Darkness Rising

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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Exate » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:43 am

MarbitChow wrote:
Exate wrote:MarbitChow/Swodaems, are we just dropping the Thinkamancy conversation between Tod, Yuri, and the King, or did I miss your latest responses there?
I was under the impression that the call was concluded. The King conveyed his intentions, Yuri accepted the position, and that was that. Was there something else you wanted to discuss with him?
Well, there was this:
Exate wrote:"If running talking battles, is needing thinkamancy for use. Erf is large place, cannot always be walking to talks. Chief Warlord is needing item Leadership bonuses- but something soon, yes?"
It's basically laughable to have a chief diplomat who has communications assets worse than either the King or Chief Warlord. He can't reasonably diplomance anyone like that, let alone seek out and talk with far-off potential allies. Resolving this with the King would be nice.

And I was rather thinking that at some point during the conversation I'd bring up the sticky issue of whom amongst Tod and Yuri is supposed to outrank one another, or if one does, on a day to day basis. Yes we're immune to orders and freed from the usual hierarchy, but rank and precedence is still important to know and many matters don't touch directly on either battle or diplomacy- or conversely might be said to involve both.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:19 pm

Exate wrote:And I was rather thinking that at some point during the conversation I'd bring up the sticky issue of whom amongst Tod and Yuri is supposed to outrank one another, or if one does, on a day to day basis. Yes we're immune to orders and freed from the usual hierarchy, but rank and precedence is still important to know and many matters don't touch directly on either battle or diplomacy- or conversely might be said to involve both.


OOC:

My, my. Our dark fellowship seems to be rapidly unraveling :twisted:

FWIW, Tod's Chief Warlord. So there's your answer.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Swodaems » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:24 pm

Exate wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:
Exate wrote:MarbitChow/Swodaems, are we just dropping the Thinkamancy conversation between Tod, Yuri, and the King, or did I miss your latest responses there?
I was under the impression that the call was concluded. The King conveyed his intentions, Yuri accepted the position, and that was that. Was there something else you wanted to discuss with him?
Well, there was this:
Exate wrote:"If running talking battles, is needing thinkamancy for use. Erf is large place, cannot always be walking to talks. Chief Warlord is needing item Leadership bonuses- but something soon, yes?"
It's basically laughable to have a chief diplomat who has communications assets worse than either the King or Chief Warlord. He can't reasonably diplomance anyone like that, let alone seek out and talk with far-off potential allies. Resolving this with the King would be nice.

And I was rather thinking that at some point during the conversation I'd bring up the sticky issue of whom amongst Tod and Yuri is supposed to outrank one another, or if one does, on a day to day basis. Yes we're immune to orders and freed from the usual hierarchy, but rank and precedence is still important to know and many matters don't touch directly on either battle or diplomacy- or conversely might be said to involve both.
We seem to have timey-wimey balled our RP bit again and are describing events taking place at different times. Before this conversation, Tod apparently goes to where Junetta, Triage, and T. Coil are arguing over the prisoner and then decides in favor of letting Triage and Junetta handle them. After it, he has a talk with T. Coil that goes poorly, and then goes to check on the prisoners. He hears Wandereus talking about the elven information there and then goes to find Yuri again. The call to Zoltarus happens after everything settles down.

You left the question of if you wanted to lead the field force up in limbo in your last post, so in my post reacting to the information about the faeries, I assumed you either accepted or decided to give me an answer later as you appeared to like the idea. Sorry for the breach of RP etiquette.

Continuing the three-way conversation, "I'm willing to let you borrow it as needed, however, I request that you always return it to me soon after. The bonus to leadership it supplies currently useless to you." (Yuri doesn't have enhanced leadership and I asked earlier if I would need to take the last leadership special at level 6 to use the bracer to get to a bonus of 7. The answer was yes.) "I have plans to use one of its two charges later today, but feel free to use the other as you wish. King, there is also the option of using your Crown to set up three-way calls such as this one between Yourself, Yuri and any representatives you wish to talk to. This may even be the preferable option as having our ruler watching the talks would show a certain respect to whoever we're talking to."

