Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby 0beron » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:16 pm

*yawns*
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby Nnelg » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:20 pm

WhirdCheese wrote:I say that if you feel the need to continue argueing about the validity of Cavalry move it to the strategy thread.

For now, this is the strategy thread. Until the game comes out of down-time, and the attack on Logan's Run begins, there's not much to do here besides discuss strategy.

(Although technically speaking, we're arguing Tactics at the moment. We've already decided our Strategy is to attack Logan's Run as soon as we can. And I'm trying to work on the Logistics of managing everything.)


WhirdCheese wrote:Can we figure out what we're throwing at Logan's Run already? How many weeks have we spent bickering after the two groups got grouped into 'Tenebris Unleashed' about how we're grouping? Can we just get a picture of Logan's run through our scouts figure out what we're popping and start the attack?

That's what we've been doing. :P

There's a lot of stuff that has to be sorted out for the new version, and it's all tangled. I've been trying to get things a bit more organized myself, although there hasn't been much progress.


[/quote]EDIT: And since I'm already ranting would it be possible to start some mercenary work? We have three dedicated mercs along with zed two. That's more than enough to get started. Although I wouldn't mind at least one NPC to take leadership.[/quote]
It looks like we're going to have a surplus of Lvl. 2 units with Leadership, so you may be able to grab one of them.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby Nnelg » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:24 pm

0beron wrote:*yawns*

Actually, 0beron, I need your help with this. I need a record of what Items and Golems are crafted by Vinny Turns 10-16. (Include any preexisting Golems on the roster.)

Just as a heads-up, though, last word from Marbit said you'd need a dedicated Artisan for each Golem you crafted a turn after the first. So you won't be able to craft multiple Golems until Turn 12, when Sto arrives in Dis City.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:33 pm

I'll go straight ahead and assume that 0beron's yawn was caused by something summarized here-

Nnelg wrote:For now, this is the strategy thread. Until the game comes out of down-time, and the attack on Logan's Run begins, there's not much to do here besides discuss strategy.


And I agree with WhyrdCheese, this -is- ridiculous. When is this game actually going to be, ya know, played?

Thank goodness that Yuri's Masterful Diplomacy at least keeps the plot wheels turning coz otherwise there'd be diddly squat. Long bloviations on optimal strategy do not count as gameplay. Their length far exceeds any justifications in terms of selecting good play, and the amount of bureaucracy that is creeping into this game under the influence of Nnelg is tedious.

If people have a score to settle as to what strategy is best, here's my 2 cents. Let them have their small army, each, and organize as they see fit. Seems that we're going that route anyway. It will be up to poor Tod to somehow allocate the pop resources while somehow miraculously avoiding the political wrangling that army branches will subject him to. Kinda like real life, but why does this have to be an emulation of that.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby Nnelg » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:59 pm

Spoiler: show
ETheBoyce wrote:The rules have, in fact, not changed anywhere near enough to qualify as a paradigm shift, and if they have your plan runs counter to the change. Epic-Scale combat means large numbers of units which in Erfworld means massed infantry as they are the only kind of unit that pops in great numbers (outside of scouts)

...

Just take my word for it. :|


ETheBoyce wrote:Universal Truths of Warfare cease to be True when the warfare they are based on no longer applies, this isn't Warfare as any Earth General knows it.

I said "Universal" because they transcend the rules and the medium. They apply (in different forms and degrees) to real wars, wargames, RTSs, RPGs, the TBSs that Erfworld is based on, Chess... Boop, I could even apply some of them to Monopoly!

They're based mainly on pure logic, I think, so changing the rules only changes which ones apply to what extent. Don't ask me to explain why, please; I'd need to write a thesis to do that. I can explain how specific rules apply to given situations if you ask, though.


ETheBoyce wrote:Further the idea of getting behind an enemy is itself flawed, an enemy force can just press itself against a hex boundary and then there's no flanking or getting behind them,

Marbit said hexes were getting a lot bigger, like 1000x1000 Squares. And we can leave the hex. The Naughty Kitties have 4 more overland move than the majority of our army, (more if they take Swift) so they should have enough left over to do this multiple times in one battle.


ETheBoyce wrote:and our infantry are, in fact, our least important unit type which is why they are so easily replaced

Let's try this... You have archers with some infantry. I have no archers, but I have cavalry and infantry than you.

My cavalry maneuver, out of range of your archers, around to your flank and rear. Your forces are trapped, surrounded. The infantry advance at the same time the cavalry charges.

