Book 2 – Page 96

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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby joosy » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:57 pm

noname_hero wrote:
Oberon wrote:
Werebiscuit wrote:There must be some hidden parameters to incur the fall mechanic
It is as you said: A jump is not a fall. So long as it does not cross a zone, it is a controlled motion without danger.


Allow me to quote from Parson's situation room notes:
You can croak from a three foot fall.
So if you get dismounted, it's a fall. Knocked off a tower or a wall? Fall. Your flying mount is shot out from under you? Fall.


Crossing zones is obviously not the only case where fall mechanics come into play. Oh, and do I have to remind you that the Jetstones are in fact crossing zones, even though this fact is not really important?

The zones only exist for those who do not control the city. There is no zone penalty movement or otherwise for those who are in control of the city.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby fjolnir » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:13 pm

watch this whole thing be resolved by parson hitting a wall like the hex boundry when he tries to enter, negating all plans and machinations.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby effataigus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:16 pm

sheepfly wrote:This is a small thing, but the text bubble in the third panel appears to be coming from the wrong dwagon rider, unless someone other than Sylvia is saying, "Now." Based on the other panels, Sylvia is on the red dwagon second from the right, from Slately's perspective.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Housellama » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:17 pm

First, I never really understood Charlie/JS's plan to change the Capital anyway. This was always meant to be a decapitation strike, meaning Parson would be stuck no matter what happened. Unless they moved the Capital to SR then moved the Capital back to GK (hey, there's a thought), Parson was always going to be stuck. Maybe they figured Parson would head back before they actually killed the King and/or heir? I dunno. I don't get it.

Second, there are a number of people who don't want him through the Portal. TGMTTA, the Hippymancers (or at least Janis) and the Carneymancers and those who support them, presumably for their own reasons. There are also lot of people seem to want Parson through the Portal. GK and Parson himself, Charlie and the Predictamancers, again, presumably all for their own reasons. When I see GK/Parson, Charlie and the Predictamancers's interests and desires coincide, it makes me ask why. It also makes me worry.

(Edited to remove unnecessary incendiary material, pun fully intended)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:23 pm

Housellama wrote:Second, now that that's out of my system, I never really understood Charlie/JS's plan to change the Capital anyway. This was always meant to be a decapitation strike, meaning Parson would be stuck no matter what happened.
There's a world of difference between having no way to retreat once you've won and having no retreat while you're still fighting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Housellama » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:26 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Housellama wrote:I never really understood Charlie/JS's plan to change the Capital anyway. This was always meant to be a decapitation strike, meaning Parson would be stuck no matter what happened.
There's a world of difference between having no way to retreat once you've won and having no retreat while you're still fighting.

...you make a very valid point.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby sheepfly » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:56 pm

Housellama wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:
Housellama wrote:I never really understood Charlie/JS's plan to change the Capital anyway. This was always meant to be a decapitation strike, meaning Parson would be stuck no matter what happened.
There's a world of difference between having no way to retreat once you've won and having no retreat while you're still fighting.

...you make a very valid point.


It still raises the question of what Charlie can do on Jetstone's turn. Jetstone can't end turn with an enemy force occupying most of their garrison (right?). So turn ends when GK finishes taking the garrison or is wiped out.

Some thoughts:

1. Charlie could pull something involving one of the other coalition members. He already did it with Haggar, so that's kind of predictable.
2. Charlie could send casters from the magic kingdom into Spacerock after Parson, at Jetstone's invitation. The timing on this would have to be tight and it's difficult to imagine the pro-Parson forces just letting this happen, but Charlie does have resources and methods of persuasion to draw on that others do not.
3. The only instance we've seen of aggressors cohabitating a hex without being able to engage (and being able to end turn!) was with Haffaton's hippiemancy. That was on a smaller scale and required some very powerful rhyme-o-mancy from Olive, and it's not clear how a Hippiemancer sympathetic to Charlie's goal of endless conflict would a) exist and b) make it to the battlefield, but it has to be considered.
What would YOU say if you'd won with strength and duty and honor every time when suddenly a veiled flying zero-upkeep 100% recycled army of former friends showed up to croak you with massive numbers and bonuses and skulls with little pink flowers?

Yeah..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Oberon » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:09 pm

noname_hero wrote:So if you get dismounted, it's a fall. Knocked off a tower or a wall? Fall. Your flying mount is shot out from under you? Fall.
None of those are a controlled jump. They are falls brought about by enemy action. There is a big difference. Or do you really believe that a hopping plushy invites death for itself and it's rider on every damn hop?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby cheeseaholic » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:46 pm

Perhaps another natural ally takeover? There's a lot of heavy hobgobwins in that hex right now. And Dwagons for that matter, which we suspect Charlie messed with the spawn rate of at least earlier.

The problem with guessing what's comming is we don't know what's all possible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby mortissimus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:49 pm

sheepfly wrote:Also--good to see that there's still a living yellow dwagon on GK's side. Anything that can fight and fall and be decrypted to fight again for GK could be critical in the next few minutes of battle.

Solid update.