You may also wish to respond to the information about the faeries. Tod tracks Yuri down and discloses the information with the potential ramnifications for the mission.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:I now need to see Tod about a capture mission, since I noticed I'm not part of it. Let's see if he decided my one shot croaks are necessary after all, given the possible threats along the way.
Actually, Will does have a small part already in the capture mission. If the capture team is to spend a night in the target hex, then they need protection. Since the protection can't come into the hex at the same time as the capture team, it rides the balrug in after the initial capture takes place. I was planning for Will to be a part of that.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:31 pm

Swodaems wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:I now need to see Tod about a capture mission, since I noticed I'm not part of it. Let's see if he decided my one shot croaks are necessary after all, given the possible threats along the way.
Actually, Will does have a small part already in the capture mission. If the capture team is to spend a night in the target hex, then they need protection. Since the protection can't come into the hex at the same time as the capture team, it rides the balrug in after the initial capture takes place. I was planning for Will to be a part of that.


Hm. Why is the support Balrug to enter the hex after the capture team? Afraid I'll let Amandaria out the easy way?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:48 pm

Note that the Thinkagram establishes a connection between any two people. The 'caster' (or item-wielder, more accurately) does not have to be either of those targets. Tod has been establishing primarily one-way connections thus far, but he can do two-way connections as well, as can the King (the call between Tod, Yuri and himself only used 1 charge).

The King suggests that, at the start of each turn, he use one of his charges to coordinate with Tod and Yuri, and allocate the communication resources each day. Tod's will be used primarily for emergency communications and tactical coordination, while the King place the remaining four at Yuri's disposal, for any external communications he wishes to make.

With regards to "who answers to who", you're all free-willed. Tod's responsible for military preparation and execution, and Yuri's responsible for attempting to establish alliances and handling negotiations with all neutral sides. The King leaves it to the two of you to work together to execute your equally-valuable goals. He also requests that you privately suggest someone to fill the position of Chief Caster, because he fears that he's going to need someone to start keeping the casters in line, or at least help to coordinate their efforts. (We can conduct the Chief Caster discussion via PM if you both desire.)
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:52 pm

MarbitChow wrote:He also requests that you privately suggest someone to fill the position of Chief Caster, because he fears that he's going to need someone to start keeping the casters in line, or at least help to coordinate their efforts. (We can conduct the Chief Caster discussion via PM if you both desire.)


OOC: I take it that the King did not expressly ask for the other PCs' opinion on this, leaving a decision at the latitude of the leadership units? At least the Casters may want to weigh in on this. And other PCs too if they were asked ...
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:55 pm

MarbitChow wrote:With regards to "who answers to who", you're all free-willed.


OOC: also, nope.

Suppose William wanted a ride on the Balrug along with a hefty group of archers and Spaceout-capable units. Not happening if it's not Tod's call.

Too extreme an example? Replace William with Yuri and I -still- don't see that happening without Tod's consent. Which is how it should be. That's why rank matters.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:56 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:He also requests that you privately suggest someone to fill the position of Chief Caster
OOC: I take it that the King did not expressly ask for the other PCs' opinion on this, leaving a decision at the latitude of the leadership units? At least the Casters may want to weigh in on this. And other PCs too if they were asked ...

OOC I think it's reasonably safe to assume most casters at least to some degree selfishly want ourselves in the position. Bill and T. Coil both make sense for various reasons both thematic and tactical, whereas Vinny and Triage both may have caught attention because of their contributions to the tactics of the last battle. So because most of us probably want the position, I think it's better that we actually stay out of the discussion.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:58 pm

0beron wrote:OOC I think it's reasonably safe to assume most casters at least to some degree selfishly want ourselves in the position. Bill and T. Coil both make sense for various reasons both thematic and tactical, whereas Vinny and Triage both may have caught attention because of their contributions to the tactics of the last battle. So because most of us probably want the position, I think it's better that we actually stay out of the discussion.


OOC: and it shouldn't be a surprise that if asked, William would prefer Bill.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:59 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Suppose William wanted a ride on the Balrug along with a hefty group of archers and Spaceout-capable units. Not happening if it's not Tod's call.
Nothing prevents William from telling Junetta and 2 other units of his choice that they should accompany him to the Balrug, and take it for a spin at the start of the turn. Tod may be pissed when he gets back, or they may all die, but William is free to do so.

