Book 2 – Page 95

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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby Oberon » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:48 am

Smoker wrote:naww, I just had a mental image of little "tweety-bird" birdcages popping around all the doombats, caging them in midair.
Imagine the "tweety-bird" birdcage for a megalogwiff!
Lamech wrote:OTOH, not all Jetstone units are entering the fray (note the column marching away?)
Are you sure that isn't Sir Pessimism and the king, mustering the troops for the charge?
Lamech wrote:I still suspect they are outnumbered and outgunned, otherwise I don't think the pessimism would be as great.
That's a good point, except:
Do they know that Wanda has left the field? That's a huge power shift due to the absence of the decryption double shift. You know, you lose a unit and I gain one. Or even I lose a unit and then it's mine again.
Sir Pessimism has unleashed his inner pessimist, so he might be understating their odds. Spacely doesn't seem to share his opinion, and wouldn't Spacely have had to have served as a warlord at some point in his life? Popped as an heir he'd still have been put to some use, right? The history of Spacely's fallen princes seems to bear this out. Even the unorthodox way Tram was treated did give him field experience.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby drachefly » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:30 am

'Spacely'? I'm, uh, not catching this particular mutation on 'Slately'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:34 am

drachefly wrote:'Spacely'? I'm, uh, not catching this particular mutation on 'Slately'.

Well thats the Real World reference for his name I believe, it is a combination of the bosses from Flintstones (Mr Slate) and the Jetsons (Mr Spacely). Since Ohberon has a previously stated ill opinion of Slately, I assume he was using the more 'insulting' name on purpose (something I fully agree with, sharing his dislike of the king haha)
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby Allsardane » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:02 pm

bladestorm wrote:
Allsardane wrote:Ace will probably make a "save cubbins and I'll do whatever you want" offer..

That's prolly adding fuel to someone's fanfic, though I figured Ace as more of a top than a sub.



Nyuk nyuk :) I think I can come up with a statement that serves both the fan fiction and the ACTUAL intended meaning of my post:

Given his name, Ace Hardware is simply a tool designed to be used by one person in order to get another off. For the storyline, this means that-
1. Ace is being wielded by the King in order to screw Parson by uninstalling a door
2. Ace is trying to crowbar his way into the battle in order to pull up a floorboard and retrieve a lost tool
3. A captured Ace will provide much leverage for Parson when he finds himself lacking an army.

For the fanfic-
Well, I'm sure you can do what you want with this, but it makes a little more sense I think for him to be a sub.

Also, you dirty. Bad!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby Whispri » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:59 pm

Lamech wrote:The bigger flaws in the estimate are actually croaked Jetstonians who never got back up. All the archers atop the tower, and Artemis's slain knights all subtract from the GK side. OTOH, not all Jetstone units are entering the fray (note the column marching away?) I still suspect they are outnumbered and outgunned, otherwise I don't think the pessimism would be as great.

Not to mention the battle at the bridge, they were facing over a thousand men there (across multiple hexes), even a kill ratio of ten for one would have cost Jetstone a hundred lives. Also field Units away from the Capital, there must be some, even if they're all freshly popped Units who couldn't reach Spacerock in time. Hrrrrrmmmmmmmm.......... do we know that all Units in a City become barbarians when a Side falls? Perhaps only garrison Units remain.

Still, it does look like Jetstone have the numerical advantage, on the surface at least, I'm pretty sure a lot of the defenders are standing in the dungeon waiting for the Chief Warlord.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby No one in particular » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:05 pm

Units in a city when a Side falls don't become barbarians, they become Neutral. 2nd Paragraph, yo

This is based on "Capital Remains, Ruler is Croaked" though.
Apparently, if its' "Capital is Taken, Heir is Alive" that's when the Barbarian thing kicks in.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby Whispri » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:04 pm

No one in particular wrote:Units in a city when a Side falls don't become barbarians, they become Neutral. 2nd Paragraph, yo

This is based on "Capital Remains, Ruler is Croaked" though.
Apparently, if its' "Capital is Taken, Heir is Alive" that's when the Barbarian thing kicks in.