You mean the yellow dwagon we see in panel 3? I guess it was one of the dwagons flown by a Hobgobwin that was upgraded to heavy.

However, Wanda is in the Magic Kingdom and appears not to be let back so no decryption.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby noname_hero » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:07 pm

Oberon wrote:
noname_hero wrote:So if you get dismounted, it's a fall. Knocked off a tower or a wall? Fall. Your flying mount is shot out from under you? Fall.
None of those are a controlled jump. They are falls brought about by enemy action. There is a big difference. Or do you really believe that a hopping plushy invites death for itself and it's rider on every damn hop?


A unit intentionally dismounting from its own flying mount, a mount hovering three feet above ground, counts as suffering a fall and can die from it. No enemy action involved.

This is not about what *initiates* the fall mechanic. It is about how it works.

And that hopping tankeroo is utilizing its normal method of movement. The guys jumping from that wall are human-like, that jump is more than the above-mentioned three feet and it is not their regular method of movement. I do know what it is like to actually move in armor and those rushing Jetstone units are doing something that would (in reality) almost certainly lead to various injuries even if they wore no armor and carried no weapons. I'm repeating myself, I know, but... Go ahead and try a stunt like that. Find a group of several hundred people, load every one of them with at least fifteen kilos and have them jump from a two-meter wall while running in a tightly packed formation suitable for medieval infantry. And let us know how many of them limp away instead of rushing onwards.

Now try it again, this time with every one of them carrying something sharp and pointy, like a spear or a sword.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby effataigus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:28 pm

noname_hero wrote:This is not about what *initiates* the fall mechanic. It is about how it works.
...
Now try it again, this time with every one of them carrying something sharp and pointy, like a spear or a sword.

He's right... this is the ONLY possible interpretation of the rules as presented and this one picture that maybe shows on turn units jumping down off of a little ledge from one ground level zone to another in a friendly city. All of Jetstone's units should have landed on their own spears and swords and been killed long before they got to that lake of poison gas and fire... no, more than that... every unit that we've ever seen go down a flight of stairs should have a >99% chance of being pulverized to a pulp! This is an outrage. I HOPE THAT SHARK LOOKED GOOD FROM ABOVE ROB, I AM OUT.

I love how we (myself included) look so hard for rules discrepancies. Rob's job must be stressful.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Talisid » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:38 pm

Lamech wrote:Dude Sylvia can't die. She got fate armor. Anyway, it looks like Jetstone is trying to punch through a choke point versus area of effects. That hurts. Plus the city is on fire, they are going to need to charge through the flame. O_O

P.S. If the king has his view does that mean the front line is croaked?


No, she THINKS she has fate armor. We don't know that she's protected by fate unless a preditamancer says so.

Even if she does have a Fate that was protecting her, Fate is kind of a funny thing like that, for all she knows Fate has been protecting her up to this point so that she can die in this battle to fulfill some larger purpose.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Radagast » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:10 pm

As far as we know, Charlie never promised to kill Parson on Jetstone's turn. Jetstone may or may not be aware of that. However it is hinted that he has "significant forces" in the battlespace, and he'll (most likely) have a turn before GK gets another turn. I think that yes, the key with the timing is preventing Wanda from going back, as without her there Charlie can archon-swarm the place on his next turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby effataigus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:50 pm

sheepfly wrote:It still raises the question of what Charlie can do on Jetstone's turn. Jetstone can't end turn with an enemy force occupying most of their garrison (right?).


It's an interesting point... I assumed the same, but Erfworld is a strange place. I'm not sure we have any explicit confirmation that units can fight all through the night (Wanda and Jillian? clearly not the same thing). Maybe homeslice will hit the throne, change the capital, and end turn to trigger some kind of natural hippiemancy for nap-time. Then when dawn arrives Charlie's archons will be kicking down the (collapsed) door.

But yeah, otherwise I don't see how a theory that involves Charlie getting his significant forces in the game before the city falls or doesn't could play out without bizarre and unprecedented turn lawyering. I've been surprised before though.

I do find it interesting that there's nothing stopping Haggar from joining this fight at this second except Haggar... they got thrashed, but they're not down for the count by my reading.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby DevilDan » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:05 pm

As long as Parson is stuck one way or another without portal access, Charlie will have multiple options for capturing Parson. Despite the reversals, Charlie is always going to try to keep Parson alive as he's too valuable a resource.

Unless... unless knowledge of an uncroaked Parson, and particularly of Parson under Charlescomm, somehow worries others sides to such a degree that they band against Charlie or distrust Charlie too much to employ him. Yes, that is highly unlikely, but it is the one scenario I can think of in which Charlie would want Parson croaked at this juncture.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Housellama » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:30 pm

DevilDan wrote:As long as Parson is stuck one way or another without portal access, Charlie will have multiple options for capturing Parson. Despite the reversals, Charlie is always going to try to keep Parson alive as he's too valuable a resource.

Unless... unless knowledge of an uncroaked Parson, and particularly of Parson under Charlescomm, somehow worries others sides to such a degree that they band against Charlie or distrust Charlie too much to employ him. Yes, that is highly unlikely, but it is the one scenario I can think of in which Charlie would want Parson croaked at this juncture.

