Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

[Nnelg]

A pleased grin sneaks its way onto Yuri's face, evincing much the same sense of satisfaction at his own success that would emerge from bodily yanking the intestines out of an enemy unit or enjoying the attentions of one of the turned elven girls. "Is needing that much for upgrading of city. And Queen is not offering petty numbers like taunt to new friends, or very large that could be using for winning wars of Ix. So needed number is not out of maybe range and is no reason not for asking."

Oh, is it? Well then...

Marbit, what Turn would this conversation take place on?

We should make a new timetable immediately.

[BLANDCorporatio]

O.o quick O.oC note, looks like we could, if we wanted to, pay Lolly that 1000Schm. gem now.

We don't want to. It doesn't gain us much.

Hey if it were by me Lolly would be croaked/captured by now, but K.C. decided to hold the military might away from that operation.

[Exate]

Oh, is it? Well then...

Marbit, what Turn would this conversation take place on?

We should make a new timetable immediately.

This is Turn 10.

[ETheBoyce]

Let's put this another way: A level 1 Heavy Warrior or Spearman can have 15 Combat, then he gets supported by 5 others next to him behind him, this gives him another 15, then you add in Leadership, then you can potentially add in more if any of his supporters took Skilled. He passed the "do damage" threshhold before we accounted for leadership, the Kitty can and will take damage from this level 1 Heavy, it could in fact, lose half of its hits. Not to mention the fact that they could have Gumps or Gumptions deployed, both of which will be deadlier now that they don't have to spend AP on combat mods.

That's because you're sending Cavalry at an Infantry Square! (Scissors -> Rock)


But seriously. There will always be a way to damage a unit. Just saying that it's possible isn't really a good argument against using it.

I mean, compare the Kitties with the other units in our army. The only ones whom even approach those stat levels are the Heavies. I fail to see how having two such powerful Squads could be a bad thing.

They are all infantry squares!

But the point is to minimize casualties which sending a single stack out against the entire enemy force will NOT do, this isn't medieval Europe, cavalry charges aren't more powerful than infantry charges, just faster. In fact they are potentially weaker as 4 Infantry get 4 attacks to a Mounted unit's 2

[Nnelg]

They are all infantry squares!

Not always. If they are, we can just go around them and charge the archers, or rush with AOE from bomb golems or shockamancy. Or pin them with our own infantry, and charge the flank.

But the point is to minimize casualties which sending a single stack out against the entire enemy force will NOT do,

Of course it won't. Where are you getting the idea that these guys would charge a superior enemy alone?

this isn't medieval Europe, cavalry charges aren't more powerful than infantry charges, just faster.

Naughty Kitties have higher combat, better defense, and more hits than infantry the same level... I'd say that's more powerful.

Besides, I wouldn't use these guys like Cavalry. I'd use them like Armor. (Although, Swodaems would be using them, not me.)

In fact they are potentially weaker as 4 Infantry get 4 attacks to a Mounted unit's 2

Um... This makes no sense. Both the Mount and the Rider get to attack...

If you're trying to say that you can fit more infantry in the same amount of space, that's only a disadvantage where space is restricted. Out in the open, it'd actually be better to present wider frontage.



All you have proven is that they won't be some sort of unbeatable Übermenschen. (Überkätzen?)

What would you rather have these guys do? Guard the casters? We can pop new Kitties for that. (Not that we really need to...)

[MarbitChow]

Witness Genius Diplomatic Logic In Action Below
A pleased grin sneaks its way onto Yuri's face, evincing much the same sense of satisfaction at his own success that would emerge from bodily yanking the intestines out of an enemy unit or enjoying the attentions of one of the turned elven girls. "Is needing that much for upgrading of city. And Queen is not offering petty numbers like taunt to new friends, or very large that could be using for winning wars of Ix. So needed number is not out of maybe range and is no reason not for asking."