Yes, however, iirc Ansom later referred to their state post Stanley croaking as 'helpless Barbarism'. I am therefore treating the term 'Neutral' as interchangeable with 'Barbarian'.

I do wonder if the whole 'frozen in time' thing is a Capital City only thing. That I think, combined with the known losses that can't have been Decrypted, would explain the discrepancy in the numbers quite nicely.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby bladestorm » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:11 pm

Maybe the pessimistic Lord Paul Downer's comments about "if we do this right" is foreshadowing him adapting his war strategy. The right and true way isn't going to work with any success short of using a living wall to protect the king just long enough to achieve the mission. "This may go against everything Jetstone has stood for, my leige, but desperate times call for desperate measures. Here's what we'll do.... " cut scene to MK argument.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:41 pm

No one in particular wrote:Apparently, if its' "Capital is Taken, Heir is Alive" that's when the Barbarian thing kicks in.

However there are still foggy bits about that mechanic. All of our examples so far deal with sides that had only one city left, their Capital. Because Jetstone has other cities left, among them a secondary Capital Site, we're awaiting confirmation of what happens. Just wanted to point that out.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby Oberon » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:14 pm

Zeroberon wrote:
drachefly wrote:'Spacely'? I'm, uh, not catching this particular mutation on 'Slately'.

Well thats the Real World reference for his name I believe, it is a combination of the bosses from Flintstones (Mr Slate) and the Jetsons (Mr Spacely). Since Ohberon has a previously stated ill opinion of Slately, I assume he was using the more 'insulting' name on purpose (something I fully agree with, sharing his dislike of the king haha)
Zeroberon is correct, sorry for the obscure nickname. I don't think much of Slately, and the attitudes of royals towards non-royals in particular. And especially their SOP for parley. But in this case I was defending Slately's assessment of the situation, citing his (assumed, but isn't it a given?) history as a warlord, and juxtaposing that with Sir Pessimism's assessment. Slately should, even if he hasn't exercised it for many turns since he became king, have enough background in leading troops as a warlord to not be a complete imbecile when it comes to looking at a tactical situation and measuring the odds. Add to this Sir Pessimism's self-admitted pessimism ("Are you always so pessimistic?" "Not at all. I saved it for my last battle." And it almost doesn't bear mentioning that even stating that it is his last battle is pessimism), and the true assessment should fall somewhere in between the two.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:19 pm

Ah that's fair. I would argue further that his many turns (3000 IIRC) of being off the field has probably allowed the Royal Supremecy idea to get to his head and made him unduly optimistic about the situation. So yes, the objective assessment would probably reveal an opinion somewhere between the two.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby LTDave » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:26 am

Ok, new issue for me.

Assume:
Slately makes it to the Throne. The Capital changes.
IF this happens before Parson enters the portal, then maybe Parson goes straight to the new capital, and is captured by the Garrison.

IF this happens after Parson enters the portal, then Parson is in the old city, and can't get back via the portal - o noes, he is twapped.
Except that GK has their turn next. Unless Charlie is standing by with an Armada of Archons and has the turn, Parson can just get on a dwagon and fly out of dodge before Jetstone takes their next turn. And GK can set up a relay, and fly him all the way home if they want.

If the plan is to 'Kill the man-who-is-dressed-like-he's-fat', why is Trem marching away with the rest of the troops? Why not hang out in the city, wait for Parson to come through, swap the capitals, and then charge back into the Garrison?

Because they can't. If Cubbins dies, the Garrison falls, and everyone is captured, including Trem, the new-to-be King. So why doesn't Trem just leave with a small party, go out the city a hex, and wait to see what happens?

Maybe this is what is happening.




