Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Zeku » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:34 pm

I'll concede that I'm still piecing together the exact nature, personality, status, timeline, etc, of these characters before they reached their comic book form. There's enough information missing that I'm actually thoroughly confused on a few points. But, this is desirable. It's exactly the right amount of information. The author is presenting a very particular perspective on events, and it's up to the reader to determine the rest. The amount that I fail to understand is exactly how much satisfaction I'll experience once I piece it all together.

The first few paragraphs were good, I like the various references to the Oz elements, even the artificial coloring of the movie. I'm not sure that Jillian is actually seeing the matrix code. It was the first thing I thought of, but it could be something else.

This is the first real reference to Wanda as a messiah, and author of eternal life. She is even suffering in a garden. It's a very nice deviation from what I was expecting for her, and I can't wait to see whether this is subverted, or played straight, or something else.

I think the jester is just Jillian's chaotic spirit, and he is most satisfied and in control when the prospect of ongoing mayhem presents itself.

Was Wanda wearing a flower while she was having her play sessions with Jillian? Is that why she's starving? Or is there another reason?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Lamech » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:09 pm

Zeku wrote:
This is the first real reference to Wanda as a messiah, and author of eternal life. She is even suffering in a garden. It's a very nice deviation from what I was expecting for her, and I can't wait to see whether this is subverted, or played straight, or something else.

Well it ends with her gaining the ability to provide resurrection and sufficient sustenance to all Erfworlders without the need for endless violence and an attempt to bring peace on Erf. I would say it gets played straight.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Zeku » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:02 pm

"I come not to bring peace, but a sword" (some guy)


And the only thing you have to sacrifice is your ambivalence towards her.

You could be right about this.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby bladestorm » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:37 pm

Maybe Olive got to level 12 by turning casters, forcing them to make objects that fulfilled that same/similar role, then personally croaked them. Or maybe something like a 1% residual experience of whatever her flower creations earn. Same could explain Sizemore's two levels by leeching xp from the golems that were slaying all sorts of opponents.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Housellama » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:03 pm

I'm pretty sure that the Jester is just Jillian's sanity... Which says something when a fool is the part of her that's supposed to be smart.

As far as the borders and numbers and stuff, I'm pretty sure she was experiencing what they would call an "expanded consciousness". Seeing the truth behind the truth, man. The Numbers that run the universe, the borders that the Man put up to keep us hemmed in, man! People have been smoking, snorting, injecting and eating strange things for eons to try to see beyond the veil of the reality around us. Jillian got a peek behind the scenes and she wasn't even looking for it.

As far as Olive goes, I'll resist saying I told you so. She's a stone cold sociopath, and she's booping good at it. I'd be willing to bet she knows that Jillian is lying. I'd be willing to bet that Wanda told her Jillian would lie. That's why Olive 'rewarded' Wanda with a crown of thorns and threw her down. Olive's hoping that when Jillian comes out of the haze of the pink flower and finds her former Mistress there helpless, Jillian will take care of Wanda for her, putting her out of Olive's misery.

I was wondering how this was going to play out. I've been expecting something like this since seeing Wanda-with-Haffaton's Signamancy. Even more so when Jillian ignored Delphi's message with the hat. Wanda couldn't have been happy. Now she's got even more incentive not to be happy.

Not lions and tigers and bears, but Wanda, Jillian and Judy, oh my!
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Smoker » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:08 pm

bladestorm wrote:Maybe Olive got to level 12 by ... a 1% residual experience of whatever her flower creations earn. Same could explain Sizemore's two levels by leeching xp from the golems that were slaying all sorts of opponents.


That is a very slick theory. I like it. It would also explain why Sizemore isn't level gazillion, since it seems he spent all his juice every turn making crap golems - he only gets XP if they see any action.
No, no. It hit him in the brain because it killed him. - Dante
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby kiyote » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:25 am

Smoker wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Maybe Olive got to level 12 by ... a 1% residual experience of whatever her flower creations earn. Same could explain Sizemore's two levels by leeching xp from the golems that were slaying all sorts of opponents.