The Queen's attention turns briefly to the King. "Everything you said about him seems accurate, Creperum." She turns back to Yuri, "We'll keep negotiating with the elves, and we'll do our best to make sure it looks like we'll break the cease-fire at the drop of a hat. If we weren't aware of your existence, to be honest, we would have had no idea why the Elves would have made the offer in the first place, and would probably have accepted it at face value. I don't know how many turns we'll be able to buy you, but we'll keep them guessing as long as we can. I'll get you those coordinates in a couple of turns, once I've confirmed that the envoy's progress is what I anticipated."

[Exate]

The Queen's attention turns briefly to the King. "Everything you said about him seems accurate, Creperum." She turns back to Yuri, "We'll keep negotiating with the elves, and we'll do our best to make sure it looks like we'll break the cease-fire at the drop of a hat. If we weren't aware of your existence, to be honest, we would have had no idea why the Elves would have made the offer in the first place, and would probably have accepted it at face value. I don't know how many turns we'll be able to buy you, but we'll keep them guessing as long as we can. I'll get you those coordinates in a couple of turns, once I've confirmed that the envoy's progress is what I anticipated."

Yuri's Unstoppable Ambassadorial Brilliance Continues
"Is having thanks for Maude Queen, and is happy to help with existing. Elf breathers paying much for shorter peace than is wanted at endings is best of tales." The massive man laughs uproariously, his guttural chuckles echoing from the walls about him. "And if Ix is having more of things for giving or trading, Tenebris is keen with listening to friends' trouble. Is having many casters for workings, perhaps, or making other dealings in turns yet coming." With a wave of his meaty hand, Yuri dismisses that. "Only one more thing for talkings now, unless Queen is wishing for others. Tenebris must know of other sides near elfs for speakings, if Ix is knowing any."

[MarbitChow]

"Only one more thing for talkings now, unless Queen is wishing for others. Tenebris must know of other sides near elfs for speakings, if Ix is knowing any."

The Queen nods. "There are a few small sides around us, but I'm afraid I must refrain from introductions until they've agreed to allow us to release the information. Knowing how long it takes for them to commit to any action, that could take many turns. The only side I feel I'm in a position to discuss with you currently is a smallish side called Jetstone, but they seem to have already allied with the Elves. King Slately is in charge there. I hope you have some success; the elves have already 'warned' Slately about the dangers of listening to the 'treacherous Ixians', it seems. Fare well, Yuri. It was a pleasure conversing with you."

[Exate]

The Queen nods. "There are a few small sides around us, but I'm afraid I must refrain from introductions until they've agreed to allow us to release the information. Knowing how long it takes for them to commit to any action, that could take many turns. The only side I feel I'm in a position to discuss with you currently is a smallish side called Jetstone, but they seem to have already allied with the Elves. King Slately is in charge there. I hope you have some success; the elves have already 'warned' Slately about the dangers of listening to the 'treacherous Ixians', it seems. Fare well, Yuri. It was a pleasure conversing with you."

Massive Diplomatic Success Concludes
Yuri gives a wide-toothed smile as the call concludes. "Queen is giving much pleasure to me also. Is talking other times."

As King Creperum has control of the call, does he end it, or have closing comments, or cut out the Ixian Queen first and go over the results of the call with Yuri?

[MarbitChow]

As King Creperum has control of the call, does he end it, or have closing comments, or cut out the Ixian Queen first and go over the results of the call with Yuri?

The King always removes the other side from the call and keeps the connection with you in case there's anything you wish to discuss.

[Exate]

As King Creperum has control of the call, does he end it, or have closing comments, or cut out the Ixian Queen first and go over the results of the call with Yuri?

The King always removes the other side from the call and keeps the connection with you in case there's anything you wish to discuss.

Man, the King isn't really into taking charge, is he? Yuri's comments are basically "that went well" and a positive impression of the Queen, plus a note that we'll need to tell Tod to allocate some troops for escort duty in a few turns. Nothing exciting- it's the King I would expect to have things to discuss, since he is ultimately the one giving orders here.

