Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby sheepfly » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:06 am

Arky wrote:Well, well. Olive isn't as serenely in control of everything as it looks. To burn an asset like Wanda because of an I-told-you-so is, well, Stanley-ish. Something has gone seriously wrong for Olive other than just not having finished off FAQ yet.

I Predict that, rather than go south to Transylvito, King Banhammer and FAQ's military have followed a prediction or some other piece of intelligence (lookamancy?) and are about to launch a decapitation strike on the Haffaton capital the way Jillian planned all along.

This bald jester in Jillan's head thing seems to be way too sensible to just be a hallucination. I'm not convinced that even undrugged Jillian would think like that.


Personally I think Olive could have staged the plants to look like FAQ's when they are, in fact, not from FAQ. In her drugged-up state, Jillian could have described the plants under questioning and now wouldn't notice any telling details that would give away the bluff. Olive could be upset now because Jillian's stubborn refusal to turn and her lie about Transylvito were not what Olive was hoping for. If FAQ hasn't actually been conquered, it could mean that Jillian's reaction did not provide enough information to let Haffaton curb stomp FAQ... and Haffaton, as impoverished as it is, cannot afford a protracted search for a bubble kingdom off in the mountains somewhere.

I think you might be right with that Prediction, except that their decapitation strike would need to be more of a rescue mission against Efbaum and the Olive Garden. That's where Judy is, after all, and you can't decapitate a side unless you cut off its head. Maybe Brother Orwell could locate Jillian for a rescue party?
What would YOU say if you'd won with strength and duty and honor every time when suddenly a veiled flying zero-upkeep 100% recycled army of former friends showed up to croak you with massive numbers and bonuses and skulls with little pink flowers?

Yeah..
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Smoker » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:08 am

I always assumed the Jester was Jack. Perhaps he's in a thinkamancy linkup for the purposes of supporting Jillian via some subtle thinkagram-ish image. A linkup would explain why the Jester is not Jack himself - the thinkamancer might be some angry fat man, and the combination of the two minds produces "Punch".

It would require Shmuckers that FAQ dont have lots of at the moment, but keeping Jillian from turning and/or spilling info to the enemy is kinda critical to FAQ's survival right now. Plus its just the kind of thing Jack would do.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Whispri » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:20 am

I think we know now why Janis thinks that Wanda "the pretty blonde will never hurt me" Firebaugh is loveless: Florists remind her of Olive.

0beron wrote:I'm interested by what the crown of thorns actually does mechanically speaking, since it must be some kind of magic item like the flowers.

As for the Ruler bit, I think people are reading into it too much in the sense of extrapolating things about Wanda and the like. Jillian simply means that if Banhammer had croaked, she would have noticed becoming a Ruler. What this does tell us however is that a Side's hierarchy remains in place even if they lose all their cities.

This update also showed us a great deal about the relationship between Olive and Wanda....I don't think they ever had the lovey dovey relationship Wanda hoped for when Olive was flirting with her.

I'd imagine it either stops Wanda from casting or from engaging. The latter is more likely, as it's a Florist thing.

Not if he was the last Unit in Faq's garrison to die. Far from an impossible scenario. Also, she used present tense, she claimed that: “I’m not a Ruler".

I felt at the time of the Kiloton debacle that anything they may have shared had been destroyed. But, it's not impossible they've shared something, it could be that Wanda just couldn't stop complaining about the evil and Olive got annoyed about that. Also, Olive appears to be the sort of woman who'll torture the messenger. Having said all that there's another thought that occurs. It could be that Olive's angry because she thinks Wanda's in love with Gillian. Wanda's condition could be the result of having an abusive girlfriend combined with all the horrible things she's been forced to do.

Refstg wrote:What's another name for a Jester?

Ummmmmmmm...... Harlequin?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby vintermann » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:51 am

It seems pretty clear now that Haffaton at one point had a turnamancer called Tina, but lost her. Tina made the boat Jillian stole on her escape, and possibly the torture sarcophagus as well. The only turnamancer we've seen so far is Vanna, who seems a very "white" mage, a turnamancer of the charm person variety. But there's no reason turnamancers can't be of the nasty torture kind either - after all, what's love got to do with it? (sorry)

Morni wrote:
or they never found out where FAQ was..


They most certainly did. They had the very same bonsai trees as the court of Faq. No matter what she said when drugged, Jillian wouldn't have been able to describe these accurately enough for someone to make a perfect copy (and we know they can't just read her mind).