That is a very slick theory. I like it. It would also explain why Sizemore isn't level gazillion, since it seems he spent all his juice every turn making crap golems - he only gets XP if they see any action.


There isn't much to prove it, but from what we know about Erfworld-mechanics so far, Sizemore probably gets a small nominal amount of XP for every golem he creates, and a much larger amount from any golem that croaks an enemy he's directly leading. He probably doesn't get any XP from any golems that he isn't currently stacked with (or maybe that are not in the same hex as him). I would think with the shear amount of crap golems he was spawning, he would be a much higher level before the BfGK, as his golems were probably being used in battle before Parson came, and his leveling wouldn't be such a huge deal.

I think that in Erfworld, units get experience points from situations they directly experience. It's one of those weird half-Stupidworld/half-RPG sort of things Erfworld loves. ;)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Lamech » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:43 am

Smoker wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Maybe Olive got to level 12 by ... a 1% residual experience of whatever her flower creations earn. Same could explain Sizemore's two levels by leeching xp from the golems that were slaying all sorts of opponents.


That is a very slick theory. I like it. It would also explain why Sizemore isn't level gazillion, since it seems he spent all his juice every turn making crap golems - he only gets XP if they see any action.

I suspect casters tend to get bigger chunks of experience whenever they do something that should be rareish. Wanda levels fairly quickly from uncroaking since she can't grind that without corpses. Sizemore gets a good chunk of experience from building cities since you generally don't spam city building. Something similar could be the case for Olive. She gets XP for tending her gardens and boosting farms. Which are now massive because of how Haffaton runs. So while florists were only balanced for a reasonable number of farms and gardens Olive is now getting XP from... well look at the field of pink flowers.

kiyote wrote:
Smoker wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Maybe Olive got to level 12 by ... a 1% residual experience of whatever her flower creations earn. Same could explain Sizemore's two levels by leeching xp from the golems that were slaying all sorts of opponents.


That is a very slick theory. I like it. It would also explain why Sizemore isn't level gazillion, since it seems he spent all his juice every turn making crap golems - he only gets XP if they see any action.


There isn't much to prove it, but from what we know about Erfworld-mechanics so far, Sizemore probably gets a small nominal amount of XP for every golem he creates, and a much larger amount from any golem that croaks an enemy he's directly leading. He probably doesn't get any XP from any golems that he isn't currently stacked with (or maybe that are not in the same hex as him). I would think with the shear amount of crap golems he was spawning, he would be a much higher level before the BfGK, as his golems were probably being used in battle before Parson came, and his leveling wouldn't be such a huge deal.

I think that in Erfworld, units get experience points from situations they directly experience. It's one of those weird half-Stupidworld/half-RPG sort of things Erfworld loves. ;)
I believe it was implied that warlords get XP for winning battles. Perhaps it is the same for casters.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby junovalkyrie » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:34 am

Whispri wrote:
0beron wrote:As for the Ruler bit, I think people are reading into it too much in the sense of extrapolating things about Wanda and the like. Jillian simply means that if Banhammer had croaked, she would have noticed becoming a Ruler. What this does tell us however is that a Side's hierarchy remains in place even if they lose all their cities.


Not if he was the last Unit in Faq's garrison to die. Far from an impossible scenario. Also, she used present tense, she claimed that: “I’m not a Ruler".


The evidence heavily suggests that Banhammer wasn't croaked until Stanley's invasion:

"You're thinking," said Stanley, "that Wanda set me up. But you're wrong. Because as soon as I started wailing on that city," Stanley snapped his fingers, and a little spark shot off the Arkenhammer and hit the ceiling, "boom. She turned. I'm wasting Faq guys down below, and she's uncroaking 'em and sending 'em into the tower to fight their own guys." He gestured with the hammer several times to indicate how violent and cool the battle was, once causing Zildjian to dodge. "She goes into the tower with a bunch of these guys, and then comes out into the courtyard with even more. Including, you ready?"

Zerbert nodded that he was ready.

