Book 2 – Page 99

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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Salem » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:43 pm

tgriff02 wrote: But I agree with the comment made previously about the exchange between Wanda and Jillian where Wanda says, "When the prisoner requests the easy way, she gets the easy way; but when she requests the very easy way, she gets the VERY hard way." I think Fate has a similar attitude.

Fate is a cruel mistress.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby tgriff02 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:47 pm

junovalkyrie wrote:
tgriff02 wrote:And what more fitting place to put such a memorial than the Portal Room, the acess to the Magic Kingdom; where the feces of those gone ahead can stare down at those in the now, reminding them of the shoes they have to fill, and the dissapointments of failed ambition.


Only if their side has a dirtamancer. :P



BWahahaha! Nice catch, thanks I'll go do some apprentice class retconjuring :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby king.of.cats » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:24 pm

cloudbreaker wrote:Jack's trick confuses me, as it should. I am wondering if he was ever really completely in the Magic Kingdom to begin with, or if he was just half in, half out and never actually stopped his head-roll illusion.

Jack's a master class foolamancer. He Veiled himself as the portal as soon as everyone's attention followed his head rolling off while keeping a fully articulated image present and being able to perceive everything by peeking... Still would have consumed a fair amount of juice for the veil, the image, and the ventriloquism.

Parson may be rubbing off on him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Glome » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:10 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Interesting that Marie's response leaves open the possibility that GK will lose at Spacerock and/or Parson will be captured - possibly even decrypted.


It would be really misleading to characterize a battle where you are captured or decrypted as just another battle, so I don't think that will happen just because it goes against the spirit of her prediction even if it's technically possible. On the other hand, the fact that Marie didn't come out and say that he will win the battle indicates either a stalemate or that he'll lose more than he gains.

Basically I expect by the end of this battle that the only defenders standing will be Parson and possibly Jack and/or Sylvia, plus maybe a red dragon or two.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby multilis » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:46 am

Glome wrote:the fact that Marie didn't come out and say that he will win the battle indicates either a stalemate or that he'll lose more than he gains...

"Yes, eventually. Today, its just anotha battle"

Those words can be interpreted as Marie saying he will win the battle... "yes, eventually" could simply mean a longer battle, or 'eventually' could be reference to Charlie's archons getting involved after Jetstone ends turn. (yes, wording could also be winning war but losing battle.)

(When Ansom allied with Charlie, he had to wait a turn for archons to be able to cross city zone, so I guess plan this time has Charlie's attack after/no alliance)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Kreistor » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:48 am

Jack's "trick" is fairly simple. You see him poking only his head through the portal in:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-09-16.jpg

Then he shows us using Foolamancy in:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-09-30.jpg

The Foolamancy was this: he faked the portal closing, and created a false image of himself in TMK. He still only has his head stuck through the portal. I initially thought Wanda was an image, too, but that idea was dispelled.

___

Getting Wanda back is fairly simple. Clear all of Garrison (Tower ruins, dungeons, Courtyard) of enemy units and the sity is captured. It is Capital-capable, so have Stanley switch Capitals to Spacerock. Portal appears, and Wanda can step through legally. Decrypt, and return. Switch Capitals back to GK, and Casters return.

Why?

Because Charlie's Archons are a threat to Stanley. With all Caster power out of GK, GK is vulnerable to the Archons. No one can fire Tower defenses, and the Dragon corps is annihilated. GK is very vulnerable to a strike at Command, and Stanley has no Heir.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby effataigus » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:57 pm

Kreistor wrote:Because Charlie's Archons are a threat to Stanley. With all Caster power out of GK, GK is vulnerable to the Archons. No one can fire Tower defenses, and the Dragon corps is annihilated. GK is very vulnerable to a strike at Command, and Stanley has no Heir.
Maybe Archons, but I don't put as much stock in that as in other possibilities. Consider:
1. We have good cause to believe that Charlie can meddle with natural allies, gobwins have turned traitor on GK before, and there was foreshadowing of Hobgobwins withholding secrets about something.
2. Natural allies make up a large part of GK's defense forces, and a small part of the attack forces.
3. We have good cause to believe that Charlie is a caster, and it has now been demonstrated that casters can attack through enemy portals with little recourse.
4. Charlie wanted the portal closed now rather than waiting for Parson to close it himself later in JS's turn... suggesting his plan is for something off turn, so all of the units are stuck in the hexes/zones they are currently in... (admittedly there has been some speculation that archons are sufficiently caster-like that they could portal hop off-turn).
5. Stanley is in the portal room, and Charlie may even know it depending on how much his tapping into Maggie's distracted thinkagram may have revealed.