Orzel wrote:
And Olive is probably mad at Wanda as they most likely lost a lot of unled Uncroaked taking Faq.


Not likely. The strategy of having a caster lead her special unit type for the bonuses is a desperate one, which didn't even occur to Goodminton until (desperate) Wanda suggested it. If Haffaton uses uncroaked for attacks, they almost certainly don't let Wanda lead them.

Arky wrote:
Well, well. Olive isn't as serenely in control of everything as it looks. To burn an asset like Wanda because of an I-told-you-so is, well, Stanley-ish. Something has gone seriously wrong for Olive other than just not having finished off FAQ yet.


Yes, and when Wanda is right about something... my immediate thought is that it has something to do with predictamancy. This time, it's Olive who's trying to find an exploit, work around a prediction by turning Jillian. Wanda is telling her it won't work. That's why she gets so uncharacteristically angry (yes, we've seen enough of her to know it's not characteristic) at Wanda when it turns out she was right.

ftl said:
BTW, I think if turning is important to Haffaton, that may also be how they subsisted for so long with such a huge empire - they turn and capture lots of units!


They definitively had a turnamancer, but I don't see how Tina would have fit into their strategy. They still have to pay upkeep for turned units. Olive's "see? We don't need Tina" may be an indication that Tina was disbanded after making the sarcophagus, to save on costs.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby teratorn » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:27 am

Haffaton isn't necessarily impoverished. The scarcity of live units might be part of their strategy. They might have turned most of their production to units they can harvest, that was one of the exploits parson talked about. With constant warfare to replenish their uncroaked they don't need to make that many live units. Jillian is quite a catch, a high-level warlord to boost their uncroaked forces means they can expand even further.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Orzel » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:44 am

vintermann wrote:Orzel wrote:
And Olive is probably mad at Wanda as they most likely lost a lot of unled Uncroaked taking Faq.


Not likely. The strategy of having a caster lead her special unit type for the bonuses is a desperate one, which didn't even occur to Goodminton until (desperate) Wanda suggested it. If Haffaton uses uncroaked for attacks, they almost certainly don't let Wanda lead them.


This is then really cemented the idea that Haffaton doesn't produce unit anymore. They must rely on turned warlords, caster created units, and traps to defend their vast territory. This would make Haffaton like Faq as they both do not take cites with their popped units anymore (Faq being a mercenary side and Haffaton being a passive expansionist side).

Now what Haffaton spends its smuckers on, is a mystery to me.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby wrecan » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:31 am

Radagast wrote:I already thought that the jester was Charlie. I think it's even more obvious now. Similar dramatic flair.

If you're right, I imagine he would appear to Jillian is Charlie Carioli, one of the most famous clowns on the 20th century.
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Orzel wrote:Now what Haffaton spends its smuckers on, is a mystery to me.

They probably have to spend every schmucker they earn simply paying for the upkeep of the units they already have, with nothing left over to pay to create new units.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby splexis » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:30 am

Grammar error in the new update:

"Something about all the shimmering green made her wretch."

Should be "retch" (in Stupidworld English). Possibly "wetch" in Erfworld Language.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:42 am

heyduck wrote:I think the court is [has] to forage now that the treasury's gone.

I believe that in Jillian's original plan she accounted for a huge sum being carried in all the command units' Purses. IIRC, she even calculated that they had enough commanders to bring the entire treasury.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby kiyote » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:14 am

Yeah, this update confirms that Olive is a psychopath, but then again, she would have to be to be level 12. By this point, it's clear that Erfworld puts a lot more emphasis on fighting for leveling than any other way. IIRC, for Artimis to level from 6 to 7, it took 640 turns of constant training. Even level 10 warlords, who spend all of their time fighting, are rare. For Olive to be 12, she had to be going out of her way to personally croak any enemy units she could get her vines around for thousands upon thousands of terms. Not the signamancy of a well adjusted individual...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby goldenboy » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:23 am

At this point I wonder if Jillian could walk through a portal.

What I mean is, she starts to remind me of Parson. A warlord with something extra, but I can't put my finger on what "something" is.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby gobe » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:10 am

Lamech wrote:
Tathar wrote:
Radagast wrote:This is definitely one of those funny updates that are awesome in the long run but in the short term leave more questions than answers!

Another interesting thing - a unit can promote to Ruler even while a prisoner. So this maybe adds more to the previous discussions about whether or not Wanda is still an "heir" - she may in fact still be a "ruler" type unit, even if she is on another side at the time.