You don't have enough infantry to block all the cavalry, and some gets through to your archers, whom are slaughtered. Or perhaps you deploy all you infantry to stop the cav, in which case the infantry only needs to weather 2-3 volleys before they reach (and massacre) the archers.

I know I'm simplifying things a lot, (for one, I'd need archers of my own to limit your ability to manuever) but the principle is sound. And, it's amplified by Foolamancy... What if the Cavalry was invisible, such that the first time you see them is when they're butchering your archers? Or if the ground where your archers stood was Baffle-smoked, such that you'd have to move out (and closer to my forces) in order to shoot at all? Or if half your archers wasted their shots on Illusionary units?


There are just so many possibilities, that sticking to just one unit type is just hamstringing ourselves.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby Nnelg » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:18 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:And I agree with WhyrdCheese, this -is- ridiculous. When is this game actually going to be, ya know, played?

I know. Don't look at me though, I've been active and talking a lot. In fact, I'm the only person who's been trying to do all the paperwork.


BLANDCorporatio wrote:Their length far exceeds any justifications in terms of selecting good play, and the amount of bureaucracy that is creeping into this game under the influence of Nnelg is tedious.

Hey, I'm just sitting around here waiting for certain people to chime in with feedback on my suggested popping schedule and unit organizations.

And at the moment, the only thing that's stopping me from posting a full timetable is the fact that we'll be bankrupt by turn 12. I'm still waiting for Marbit to confirm our income/upkeep numbers.


BLANDCorporatio wrote:If people have a score to settle as to what strategy is best, here's my 2 cents. Let them have their small army, each, and organize as they see fit.

If only we could. As it is, it looks like we'll have to disband half our standing army soon. Not that we'd have enough to do what you said, anyways... Unless by "small army" you mean "squad". (A single squad can't be a whole army, since there are too many different roles to fill. But that's splitting hairs.)


BLANDCorporatio wrote:Seems that we're going that route anyway. It will be up to poor Tod to somehow allocate the pop resources while somehow miraculously avoiding the political wrangling that army branches will subject him to. Kinda like real life, but why does this have to be an emulation of that.

Because it's being played by real people. ;)

I'm trying to push forwards a system to streamline things. If we organize all units into semi-permanent Squads, we can think in terms of "this squad needs 3 spearman to replace a casualties", or "we need another squad of archers, tell Tenebris to pop 8", or even "this squad of heavies belongs to Yuri: it is his privilege to order them however he wants, but also his responsibility to tell Tod what the squad needs... and to make do when he doesn't get it".

That's closer to how they do stuff in real life, and it works well enough there.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby Nnelg » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:56 pm

Well, at least let's get a popping schedule sorted out:


Turn 10:
Spoiler: show
Tenebris:
Popping: 16x Imps

Dis City:
Popping: ???


Turn 11:
Spoiler: show
Tenebris:
Popping: ???

Dis City:
Popping: ???


Turn 12:
Spoiler: show
Tenebris:
Popping: ???
Gobwins: 16x Garrison Miners (8 UP remaining)

Dis City:
Popping: ???
Gobwins: 4x Gobwin Artisans (4 UP remaining)


Turn 13:
Spoiler: show
Tenebris:
Popping: 2x Naughty Kitties (So that Regus and Zed2 may make it to the battle. Anex may ride Melissa.)
Gobwins: ???

Dis City:
Popping: ???
Gobwins: ???


Not much "sorted", is it? :P
But these three turns, at least, we should get sorted out. Anything popped afterwards won't be able to make it unless it's fast, and/or we Balrug it in. I don't think we need to go to those lengths, though; we should have more than enough already.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby WhirdCheese » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:54 pm

Shouldn't we get scouting information from the Imps? What turn do we get that on?
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby 0beron » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:13 pm

Wait what is this business of Artisan? Marbit what did I miss?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it, and call total and utter BS, I am totally useless as is, and you want to take away my ONLY purpose? EFF THAT NO.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby Nnelg » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:47 pm

0beron wrote:Wait what is this business of Artisan? Marbit what did I miss?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it, and call total and utter BS, I am totally useless as is, and you want to take away my ONLY purpose? EFF THAT NO.

I agree with you there; the only way it could possibly be fair is if we could pop Artisans without needing a gobwin.

Oh, and do you have a record of how many Golems you can make in 7 turns?


(By the way, you are by no means useless. Your golems, as 0-upkeep units with access to several unique abilities, are highly valuable. You have more control over what kind of forces we produce than any other player.)