I can think of several reasons why Charlie would want Parson dead. The first being that he's simply too dangerous to be left alive. The Mathamancy bracer can be taken off of his cold, dead corpse. The second is that we can assume Charlie knows of Parson's origin. Since he's not of Erfworld origin, there's always a question of whether or not Loyalty and Duty and other such things will apply to him. Better a safe corpse than a dangerous captive. Third, Parson has had time to talk to the Decrypted Archons. He, therefore, knows too much. Even if he is on Charlie's Side, Parson's too smart to be allowed to have that much information. Therefore, corpse.

No matter how I look at it, Charlie's best options always end with Parson croaked.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby bladestorm » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:57 pm

Housellama wrote:
DevilDan wrote:As long as Parson is stuck one way or another without portal access, Charlie will have multiple options for capturing Parson. Despite the reversals, Charlie is always going to try to keep Parson alive as he's too valuable a resource.

Unless... unless knowledge of an uncroaked Parson, and particularly of Parson under Charlescomm, somehow worries others sides to such a degree that they band against Charlie or distrust Charlie too much to employ him. Yes, that is highly unlikely, but it is the one scenario I can think of in which Charlie would want Parson croaked at this juncture.

I can think of several reasons why Charlie would want Parson dead. The first being that he's simply too dangerous to be left alive. The Mathamancy bracer can be taken off of his cold, dead corpse. The second is that we can assume Charlie knows of Parson's origin. Since he's not of Erfworld origin, there's always a question of whether or not Loyalty and Duty and other such things will apply to him. Better a safe corpse than a dangerous captive. Third, Parson has had time to talk to the Decrypted Archons. He, therefore, knows too much. Even if he is on Charlie's Side, Parson's too smart to be allowed to have that much information. Therefore, corpse.

No matter how I look at it, Charlie's best options always end with Parson croaked.

Parson croaked without being decrypted. Or just outright killed with no chance of decryption.

Anyway, a decrypted perfect warlord whose upkeep goes from just over 1000/turn to 0... that's something scary. Plus, if Charlescomm could have the pliers and set all of the Archon's upkeep to 0 while still retaining full abilities.....that would be truly scary.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Salem » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:00 pm

noname_hero wrote:
Oberon wrote:
noname_hero wrote:So if you get dismounted, it's a fall. Knocked off a tower or a wall? Fall. Your flying mount is shot out from under you? Fall.
None of those are a controlled jump. They are falls brought about by enemy action. There is a big difference. Or do you really believe that a hopping plushy invites death for itself and it's rider on every damn hop?


A unit intentionally dismounting from its own flying mount, a mount hovering three feet above ground, counts as suffering a fall and can die from it. No enemy action involved.

This is not about what *initiates* the fall mechanic. It is about how it works.

And that hopping tankeroo is utilizing its normal method of movement. The guys jumping from that wall are human-like, that jump is more than the above-mentioned three feet and it is not their regular method of movement. I do know what it is like to actually move in armor and those rushing Jetstone units are doing something that would (in reality) almost certainly lead to various injuries even if they wore no armor and carried no weapons. I'm repeating myself, I know, but... Go ahead and try a stunt like that. Find a group of several hundred people, load every one of them with at least fifteen kilos and have them jump from a two-meter wall while running in a tightly packed formation suitable for medieval infantry. And let us know how many of them limp away instead of rushing onwards.

Now try it again, this time with every one of them carrying something sharp and pointy, like a spear or a sword.

It is a valid argument that it's natural movement type. We're thinking to "Earth" and not "Erf." It is quite possible that jump rope is actually Russian Roullette on Erf. Game mechanics not physics.

When we talk about jumping from a wall in armor being different than hopping it IS. But we're using flawed logic, sliding onto your feet from a hovering mount is not much different than hopping. Frankly these guys could have the Geronimo special and be immune to falling damage during jump attacks. (Bad movie, not legendary figure.)
Maybe skipping down hill DOES invite death. Or maybe the rules allow you to attack down as long as it's both "ground zones." One rule is really moot compared to another considering that we know you can hop, we know you can walk down steps, I imagine you can hop off the last step when you're in a rush of excitement over talking with lord Hamster. We know height plays a roll, so perhaps a purposeful jump (DnD style) can reduce the height even to 0 for a null fall. Maybe armor factors in maybe it doesn't. Maybe only unit size does. It's silly. Game rules often are. Bag of rats anyone?
Just because it leads to illogical consequences doesn't mean it's not fact. Games are full of that. Alignment systems are total silliness. Arguments based on absurdness need not apply.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Lamech » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:50 pm

bladestorm wrote:Parson croaked without being decrypted. Or just outright killed with no chance of decryption.
Here something to consider: What if Parson doesn't croak? Sure he can have his head turned into chunky salsa which will put him down, but if he doesn't croak it will heal right up at the start of the next turn. There might very well be a difference between croaking Parson (0 hits) and killing him. (Chunky Salsa head)
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