If William chooses not to, that's because he has voluntarily submitted to obeying rank, not because he is required to do so.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:01 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Suppose William wanted a ride on the Balrug along with a hefty group of archers and Spaceout-capable units. Not happening if it's not Tod's call.
Nothing prevents William from telling Junetta and 2 other units of his choice that they should accompany him to the Balrug, and take it for a spin at the start of the turn. Tod may be pissed when he gets back, or they may all die, but William is free to do so.

If William chooses not to, that's because he has voluntarily submitted to obeying rank, not because he is required to do so.


OOC: oh really? NPCs will follow any regular PCJoe around eh?

Well then that changes a few things. Where's Ix?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:06 pm

OOC:

while waiting for the answer on the Ix thing, I'd like to point out a corollary to the above. There's nothing stopping Coil from barging in and telling the Alt. Elves "Pain has a face. Allow me to show it to you. I am Pain!".

But, somehow, we understood in story that Tod's decision to prevent Coil from doing that overrides Coil's obvious desire to do so. Yes, technically Coil may be free to disregard the order. That's a mere nitpick. The rank of Tod gives authority to Tod's order to leave the Alt. Elves alone. Should Coil go against it, I imagine other Tenebrisian units may be justified in ending him.

Thus, rank matters.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:15 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:OOC: oh really? NPCs will follow any regular PCJoe around eh?
Sure. You just walk up to them and say "Orders from Tod. Come with me." :D
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Well then that changes a few things. Where's Ix?
That, you're not sure of. You've heard that they may be sending a delegation to your side to find out more about you, though.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:18 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:OOC: oh really? NPCs will follow any regular PCJoe around eh?
Sure. You just walk up to them and say "Orders from Tod. Come with me." :D


OOC: The fact that I need to mention Tod at all reinforces my previous question about rank.

Even if you decide to leave it entirely up to the players as to how we organize ourselves hierarchically, it's really not just us. It's the NPCs too. In case of a conflict, who will follow who? Our avatar units must have some intuition of how leadership works. Therefore we need to know. Rank matters. How is it resolved if one leader gives an order, and another gives a contradictory one?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:22 pm

OOC the more I think about it, I wonder if T. Coil and Triage are actually viable choices....as picking one will upset the other.... At least Vinny and Bill are "inoffensive" choices.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby The Colonel » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:25 pm

Office politics, you learn to hate it.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:27 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:OOC: The fact that I need to mention Tod at all reinforces my previous question about rank.
Where does the Secretary of State rank with regards to the Secretary of Defense? Those are the effective positions that Yuri and Tod now hold.

In Erfworld, units are compelled to follow orders. But your King has granted Free Will to a significant number of units on your side, including units that do not hold leadership positions. This is a profound change from the rest of Erfworld, and may have significant repercussions. This isn't just a convenience for the game's sake, it's a core part of the story.

Yuri was able to negotiate a treaty with Charlie, when only the Chief Warlord or Overlord should have been able to. This has not gone unnoticed.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:29 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Where does the Secretary of State rank with regards to the Secretary of Defense? Those are the effective positions that Yuri and Tod now hold.


That, and the rest of the post, is mere evasion.

Tod orders an archer to stay in town and defend it. Yuri orders him to stack up and go in an expedition to a ruin.

Who wins?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:30 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Tod orders an archer to stay in town and defend it. Yuri orders him to stack up and go in an expedition to a ruin.

Tod, because he rules over the military. It matches Marbit's analogy perfectly, what would a soldier do if they got attack orders from the Secretary of State? Ignore them.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:32 pm

0beron wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Tod orders an archer to stay in town and defend it. Yuri orders him to stack up and go in an expedition to a ruin.

Tod, because he rules over the military. It matches Marbit's analogy perfectly, what would a soldier do if they got attack orders from the Secretary of State? Ignore them.


You're thinking with rank. Which is exactly what I'm trying to get out of MarbitChow whether he admits it or not.

There must be a resolution, rank dependent, to such situations. It doesn't matter whether rank is an in-game construct or something we the players agree on. It -must- have consequences in the mechanics.
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