WhirdCheese wrote:Shouldn't we get scouting information from the Imps? What turn do we get that on?

Yet another thing I'm waiting on an answer for.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby 0beron » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:56 pm

I have 13 by turn 16.

3 Steadycrows
6 Scarycrows
3 Jack-o-Lantern
1 Bomb-o-Lantern
(Plus 1 Bomb-o in progress)
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:48 pm

Tenebris Turn 10 Results

Karma : -10

Starting Treasury: 8200
Spoiler: show
    Tenebris Income: 6600 (includes Regent bonus)
    Tenebris Upkeep: 6000
    Dis City Income: 1980 (includes Regent bonus)
    Dis City Upkeep: 2520
    Farms & Mines: 200
    Diplomacy: 9000
    Upgrade Dis City: 16000
Final Treasury: 1460

City Details
Spoiler: show
    Tenebris Queue: 16 Imps
    Dis City Queue: ?? (Mining Picks will be created by Fabricate, which will be available on Turn 12 when Sto reaches Dis City and pops Gobwin Artisans.)

    Tenebris Towers (at End of Turn): 0 Spells stored
    Dis City Towers (@EOT): 0 Spells stored

Actions Taken
Spoiler: show
Scouting
    Imp Scouts (23): 4: Lolly's Realm; 12: Tenebris Surroundings; 7: Logan's Run, Rainbow Springs, Scarlet Hills

Unit Actions
    Rolf (Werebiscuit): Stationed in Dis City
    William Showend Tell (BLANDCorporatio): Stationed in Dis City
    Cupid (HerbieRai): Foraging
    Yuri (Exate): Diplomacy
    T. Coil (ETheBoyce): Charging Towers, Experimenting on Gumption Corpse
    Bill (The Colonel): Upkeep on uncroaked
    Tod (Swodaems): Training 8 Spearmen
    Triage (WaterMonkey314): Warding Units
    Vinny Starcall (0beron): Crafting Golems
    Brick Wall (Lord of Monies): Stationed in Dis City
    Nemo (Nnelg): Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Rudy Eye (bob the 6th) : Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Fortunes Chance (WhirdCheese): Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Donovan (CroverusRaven) : Stationed in Dis City
    Zed-Too (BLANDCorporatio) : Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Anex (Werebiscuit) : Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Junetta: Warding Units
    Sto: Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
Note: Foraging on this turn reduces next turn's upkeep.

Let me know what corrections are required.

Results
Spoiler: show
Scouting
    Tenebris Surroundings (12 Imps) : Find Forage worth 780; archers dispatched.
    Lolly's realm (4 Imps) : ETA Turn 12
    Logan's Run (2 Imps): ETA Turn 13
    Rainbow Springs (2 Imps): ETA Turn 13
    Scarlet Hills (2 Imps): ETA Turn 14

Unit Actions
Cupid : Forage 450 Shmuckers
Coil : Create Juice Potion (4 of 15 Juice) (Delaying Tower Charge until Fortune arrives)
Bill : 9 Skeleton Upkeep [5 * 12 / 2] (30 Juice)
Triage : Damage Wards / Potions
Junetta : Damage Wards / Potions
Vinny : Craft Lesser Golems : 2 Steadycrows (32 Juice), 4 Juice towards 3rd Steadycrow
Yuri : Diplomacy - Gain 9,000 Shumckers!
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:49 pm

Tenebris Turn 11 Results

Karma : -10

Starting Treasury: 1460
Spoiler: show
    Tenebris Income: 6600 (includes Regent bonus)
    Tenebris Upkeep: 6160
    Tenebris Foraging: (780)
    Dis City Income: 3520 (includes Regent bonus)
    Dis City Upkeep: 2680
    Dis City Foraging: (450)
    Farms & Mines: 200
    Diplomacy: 0
Final Treasury: 4170

City Details
Spoiler: show
    Tenebris Queue: 16 Imps
    Dis City Queue: ??