These collectively imply to me that there's a good chance that Charlie is about to do a decapitation strike personally off turn using turned natural allies (or, less likely, archons). This would also answer why two other things are just-so from a storytelling standpoint:
1. Why did Maggie insist on going to TMK? (to preserve her character through an attack on GK)
2. Why do natural allies get to command their units via natural thinkamancy from the chief where traditional sides do not? (so the heavy hobgobwins in Spacerock's turning will be more dramatic than them sitting around waiting for orders... even if their job is less important than the hobgobwins' in GK).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby bladestorm » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:07 pm

effataigus wrote:2. Why do natural allies get to command their units via natural thinkamancy from the chief where traditional sides do not? (so the heavy hobgobwins in Spacerock's turning will be more dramatic than them sitting around waiting for orders... even if their job is less important than the hobgobwins' in GK).

So if Vurp breaks alliance, could he appoint someone in Spacerock as a leader, and have them settle that city as well? And how many other cities have hobgobwins as their main defense? Dust the decrypted that used to be the allies, and suddenly Vurp is in command of close to a dozen cities.

Or if Stanley is out of the way, could Wanda ally with Vurp's forces? And could Vurp make an attempt to attune to the Hammer?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Kreistor » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:08 pm

effataigus wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Because Charlie's Archons are a threat to Stanley. With all Caster power out of GK, GK is vulnerable to the Archons. No one can fire Tower defenses, and the Dragon corps is annihilated. GK is very vulnerable to a strike at Command, and Stanley has no Heir.
Maybe Archons, but I don't put as much stock in that as in other possibilities. Consider:
1. We have good cause to believe that Charlie can meddle with natural allies, gobwins have turned traitor on GK before, and there was foreshadowing of Hobgobwins withholding secrets about something.


a) There is no evidence Charlie had anything to do with the Gobwin conspiracy to remove Saline. The more likely instigator of that is Wanda. She had means, motive and opportunity. You cannot demonstrate Charlie had means or opportunity, or even motive that early in Stanley's career. He was just an Arkentool user -- nothing more.

b) "Meddling" with the gobwin spawn requires only a Mathamancer (Charlie is on excellent terms with MK mercenaries) to predict spawn, and Archons present to either kill or recruit the new pops (Charlescomm is a mountain zone, and would have use of Gobwin tunnelers). Charlie, expecting a GK assault on Charlescomm, has reason to build up mountain capable allies, for the first time ever, so gets a three-fer by recruiting Gobwins. He keeps them oout of GK tunnels and dungeons, he increases his own defenses, and confuses GK command. It doesn't take any kind of super-special powers he doesn't already have. Just plain old smart use of available resources.

c) As a mercenary, Saline's fall at Charlie's hands must have a clearly identifiable monetary benefit. You can speculate all the political gains you want, but if found out, Charlie needs to convince his allies it was mercenary to maintain his cover story. Good luck with that. It's far better to just leave internal politics well enough alone, since most things work themselves out without interference, especially when there is no immediate threat.

2. Natural allies make up a large part of GK's defense forces, and a small part of the attack forces.


Citation, please. I am unaware of any listing of GK's current defenses, and the proportion that are decrypted or twoll vs. hob.

Further, irrelevant without confirmation Charlie previously worked with the Gobwins.

3. We have good cause to believe that Charlie is a caster, and it has now been demonstrated that casters can attack through enemy portals with little recourse.


Speculation, and inevitably unprovable. Charlie is based partially on Charlie of Charlie's Angels. We have yet to learn a single fact about that character. The author, paralleling the TV show, will probably never let us know anything about Charlie. EVER. Expect reversals and disinformation, thanks to the known powers of the Arkendish.

4. Charlie wanted the portal closed now rather than waiting for Parson to close it himself later in JS's turn... suggesting his plan is for something off turn, so all of the units are stuck in the hexes/zones they are currently in... (admittedly there has been some speculation that archons are sufficiently caster-like that they could portal hop off-turn).


Charlie's plans are flexible. That they change and adapt only indicate a mind well-suited to conflict. Whatever his initial long term plans, Gk has now become vulnerable. As a known opportunist, if the benefit of wiping out GK is clear (a. restores confidence of clients, b. removes potential threat, c. restores former income levels), he will take a non-planned for risk.

We have never seen a non-Caster magic capable unit in the MK. Any suggestion they can pass a portal is purely speculation.

5. Stanley is in the portal room, and Charlie may even know it depending on how much his tapping into Maggie's distracted thinkagram may have revealed.