By that logic, Wanda would still be a "ruler" type unit in GK.

Indeed, this is going to become important soon back in the comic proper I suspect. Also that rulers can belong to another side. Or does capturing a ruler turn the whole side?


I disagree with all of this. A prisoner is something fundamentally different from a turned unit. A prisoner is still a member of its side for many purposes. A turned unit is entirely part of a new side, with everything this involves, including taking its place among that side's hierarchy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby youngstormlord » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:48 pm

Orzel wrote:
vintermann wrote:Orzel wrote:
And Olive is probably mad at Wanda as they most likely lost a lot of unled Uncroaked taking Faq.


Not likely. The strategy of having a caster lead her special unit type for the bonuses is a desperate one, which didn't even occur to Goodminton until (desperate) Wanda suggested it. If Haffaton uses uncroaked for attacks, they almost certainly don't let Wanda lead them.


This is then really cemented the idea that Haffaton doesn't produce unit anymore. They must rely on turned warlords, caster created units, and traps to defend their vast territory. This would make Haffaton like Faq as they both do not take cites with their popped units anymore (Faq being a mercenary side and Haffaton being a passive expansionist side).

Now what Haffaton spends its smuckers on, is a mystery to me.


On drugs. That's what Haffaton is spending it's money on. Let's see Jill's first meeting with them: http://www.erfworld.com/2012/03/inner-peace-through-superior-firepower-%E2%80%93-episode-028/

The Faq contingent tensed. A warlord in Haffaton's black and white livery led a band of High Elves into view. They moved in a scattered formation toward the small clearing below.

The warlord had a short sword at his belt, sheathed. He was singing brightly,

...

The Haffaton warlord was gaunt and tall, wearing furs of some sort, and striding over the pine needles in step with his song. He looked right up at Jillian, not pausing his approach or his tune. He smiled at her, with a strange light in his eyes. "Titans open up that door. Haffaton, yeah! Titans know the final score. Haf-fa-to-on, yeah!"

The High Elf musicians brought the song to a conclusion with a little flourish and "brappity thump" of the hand drum. The enemy troops formed ranks behind their leader, with the elves grouped in a loose clump, looking up. The warlord touched his fingertips to his heart and showed his palms to Jillian with a confident smile.

...

His posture was easy, and his eyes twinkled with confidence. Jillian liked to think she was cool even when outnumbered, but this man eyes were not even taking stock of his opponent's contingent. Her own sharp eyes caught the fact that his little weapon was not merely sheathed...

No, he had just walked up to a large nest of enemy heavies and warlords without even unbuckling his sword.

Walked in singing.

...

As he spoke, his bright teeth always showed, and his eyes twinkled with an absolute faith in...something. Jillian couldn't imagine what. She was a Level 7 Chief Warlord, and she had a Level 6 and a 2 under her command. This man was a Level 4, and she was scared to dust of him.


High elves as natural allies. Probably a turned warlord that is utterly without fear, with his eyes sparkling. Are flowers a type of golem unit, that you have to pay upkeep for? Or is keeping drugged prisoner more expensive than keeping prisoner that is alert because of lesser possibility to escape compared to the one that is not drugged? What about drugged and utterly fearless warlords? Is there a plant that activates berserking in units, increasing their attack and defense but causing them to attack every hostile in the hex?

I wonder... What are the limits of flower power? I wish to know more about it's effects.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:20 pm

goldenboy wrote:At this point I wonder if Jillian could walk through a portal.

What I mean is, she starts to remind me of Parson. A warlord with something extra, but I can't put my finger on what "something" is.
I was thinking sort of the same thing. Do you suppose that the reason she doesn't think much of magic is because she resents not being able to learn it?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby SNfinity » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:14 pm

What if Jillian sent the coordinates of Haffaton City, and it was already taken? The capitol could have been moved, possibly to Efbaum, and Banhammer and co. could be on their way right now. That could make Olive a little cranky...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby goldenboy » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:42 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
goldenboy wrote:At this point I wonder if Jillian could walk through a portal.

What I mean is, she starts to remind me of Parson. A warlord with something extra, but I can't put my finger on what "something" is.
I was thinking sort of the same thing. Do you suppose that the reason she doesn't think much of magic is because she resents not being able to learn it?


I would think it typical for Jillian to sneer at anything she isn't good at by default, including magic, just as a defense mechanism.