    Tenebris Towers (at End of Turn): 0 Spells stored
    Dis City Towers (@EOT): 0 Spells stored


Actions Taken
Spoiler: show
Scouting
    Imp Scouts (23): 4: Lolly's Realm; 12: Tenebris Surroundings; 7: Logan's Run, Rainbow Springs, Scarlet Hills

Unit Actions
    Rolf (Werebiscuit): Stationed in Dis City
    William Showend Tell (BLANDCorporatio): Stationed in Dis City
    Cupid (HerbieRai): Foraging
    Yuri (Exate): Diplomacy
    T. Coil (ETheBoyce): Charging Towers, Experimenting on Gumption Corpse
    Bill (The Colonel): Upkeep on uncroaked
    Tod (Swodaems): Training 8 Spearmen
    Triage (WaterMonkey314): Warding Units
    Vinny Starcall (0beron): Crafting Golems
    Brick Wall (Lord of Monies): Stationed in Dis City
    Nemo (Nnelg): Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Rudy Eye (bob the 6th) : Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Fortunes Chance (WhirdCheese): Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Donovan (CroverusRaven) : Stationed in Dis City
    Zed-Too (BLANDCorporatio) : Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Anex (Werebiscuit) : Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
    Junetta: Warding Units
    Sto: Heading to Tenebris (arrive Turn 12)
Note: Foraging on this turn reduces next turn's upkeep.

Let me know what corrections are required.

Results
Spoiler: show
Scouting
    Tenebris Surroundings (12 Imps) : Find Forage worth 740; archers dispatched.

    Lolly's realm (4 Imps) : ETA Turn 12
    Logan's Run (2 Imps): ETA Turn 13
    Rainbow Springs (2 Imps): ETA Turn 13
    Scarlet Hills (2 Imps): ETA Turn 14

Unit Actions
Cupid : Forage 400 Shmuckers
Coil : Create Juice Potion (8 of 15 Juice) (Delaying Tower Charge until Fortune arrives)
Bill : 9 Skeleton Upkeep [5 * 12 / 2] (30 Juice)
Triage : Damage Wards / Potions
Junetta : Damage Wards / Potions
Vinny : Craft Lesser Golems : 1 Steadycrows (12 Juice), 1 Scarycrow (16 Juice), 8 Juice towards Scarycrow
Yuri : Diplomacy
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:50 pm

Tenebris Turn 12 Results

Karma : -10

Starting Treasury: 4170
Spoiler: show
    Tenebris Income: 6600 (includes Regent bonus)
    Tenebris Upkeep: 6320
    Tenebris Foraging: (740)
    Dis City Income: 3520 (includes Regent bonus)
    Dis City Upkeep: 2840
    Dis City Foraging: (400)
    Farms & Mines: 200
    Diplomacy: 0
Final Treasury: 6470

City Details
Spoiler: show
    Tenebris Queue: ??
    Tenebris Natural Allies: Pop 1 Warrior w/ Leadership (@ 100), 16 Miners (@ 100)
    Dis City Queue: ??
    Dis City Natural Allies: ??

    Tenebris Towers (at End of Turn): 0 Spells stored
    Dis City Towers (@EOT): Ickypron (15 Combat, Lesser Boost:2) x1


Actions Taken
Spoiler: show
Scouting
    Imp Scouts (23): 4: Lolly's Realm; 12: Tenebris Surroundings; 7: Logan's Run, Rainbow Springs, Scarlet Hills

Unit Actions
    Rolf (Werebiscuit): Stationed in Dis City
    William Showend Tell (BLANDCorporatio): Stationed in Dis City
    Cupid (HerbieRai): Foraging
    Yuri (Exate): Diplomacy
    T. Coil (ETheBoyce): Charging Towers, Experimenting on Gumption Corpse
    Bill (The Colonel): Upkeep on uncroaked
    Tod (Swodaems): Training 8 Spearmen
    Triage (WaterMonkey314): Warding Units
    Vinny Starcall (0beron): Crafting Golems
    Brick Wall (Lord of Monies): Stationed in Dis City
    Nemo (Nnelg): Arrive at Tenebris; Take Balrug to Dis City
    Rudy Eye (bob the 6th) : Arrive at Tenebris
    Fortunes Chance (WhirdCheese): Arrive at Tenebris; Take Balrug to Dis City
    Donovan (CroverusRaven) : Stationed in Dis City
    Zed-Too (BLANDCorporatio) : Arrive at Tenebris
    Anex (Werebiscuit) : Arrive at Tenebris
    Junetta: Warding Units
    Sto: Arrive at Tenebris; Take Balrug to Dis City
Note: Foraging on this turn reduces next turn's upkeep.

Let me know what corrections are required.


Results
Spoiler: show
Scouting
    Tenebris Surroundings (12 Imps) : Find Forage worth 760; archers dispatched.