[Nnelg]

So, if we upgrade Dis City now, money's going to be a bit tight. We'll have to do some calculations to make sure we don't go overboard with the Gobwin popping. But according to my calculations, our income should be ☼1620/Turn after accounting for the upkeep of units we already possess. The treasury should contain ☼1420 after we upgrade Dis City. That comes out to ☼12760 overall by Turn 17, not counting anything we might get for mining or foraging.

Note: If any of those gems we get from Ix happen to be worth ☼1000, we should hold on to it. Just in case.
(As long as the treasury never dips below ☼1k, I guess we can just assume it's still in our possession.)


Anyways, so new timetable:

Spoiler: show

10: Dis City upgrades to level 4.
11: ?
12: New Batch arrives in Tenebris. Gobwin miners are popped there. Nemo, Fort, Sto, and Rudy get a Balrug ride to Dis City. Gobwin Craftsmen are popped there. Tenebris pops Naughty Kitties.
13: Tenebris pops Naughty Kitties. Regus, Zed-Too, Anex, Melissa, and the four new NKs embark for Logan's Run (ETA Turn 17). Army at Dis City embarks for Logan's Run (ETA Turn 17).
14-16: ?
17: Regus' company links up with rest of Battalion. Attack on Logan's Run commences.

[ETheBoyce]

Not always. If they are, we can just go around them and charge the archers, or rush with AOE from bomb golems or shockamancy. Or pin them with our own infantry, and charge the flank.

All of which we can do with infantry, in fact outside of speed infantry would do it better.

Of course it won't. Where are you getting the idea that these guys would charge a superior enemy alone?

From you:

The Cossacks will use their higher movement to get into melee as quick as possible, where they can cream the opposition.

Naughty Kitties have higher combat, better defense, and more hits than infantry the same level... I'd say that's more powerful.

Only if the infantry have no AP to spend, Purchasing Heavy or Dance Fighting/Beefy/Well Protected puts a Level 1 Warrior on par with a Kitty, at level 2 a Heavy will surpass a Kitty's Combat Stats.

Besides, I wouldn't use these guys like Cavalry. I'd use them like Armor. (Although, Swodaems would be using them, not me.)

What exactly does that mean? Because it sounds nothing like your "They'll charge the enemy" strategy

Um... This makes no sense. Both the Mount and the Rider get to attack...

If you're trying to say that you can fit more infantry in the same amount of space, that's only a disadvantage where space is restricted. Out in the open, it'd actually be better to present wider frontage.

How does it not make sense? 2 attacks clearly means the Rider and the Mount each getting an attack, and presenting a wider front would only be useful if there is an Enemy Shockamancer, otherwise there is little reason to split our forces up, unless you want individual units to get shot full of arrows

All you have proven is that they won't be some sort of unbeatable Übermenschen. (Überkätzen?)

What would you rather have these guys do? Guard the casters? We can pop new Kitties for that. (Not that we really need to...)

Why yes guarding casters/leadership would be a much better use of our limited Kitty resources, in a siege enemy archers will be able to target casters, and who they hit is determined by GM so I don't feel like chancing my Glass Cannon to help take a City when he could easily get killed by a stray arrow. Or you could put Warriors on them and do a formation like I suggested above to create a line of death.

[Nnelg]

This is getting a bit tiresome, don't you think?

Spoiler: show

All of which we can do with infantry, in fact outside of speed infantry would do it better.

Of course Infantry is better against massed targets. I wouldn't expect anything different.

But where speed really helps is maneuvering. The Kitties can run around the flank of the enemy, and either charge the enemy in the rear, or take out his archers. Those are things infantry can't do.

Of course it won't. Where are you getting the idea that these guys would charge a superior enemy alone?

From you:

The Cossacks will use their higher movement to get into melee as quick as possible, where they can cream the opposition.

That doesn't mean they need to be stupid about it.

Odds are, there will be infantry just one Round behind them. If there isn't, and they can't handle the enemy on their own, they simply won't charge.