"The King of Faq himself," grinned Stanley. "Yeah. It's pretty much over at that point, when you're fighting your own uncroaked ruler, haha! I mean they had an heir somewhere, but he was out in the field somewhere, out of the battlespace.


Given that we know Jillian was Banhammer's heir (and therefore would be the next in line for the throne), this has got to be Banhammer. The only alternative I can think of is that they popped a new heir when she was captured, Banhammer was croaked, and the new heir became ruler, with Jillian regaining heir status at some later point. Kind of convoluted, and also seemingly at odds with Jillian's description of the sacking of Faq where she speaks of Banhammer as if he was still the ruler at that point. And we know that she returned to Faq at some point since her stint in the Olive Garden from the update describing Jack and Wanda awaiting her return, so she ought to have been aware if there were a new ruler.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Avic » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:18 am

junovalkyrie wrote:The only alternative I can think of is that they popped a new heir when she was captured, Banhammer was croaked, and the new heir became ruler, with Jillian regaining heir status at some later point.


I know you're just throwing wild speculations out there, but according to http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F082.jpg , panel 3 specifically, both King Banhammer, Jillian's father, and Wanda were in Faq together before Stanley attacked, so the ruler that Wanda uncroaked was her father, the King.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:00 am

FaQ just lost all their cities.

Yet FaQ still endures.

Meaning it's proven again that a side can survive whitout cities as long as the ruler lives. :lol:

How many times must the author make that point clear to convince people around here geez? :D
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Nueamin » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:49 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:FaQ just lost all their cities.

Yet FaQ still endures.

Meaning it's proven again that a side can survive whitout cities as long as the ruler lives. :lol:

How many times must the author make that point clear to convince people around here geez? :D


When Wanda became ruler didn't all the units not stacked with her disband? If that part of my memory hasn't failed me (it might have) then that would mean yes a side can survive as long as the whole thing is stacked with the ruler. Doesn't leave many options but I suppose it does fit under the term survive. Of course Banhammer would have to pay for anyone's upkeep out of his purse and without any income. Can't be too many survivors.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby onlyme » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:52 am

Nueamin wrote:When Wanda became ruler didn't all the units not stacked with her disband? If that part of my memory hasn't failed me (it might have) then that would mean yes a side can survive as long as the whole thing is stacked with the ruler. Doesn't leave many options but I suppose it does fit under the term survive. Of course Banhammer would have to pay for anyone's upkeep out of his purse and without any income. Can't be too many survivors.


See Episose 032, where Jillian consider evacuation plans:
Episode 032 wrote:With so many commanders, they could distribute most of the treasury into individual purses, so unit upkeep could be maintained for oh, a dozen, two dozen turns, depending.


So it's two dozen turns for taking everyone from FAQ with them. With the King, the casters (all commands so all purses), Megalotiffs for the striking force Jillian let them prepere for the strike and only that striking force (perhaps minus one soldier to take the King with them) but without all the other normal units FAQ has, that should be quite a bit more. Plus the money for the recently raced city, that should be enough for at least three dozen turns.

So I guess that they still have some turns left before they run out of money.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby gobe » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:05 pm

Wanda-Jesus will have to resurrect first before she leads men away from death into eternal "peace".

Obviously, Wanda is dying, metaphorically (and from signamancy, obviously), and she will have to come back to life. How this resurrection will happen is what I'm really curious about. It seems from the prediction that it is Jillian who is fated to help her. I've very excited to see this play out.

Has anyone wondered about the 5 elements and if this is going to play a role? Air, earth, fire and water. I can't think of where those fit in, but I think it's an interesting thread.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Nueamin » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:31 pm

onlyme wrote:
So it's two dozen turns for taking everyone from FAQ with them. With the King, the casters (all commands so all purses), Megalotiffs for the striking force Jillian let them prepere for the strike and only that striking force (perhaps minus one soldier to take the King with them) but without all the other normal units FAQ has, that should be quite a bit more. Plus the money for the recently raced city, that should be enough for at least three dozen turns.

So I guess that they still have some turns left before they run out of money.


That episode has a lot of great information. Thank You.