    Lolly's realm (4 Imps) : 1 Imp positions @ known entrance. 3 Imps continue scouting the area.
    Logan's Run (2 Imps): ETA Turn 13
    Rainbow Springs (2 Imps): ETA Turn 13
    Scarlet Hills (2 Imps): ETA Turn 14

Unit Actions
Cupid : Forage 420 Shmuckers
Coil : Ickypron on Tower (30 Juice)
Bill : 9 Skeleton Upkeep [5 * 12 / 2] (30 Juice)
Triage : Damage Wards / Potions
Junetta : Damage Wards / Potions
Vinny : Craft Lesser Golems : 1 Scarycrow (8 Juice), 1 Scarycrow (16 Juice), 12 Juice towards Scarycrow
Yuri : Diplomacy
Fortune : Lesser Boost:2 on Coil (x2)
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:58 pm

Next three turn results are posted. We'll correct any issues and update the results, then get the next few turn results out again.

I anticipate that there will be 4 possible concurrent scenarios:
    1) Assault on Logan Run
    2) Charlie's Mercenary Mission #1
    3) Escort Mission
    4) Random Encounter Mission
Start thinking about which you'd prefer. Some details about Scenario #1 will be available on Turn 13.

No details about Scenarios #2, #3, and #4 will be available.

All scenarios risk character death, but if you want to participate in scenarios #3 or #4, there is a much greater chance of dying than in the campaign missions.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby WhirdCheese » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:58 pm

For the record All New Batch PC's are Blessed twice on the travel to Tenebris.

Fortune will choose option 1.
Blackbeard Option 2

I'd suggest Brick for Option 3. He can bodyguard the Envoy and that way it will more likely make it.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby Nnelg » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:03 pm

Thank you Marbit, that's very helpful.


Oh, and in case you missed it, 0beron agreed to give Nemo and Fort the last two cloaks he made. (I'm not exactly certain of the details of that, though.)

I think it's also safe now for you to give Nemo Baffle, and put all his combat stats into Juice.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:26 pm

WhirdCheese wrote:For the record All New Batch PC's are Blessed twice on the travel to Tenebris.
Noted, although I didn't want to assume, and didn't remember if you'd stated it. The King requests that you don't Boost any units in Tenebris proper, since he doesn't want to accrue negative karma away from the action. I'll update the references.

Nnelg wrote:Oh, and in case you missed it, 0beron agreed to give Nemo and Fort the last two cloaks he made. (I'm not exactly certain of the details of that, though.)
I think it's also safe now for you to give Nemo Baffle, and put all his combat stats into Juice.

Vinny's character lists 2 cloaks: 1 Fire, 1 Shockamancy, and he's wearing the Fire cloak. 0beron, please confirm who gets which cloak, and note that leaves Vinny with no cloaks currently.

Reference section has been updated w/ Boosts and Nemo's new stats. Let me know if you see anything that needs correcting.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby Nnelg » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:27 pm

WhirdCheese wrote:I'd suggest Brick for Option 3. He can bodyguard the Envoy and that way it will more likely make it.

Why use a PC for that, when you can use NPC bodyguards? Brick would be better guarding one of our Alt Elves, whichever direction he goes.

MarbitChow wrote:Next three turn results are posted. We'll correct any issues and update the results, then get the next few turn results out again.

I anticipate that there will be 4 possible concurrent scenarios:
    1) Assault on Logan Run
    2) Charlie's Mercenary Mission #1
    3) Escort Mission
    4) Random Encounter Mission
Start thinking about which you'd prefer. Some details about Scenario #1 will be available on Turn 13.

No details about Scenarios #2, #3, and #4 will be available.

All scenarios risk character death, but if you want to participate in scenarios #3 or #4, there is a much greater chance of dying than in the campaign missions.

Actually... An escort mission sounds like exactly what we need to solve the recent argument...

Regus was moved to the NPC section, right? If I could possibly (with tigerusthegreat's permission, of course) take him as my secondary PC (I'd give him back if tigerus should ever return), and we could put him in charge of a Squad of lancers like the one I suggested. I'd then take Regus into the escort mission, where the Kitties' superior maneuverability would be more of an advantage.

I'd also like to bring the Heck Pups and possibly extra NKs for any VIPs we must escort. And at least one unit with healing (Junetta, or one of the Alt Elves, probably). Fliers would be useful, (especially Cupid) and they'd be less likely to get shot up than they would at Logan's Run.
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Re: Darkness Rising v2.0 - 'Tenebris Unleashed' Campaign

Postby 0beron » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:28 pm

Marbit that is because you never wrote down the bunch of spare Fire ones I crafted. I don't remember how many, but it was at LEAST 2, so I'm going on the low side.
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