Naughty Kitties have higher combat, better defense, and more hits than infantry the same level... I'd say that's more powerful.

Only if the infantry have no AP to spend, Purchasing Heavy or Dance Fighting/Beefy/Well Protected puts a Level 1 Warrior on par with a Kitty, at level 2 a Heavy will surpass a Kitty's Combat Stats.

He'll pass a level 1's combat stats. At level 2, the Kitties can take Imprinted, giving them +4 Combat / +4 Defense, and putting them on par with/superior to the infantry again. Besides, infantry doesn't always take Heavy.

Besides, I wouldn't use these guys like Cavalry. I'd use them like Armor. (Although, Swodaems would be using them, not me.)

What exactly does that mean? Because it sounds nothing like your "They'll charge the enemy" strategy

I would use this Squad the way I would use tanks: spearheading the advance of infantry. Although, you have made fair points about their durability being less than I thought it was, so perhaps cavalry-style tactics are in order, after all...

Either way, I wouldn't even think of using them outside of combined-arms tactics unless faced with a clearly inferior enemy (like archers, or unsupported infantry that didn't take heavy).

presenting a wider front would only be useful if there is an Enemy Shockamancer, otherwise there is little reason to split our forces up, unless you want individual units to get shot full of arrows

The Kitties would be able to present a wider front than the infantry, without having to split their forces up. This will be useful as battlefields become more open (Marbit said hexes were going to get bigger) since it becomes harder to go around the flank. And it become easier for us to envelop the enemy...

All you have proven is that they won't be some sort of unbeatable Übermenschen. (Überkätzen?)

What would you rather have these guys do? Guard the casters? We can pop new Kitties for that. (Not that we really need to...)

Why yes guarding casters/leadership would be a much better use of our limited Kitty resources,

Limited? We could have eight more ride in from Tenebris if we wanted! If they left on Turn 13, they'd make it in time for the Battle of Logan's Run.

In fact, they're the only thing that could make it from Tenebris to Logan's Run in time for the battle...

in a siege enemy archers will be able to target casters, and who they hit is determined by GM so I don't feel like chancing my Glass Cannon to help take a City when he could easily get killed by a stray arrow.

I don't think Marbit's going to be vindictive about it. If there's one caster in a squad with seven warriors, I doubt he'll receive more than one arrow at a time. Bodyguards can take care of that. (Plus, they cost half the UP to pop, and we can pop Gobwin bodyguards, and we've got loads of infantry to do it with... Not to say that we should rely entirely on Bodyguards, just that we could if we wanted to.)

Or you could put Warriors on them and do a formation like I suggested above to create a line of death.

[/quote]
And then you lose the ability to hit units in the back rank. If my formation charged your formation (assuming we had equal forces), the first thing to die would be your unmounted spearmen. And they couldn't come up behind a single line of heavies, and hit the front rank. Or use hit-and-run with the spears hitting 2 Squares away, such that they'd do damage without ever being hit.

Look, if you're worried about the casters, Tenebris can pop new Kitties sometime during Turns 10-13 and we'll have 4-8 new mounts in time for the Battle. Since the casters' mounts won't be on the front lines, it would be better to use the new ones for them, correct? If worst comes to worst, Nemo can Baffle the casters and they won't get shot at anymore.


Thanks to your examples, I understand now that the Cossacks would never be as powerful in melee as an equivalent-level squad of infantry Heavies. But they don't need to be. Their true power lies in mobility.

I mean, just look at all the mount-only abilities Marbit added! Dressage, Leaper, repeated Swifts... By level 4, they'll be able to get practically anywhere on the battlefield they want! Including next to the enemy's archers, or the rear of his infantry... They could even hunt scouts or harass enemy armies before they reached our cities! (Although, for that they'd need a leader other than Tod... Perhaps Regus?) And if Nemo made them invisible...


So, humor me, why not? We have the resources. We only have so many casters and leaders, after all. And the leaders can make do with a single bodyguard (or even none) now that archery can't pick them out.

