn't the "Final" Final Draft...
Nope. Still needs work; that's why it's in this discussion thread. :D None of the new rules are 'finally final' yet, until they're applied to the entire campaign world.

Nnelg wrote:I think the prices need some tweaking across the board (mostly downwards). I'm fine with those "super" illusions costing a ton, but I'm worried that I won't be able to do cheaper ones as often.
We only see Jack perform one or two major illusions in a turn, but yeah, you might be right, especially since you'd need to buff your Defense as you level, so you can't just dump everything into Juice.

Nnelg wrote:Could we add a modifier that decreases the duration of effect to say, two or three rounds, with a fractional juice multiplier?
Perhaps. We might even open up a new category - Restrictions - with that and Exclusivity being placed there.

Nnelg wrote:Also, I would request a "mind blink" modifier that would make observers not notice the sudden transition when the spell is cast.
One additional special I've been considering adding to Foolamancers is that no one notices when they cast a spell - they look like they're delaying their action instead. But I don't like "mind blink" since there's no good way to codify it. Give me some examples as to how you'd want to use such a thing; this will help me picture its implementation and decide what to do with it.

Back to our "the unit looks healed" example, you could use Psychosomia to make it appear as if you're casting a spell, and they become healed. You could also sync with a healamancer, and make it appear as if she healed many more targets than she actually did. But you couldn't just have the wounds vanish, and use a "mind blink" make them forget that the units were originally wounded.

And the reason for this is that it won't fool PCs. The PCs won't forget that the wounds were there, and will either assume that it's an illusion or that it's an error by the GM and demand that it be corrected.

Nnelg wrote:I don't feel the way you handled agression with phantasms is much in the spirit of Foolamancy... Seeing as how that fatigue damage becomes real the second any real damage hits it. I'm fine with illusions being able to do some 'soft' damage, just not to that extent.
Ok, so Fatigue won't work. Let's just call it Illusionary damage, and unlike Fatigue damage, it just vanishes if real damage occurs. Therefore, you could combine Subdue and Illusion to try to knock someone out quickly, but one wrong hit injures them badly and shakes them out of believing the illusionary wounds.

Nnelg wrote:Well, there's still that shock value of a Bone Dragon suddenly appearing in your face, even if you realize it's a fake within seconds. I know I'd like to do stuff that; disrupting enemy the enemy just the slightest amount, but at the most important moment.
What if we applied a singular "distraction" spell, targeting an enemy unit or stack. There'd probably be some roll involved, and if successful the target will delay instead of doing whatever it was going to do that phase (and/or the next).

From a mechanics perspective, we could modify Psychosomia so that illusionary status effects on an enemy only last for a single phase, which would allow you to briefly stun one or more targets for a very short time. This would at least provide a mechanism that's consistent with existing rules.
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Re: New Erfworld Campaign - "Darkness Rising" - Rules

Postby CroverusRaven » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:38 am

Two things:

What caster would you guys be interested in seeing in game next?
AND
Marbit, how would you handle a player that wants to try out a different PC and put their current PC in the background for a while?
CroverusRaven
 
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:52 am

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