{I really don't understand why Parson wants to go through the Portal. They've taken the City off-turn, killed the King, and are on the verge of capturing the garrison and all the enemy units in the city. What more does he hope to achieve? Why does he still want to go through? Why did he want to go through in the first place? It does not make sense.}
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby Oberon » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:13 am

LTDave wrote:{I really don't understand why Parson wants to go through the Portal. They've taken the City off-turn, killed the King, and are on the verge of capturing the garrison and all the enemy units in the city. What more does he hope to achieve? Why does he still want to go through? Why did he want to go through in the first place? It does not make sense.}
They haven't taken the city. They also haven't killed the king (so far as they know, Clonely notwithstanding). They might be on the verge of capturing the garrison, but that is not a given. Parson wanted to go through in the first place to risk his life along with the people he is placing in harms way.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:42 am

Actually Parson being twapped is a lot worse than you make it out to be. Given the MK stuff, he was going to be trapped anyway, but there are a few things you're forgetting. GK doesn't have a turn next..next is NIGHT. Followed by Charlsecomm's turn at dawn, THEN GK. So yes, parson could very well be screwed, though this would happen anyway.

Jetstone doesn't know this, however Charlie probably does. Which means this tactic either weakens Jetstone in a way that benefits Charlie, or he has some kind of plan that can still work in the current day, but such a plan requires that Jetstone still hold the city.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:19 pm

LTDave wrote:Except that GK has their turn next. Unless Charlie is standing by with an Armada of Archons and has the turn, Parson can just get on a dwagon and fly out of dodge before Jetstone takes their next turn. And GK can set up a relay, and fly him all the way home if they want.

Parson is too heavy to be carried by a flying dwagon - remember Banana? (We don't know if he can be carried across a hex boundary by a walking mount for a greater cost in movement points.)

So Parson would have to walk home, or anywhere else. Without city defenses, to be safe from a combined Faq + archon + TV airborne attack, he would need to be escorted by a bunch of dwagons. Tying up the dwagons that way would make GK much less effective.

Also, if Parson and his dwagon escort chose to march forward to Jetstone city (or another enemy capital), hoping to get Parson through the portal before the city is formally taken, another Royal Side, or a Side paid off by Charlie, could make a donation to Jetstone of a capital site, a unit, and the schmuckers to upgrade that unit to Heir so that they can play musical capitals. So using Parson and his escort in ground assaults would take him even further from GK rather than giving him a shortcut home.


Maybe Charlie is really hoping that GK will split off a new Side in order to reactivate a captured portal. He might have carniemantic plans that include helping the new Side wriggle out of whatever magical contract Stanley imposes on it to keep it allied.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby cheeseaholic » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:37 pm

We don't actually know who's side is next. Hidden armies aside (Charlescom or anyone he could have hired), Kingsworld messed up the turn order in a way that we don't know how it works. Not that I think it matters all that much at this point in time.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:44 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:We don't actually know who's side is next. Kingsworld messed up the turn order in a way that we don't know how it works.

Disagree....it pretty clearly advanced the turn order. The known turn order is Charlie > GK > RCC. Kingworld simply prematurely ended GK's turn.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby cheeseaholic » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:53 pm

It pretty clearly made it Jetstone's turn. It may have advanced the turn order, given them a second turn, switched their turn with another side's, permanently moved it, or just messed up Parson's head with his stroke induced hallucination of this strange midget world.

Oh and it's not GK's turn now too. Maybe their turns got switched?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:12 pm

Stanely, Page 21 wrote:Our turn ended.

Kingworld may have been game-breaking, but it was quite obvious what it did.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 95

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:49 pm

0beron wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:We don't actually know who's side is next. Kingsworld messed up the turn order in a way that we don't know how it works.

Disagree....it pretty clearly advanced the turn order. The known turn order is Charlie > GK > RCC. Kingworld simply prematurely ended GK's turn.


Though isn't alliance turn order determined by the last turn of the alliance? If the true order were Charlie > Jetstone > GK > Haggar > TV > Faq, Jetstone could break alliance with the RCC II to get back in front.
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