Regardless of Combat Modifiers, 18+ Combat and 24+ Defense aren't something to be sneered at. They aren't going to be wasted units. If nothing else, we can use them for armored recon. And... They'll help run down retreating units.

And if Tod doesn't want to lead them, we can use Regus.

[ETheBoyce]

You seem to think getting behind the enemy provides any sort of advantage, facing means nothing so the only thing getting behind infantry will do is to separate our forces allowing our enemy to retreat from the rest of our forces and hack our cats to bits. I will say again that flanking provides very little purpose as units attacking from the side/behind gain no advantage, and if the enemy knows we have mounted units deployed they won't leave their squishies unguarded, in fact the only reason a Defending enemy would have any reason to move towards the Attacker is if the Defender has lost its Archery, in which case they're probably already doomed. I say our Kitty resources are limited because we only have so much UP per turn and only so many turns before the next Elven counter-attack and I, for one, think we're going to need Archer and Siege not more mobile infantry, so it makes far more sense to use the Kitties we have to bolster our most important troops. That said, since Archers lose range trying to attack higher target, Coil on a Bad Ass can Siege without worries <_<

[Nnelg]

Starting Treasury: 8200

Tenebris Income: 6600 (includes Regent bonus)
Tenebris Upkeep: 6000
Dis City Income: 1980 (includes Regent bonus)
Dis City Upkeep: 2560
Farms & Mines: 200
Player Upkeep: 2800

Delta: 220

Final Treasury: 8420

[...]

Let me know what corrections are required.

Um, Marbit? I think your calculations are off somewhere... I'm getting a net income of ☼(-2580) using your income and upkeep numbers. That's too much for even the increased income of a Level 4 Dis City to offset.

[Nnelg]

Oh boy, aren't we long-winded?

Spoiler: show

You seem to think getting behind the enemy provides any sort of advantage, facing means nothing

I know that. Flanking doesn't need a modifier to provide an advantage. (It's one of those "Universal Truth of Warfare" things. See my arguments below.)

so the only thing getting behind infantry will do is to separate our forces allowing our enemy to retreat from the rest of our forces and hack our cats to bits.

No, the Kitties will prevent the enemy from retreating. The enemy will be caught in a vice between our infantry in the front, and the Kitties in the rear. If they choose to use that tactic instead of the numerous others available to them, that is. (Which is to say, they'll only do that when it would be effective. If it wouldn't be effective, they'd find something else to do instead.)

I will say again that flanking provides very little purpose as units attacking from the side/behind gain no advantage,

It gains us an advantage if the enemy sets up their Squads with High-Defense Warriors in front, High-Attack Spearmen in rear. We'd be hitting their Glass Cannons first, denying them the benefit of formation. (Not as in some sort of "Formation Modifier", but the more intangible yet ever-essential tactical benefit of having damage be distributed as desired.)

(And yes, I know it only takes 1 move to change formation/facing. But a Squad of 50/50 Warriors/Spearmen can't face every direction at once, and the Kitties aren't our only forces on the battlefield.)

and if the enemy knows we have mounted units deployed they won't leave their squishies unguarded,

Unless the enemy greatly outnumbers us, they can't be everywhere at once. And the Kitties' faster Move means they can move to an unguarded opening faster than the enemy can plug it.

Provided, of course, that the enemy sees the Kitties coming...

in fact the only reason a Defending enemy would have any reason to move towards the Attacker is if the Defender has lost its Archery,

Um, flat-out wrong. They'd want to move towards the enemy because of enemy archery. Once they get into contact with an enemy unit, the archers can't Fire at them. So the safest thing for Melee troops to do on an archer-heavy battlefield is to close with the enemy as fast as possible.

I say our Kitty resources are limited because we only have so much UP per turn and only so many turns before the next Elven counter-attack

Kitties are pretty much the only thing that Tenebris can pop that will make it to Logan's Run in time. (Yes, I know the are exceptions to this.)

and I, for one, think we're going to need Archer and Siege not more mobile infantry,

You say that now...

so it makes far more sense to use the Kitties we have to bolster our most important troops.