In the escape plan Jillian described she implied that all 3 cities would be razed for funds otherwise each warlord wouldn't need schmuckers in their purse they could just use the treasury. The problem is in the current scenario these cities may have been conquered ant not raised by FAQ. If Banhammer followed Jillian's orders then they would have used most of Goodminton's sacking money, but there is a good chance that when they saw the force from Haffaton they jumped ship going somewhere and razing the 3 cities and would last a dozen or two dozen depending... on who knows what.

So a side can survive without cities, but for a relatively small amount of time without a secondary source of income.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Tathar » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:24 pm

Zeku wrote:This is the first real reference to Wanda as a messiah, and author of eternal life. She is even suffering in a garden. It's a very nice deviation from what I was expecting for her, and I can't wait to see whether this is subverted, or played straight, or something else.


Except that Sylvia Lazarus is a Wanda/messiah reference herself. The Decrypted are referred to as "popped again" too.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Lamech » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:20 am

gobe wrote:Wanda-Jesus will have to resurrect first before she leads men away from death into eternal "peace".

Obviously, Wanda is dying, metaphorically (and from signamancy, obviously), and she will have to come back to life. How this resurrection will happen is what I'm really curious about. It seems from the prediction that it is Jillian who is fated to help her. I've very excited to see this play out.

Has anyone wondered about the 5 elements and if this is going to play a role? Air, earth, fire and water. I can't think of where those fit in, but I think it's an interesting thread.

Lets see... actually doesn't Erf only have three elements? Life, Matter and Motion? Of course, if we are bringing four Mac Guffins together then those have to be the arkentools. Then hmm... the hammer is all three (carnies!), the arkenpliers is matter and motion. The arkendish is life and motion. That leaves... the signamancy tool. And of course, Jillian shall provide love. Now, what exactly is Wanda going to uber-blast? /fifth element plot.

Anyway, I suspect that Wanda's resurrection will be an actual resurrection. None of this bull metaphorical crap. Someone shoots Wanda in the face and then realizes, she's wielding an artifact that can raise the dead. Hmm... it would be doubly ironic if this gave Wanda the insight to truly give her decrypted eternal life.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Steve-D » Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:24 pm

My prediction is that Charlie will subtly intervene.

The Faq units will have left for the rendezvous, as ordered, waiting for the coordinates. Haffaton will reach the cities a few turns later and capture them.

When Jillian doesn't turn up at the rendezvous they'll get a message they'll assume is from her, giving them the coordinates of the Haffaton capital.

Thus, Haffaton will be destroyed, Wanda and Jillian will be rescued/taken back to Faq, and Charile will have had his revenge on an enemy who nearly killed him, and threatened his own empire. We still don't understand why Jillian ran into Archons, after all; for what other purpose were they in the story, apart from to announce Charlie's arrival on the scene?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Nakedkali » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:00 pm

Charlie is delaying revenge to make the maximum profit, of course. Don't bet on the second place guy until your sure shooting the first place guy is worth it (ie he can't pay you anymore). Vengeance is fine, but only if it makes you schmuckers.

There's a really beautiful, and much more ferociously thorny euphorb called Crown of Thorns. Pity Olive doesn't seem to know about it. Roses are kinda unsatisfactory in sheer pointy pokiness compared to it. As a bonus, the bloodred flowers of Crown of Thorns (showy as they are) are small and don't need to be removed before you can weave stems together.

We've seen Olive kill, so she's not averse to it. We've also seen her be cool and calculating under pressure. Was Tina killed? Is it possible for Judy the once-little-girl to issue disbanding orders in cold blood? It's odd that Olive is throwing these three together, even if it seems like she's just being angry.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) 052

Postby Neko » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:33 am

I'm curious - why does everyone think Tina Turnamancer is croaked? It's possible she's just not there "on screen". Haffaton's a huge place. She could just be off making more tricycle bears or Proud Mary paddlewheel riverboats.

Wanda prob looks worse off in this scene b/c Olive punished her for losing Jillian. And the Signamancy also indicates she's losing her will to resist. Like others, I'm VERY interested to see how the 5th Element reference plays out.
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