Not sure if any old Erf unit would "see the matrix" like that if drugged, or if that signifies some sort of untapped natural gift of Jill's. What kind of stats are there that we don't yet know about? At least we know that powerful casters *can* practice other magic than their primary one. Who knows what else is possible. Non-casters walking through portals, for instance. Because of what?

Perhaps people just die to the portals because they so strongly believe they must? Perhaps non-casters just don't look into magic because it never occurred to them to question the rules?

Perhaps the rules can be broken if someone wills it strongly enough, or gets pissed off enough. And that's where I see a parallel between Jill and end-of-Book-1 Parson. If anyone from Erf can break a rule, my shmuckers are on Jill.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Lamech » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:50 pm

goldenboy wrote:Perhaps people just die to the portals because they so strongly believe they must? Perhaps non-casters just don't look into magic because it never occurred to them to question the rules?

I do wonder what normal units can get just by training. Artemis was able to train people into knights. Who apparently have different classes. So the difference between an infantry and a knight is training. So we know that training can turn infantry into... a better class of infantry? Not just a higher level. Sort of parallels casters with their classes. I do wonder if a warlord or infantry could learn enough magic to become a novice class caster. Or maybe an archon class. Or maybe even learn the archery special, or scouting special. Could they get a courtiers special and become a better manager?

That said, I suspect it would be hard for a warlord to learn to caster. Wanda can at least attempt things like hat magic since she has juice and knows the basics of casting. A warlord OTOH starts with none of that. They need to learn enough about magic without actually using any to get a new caster class. And getting a new caster class is pretty hard even for a caster. See Sizemore and his hippiemancy. I personally would start with teaching them specials like dance fighting and archery.

Third note: I suspect the way upkeep works it would actually be pretty stupid to teach a warlord magic. Look at Parson, his upkeep jumped by 120ish IIRC just from getting to become a field unit. I bet it acted as a multiplier on his upkeep. I think it would be more cost effective to train infantry if its possible at all.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby joosy » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:51 pm

I believe that the jester is merely a subconscious manifestation of Jillian's sense of Duty. If Jack or the other FAQ casters could communicate with her I doubt it would be so subtle. Plus, any of his admonitions, warnings, and orders are those that she SHOULD be doing if she wasn't under the influence.

Also, this is a game like world. It is the opposite of when we play an RPG. We roll the dice and imagine what is happening. In Erf, they see a real world and the dice/stats/etc. are known but 'imaginary'. So far the description of what takes place in a battle by Dice Clay does the best of describing the 'game like mechanics' that are otherwise invisible to Erfians. When Jillian is under the influence she apparently can 'see' what is otherwise hidden to other Erf denizens. It is very much like how Neo sees the Matrix - not as the images but as raw data. (On a unrelated note, Cipher may have been a traitor, but his key role was to show Neo how to view the Matrix within it as the Operator did without.)

I think my initial guess on this was correct: The court of Faq packs up and leaves on orders of Jillian, then Faq falls to Haffaton. King Banhammer and his court remain hidden and maintaining upkeep thanks to the combined efforts of the casters. They assume this fits the prediction of Faq falling but Banhammer somehow escapes his fate and Marie is somehow able to explain that away.

What happens next? Well, obviously, Jillian and Wanda take out Olive and Haffaton, Faq suddenly has all of these cities, they raze them all for the schmuckers and retreat back to Faq with no one the wiser and with the poison pill Wanda in their midst as well.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Azukar » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:55 pm

"You see that? We never needed Tina at all."

I think if Haffaton had Tina the Turner-mancer, she's croaked now, and Olive is somehow responsible for her croaking. So she's kind of proving to herself that she doesn't need a Turnamancer to turn Jillian.

Further evidenced by "Your failure and hers, Wand. Life conquers all". Turnamancy doesn't use Life, either.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby onlyme » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:04 pm

vintermann wrote:Orzel wrote:
And Olive is probably mad at Wanda as they most likely lost a lot of unled Uncroaked taking Faq.


Not likely. The strategy of having a caster lead her special unit type for the bonuses is a desperate one, which didn't even occur to Goodminton until (desperate) Wanda suggested it. If Haffaton uses uncroaked for attacks, they almost certainly don't let Wanda lead them.


Seems like even the things almost certainly not happening can happen. As we already know they let her:

Episode 028 wrote:Of course, the other thing she knew about Haffaton was that they had a very powerful Croakamancer who stayed in the field.
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