Exactly. We should bolster our infantry by giving them some mobile support.

Spoiler: show

I think you're being inflexible.

The rules have changed. The game is undergoing a paradigm shift. You're still thinking in terms of Skirmish-Level Tactics, while I'm thinking of Squad-Level Tactics. "More of the same" is no longer sufficient. We need Squads that can fill more 'esoteric' roles now, because those jobs will need to be done, eventually. And when we need Cavalry, if we don't have it... (Actually this has already happened, kinda, with Armolad. What was missing then was an airmobile response force, though.)

Besides, cavalry only needs one-third the warding of infantry (since a rider doesn't need a ward, and the mount takes the UP of two infantry units).

Um, I still don't see why we're arguing so much over this.

I'd like to hear what some of the others (especially Swodaems) think of the issue. Also whether Tod would be leading that Squad (if we do form it), or if we'd give it to Regus or someone else, even.

[WhirdCheese]

I say that if you feel the need to continue argueing about the validity of Cavalry move it to the strategy thread.

Can we figure out what we're throwing at Logan's Run already? How many weeks have we spent bickering after the two groups got grouped into 'Tenebris Unleashed' about how we're grouping? Can we just get a picture of Logan's run through our scouts figure out what we're popping and start the attack?

EDIT: And since I'm already ranting would it be possible to start some mercenary work? We have three dedicated mercs along with zed two. That's more than enough to get started. Although I wouldn't mind at least one NPC to take leadership.

[Nnelg]

Ok, as soon as Marbit gets back on the income issue, this is the format I propose to submit the timetable in:

Turn ##:

Spoiler: show

City Orders:

Tenebris:
Popping: ???
Gobwins: Nothing.

Dis City:
Popping: ???
Gobwins: Nothing.


Unit Orders:

Rolf (Werebiscuit): ???
William Showend Tell (BLANDCorporatio): ???
Cupid (HerbieRai): ???
Yuri (Exate): ???
T. Coil (ETheBoyce): ???
Bill (The Colonel): ???
Tod (Swodaems): ???
Triage (WaterMonkey314): ???
Vinny Starcall (0beron): ???
Brick Wall (Lord of Monies): ???
Nemo (Nnelg): ???
Rudy Eye (bob the 6th): ???
Fortunes Chance (WhirdCheese): ???
Donovan (CroverusRaven): ???
Zed-Too (BLANDCorporatio): ???
Anex (Werebiscuit): ???
Junetta: ???
~unit: ???
~unit: ???
~unit: ???


Finances:

Initial Treasury: ☼#,###

Gross Basic Income: ☼10,320
Preexisting Upkeep: ☼11,360
Net Basic Income: ☼(-1,040)

Gobwin Popping Costs:
Tenebris: ☼###
Dis City: ☼###
Total: ☼###

New Unit Upkeep:

~Location:
~unit - ☼###
~unit - ☼###

~Location:
~unit - ☼###
~unit - ☼###

Total New Unit Upkeep: ☼#,###

Overall Net Income: ☼#,###

Final Treasury: ☼#,###

So, any concerns?

(I purposefully left out anything determined by the GM, such as Karma and income from Mining and Foraging. I figured we should plan on being able to support everything just with set incomes if possible, and consider Mining/Foraging as a "bonus".)

[ETheBoyce]

The rules have, in fact, not changed anywhere near enough to qualify as a paradigm shift, and if they have your plan runs counter to the change. Epic-Scale combat means large numbers of units which in Erfworld means massed infantry as they are the only kind of unit that pops in great numbers (outside of scouts) and Universal Truths of Warfare cease to be True when the warfare they are based on no longer applies, this isn't Warfare as any Earth General knows it. Further the idea of getting behind an enemy is itself flawed, an enemy force can just press itself against a hex boundary and then there's no flanking or getting behind them, and our infantry are, in fact, our least important unit type which is why they are so easily replaced