And it is not far from the forces already trying to prevent the MK's traditions from being violated. Charlie hiring an assault squad and breaking the rules may have a force responding by crashing into his own Capital through his own portal. Charlie would NEVER risk the permanent distrust of his only source of casters.

These collectively imply to me that there's a good chance that Charlie is about to do a decapitation strike personally off turn using turned natural allies (or, less likely, archons).


Oh, get real. Stanley is far too important to the story for that. Charlie would annihilate his future pulling that kind of move. He:
a) stops being a merc, making himself dangerous to his neighbours. RCC3, anyone?
b) has to break MK protocols. Obvioulsy not easy to find Casters willing to do that. Easy to find resistance, though.
c) has absolutely nothing the GK Hobs want. Schmuckers? They already belong to the richest Side on the map.
d) If he has already done this to Saline, which lead to the massacre of tBfGK, the Hobs are not going to be very willing to trust him again. Life was better under Saline, so listening to him once was already a bad idea. That's if you really believe Charlie was behind Saline's Fall, which I simply do not agree with. Way too high risk for Charlie, with absolutely no identifiable gain.

Charlie is in decline right now (no identifiable paying clients, so income is way down to all appearances), to everyone except the readers (though even we should be able to identify Charlie's income is reduced due to the end of tBfGK and spurning by local Royals). GK is on the rise, destroying Side after Side, and the Hobs in GK know no different. (Spacerock is happening now, in fast real time, not over weeks, like we see it. The GK defenders know nothing about what's happened in Spacerock today, so they still think there are dozens of dwagons and archons on their Side.) Tying themselves to a diminished Charlie is moronically stupid when their own Side and Clan is growing rapidly, especially when Charlie has no long term use for them once GK is dust.

This would also answer why two other things are just-so from a storytelling standpoint:
1. Why did Maggie insist on going to TMK? (to preserve her character through an attack on GK)


Because "Strategy" is listed as a weakness (not a strength as some think) on her character sheet. She's not that smart. She saw her critical ally, Parson, in danger and reacted stupidly by going to defend him, instead of trusting him to get himself out of it. That's all. In good stories, people sometimes do superficially smart things that turn out to be stupid things, partially because they don't have 2 weeks to figure out the best action. So, in short, it was an in-character mistake that requires absolutely no additional analysis.

But, in fact, it adds to Parson's difficulty in Saving The Day, and so is just a plot complication for our Protagonist. This is, after all, Parson's story.

2. Why do natural allies get to command their units via natural thinkamancy from the chief where traditional sides do not?


And where exactly is that Chief right now, and what happens to him if he changes Sides in the middle of whatever he is currently doing? (Hint: it begins with 'b' and ends in 'uuurns'.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby tgriff02 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:28 pm

effataigus wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Because Charlie's Archons are a threat to Stanley. With all Caster power out of GK, GK is vulnerable to the Archons. No one can fire Tower defenses, and the Dragon corps is annihilated. GK is very vulnerable to a strike at Command, and Stanley has no Heir.
Maybe Archons, but I don't put as much stock in that as in other possibilities. Consider:
1. We have good cause to believe that Charlie can meddle with natural allies, gobwins have turned traitor on GK before, and there was foreshadowing of Hobgobwins withholding secrets about something.
2. Natural allies make up a large part of GK's defense forces, and a small part of the attack forces.
3. We have good cause to believe that Charlie is a caster, and it has now been demonstrated that casters can attack through enemy portals with little recourse.
4. Charlie wanted the portal closed now rather than waiting for Parson to close it himself later in JS's turn... suggesting his plan is for something off turn, so all of the units are stuck in the hexes/zones they are currently in... (admittedly there has been some speculation that archons are sufficiently caster-like that they could portal hop off-turn).
5. Stanley is in the portal room, and Charlie may even know it depending on how much his tapping into Maggie's distracted thinkagram may have revealed.

These collectively imply to me that there's a good chance that Charlie is about to do a decapitation strike personally off turn using turned natural allies (or, less likely, archons). This would also answer why two other things are just-so from a storytelling standpoint:
1. Why did Maggie insist on going to TMK? (to preserve her character through an attack on GK)
2. Why do natural allies get to command their units via natural thinkamancy from the chief where traditional sides do not? (so the heavy hobgobwins in Spacerock's turning will be more dramatic than them sitting around waiting for orders... even if their job is less important than the hobgobwins' in GK).


You know, I had not really thought about any of that. I knew that Parson's bracelet had made it pretty clear that Charlie was most likely the cause for the lack of Gobwins; but I hadn't really read anymore into it. I'm not one of those "Charlie's behind EVERYTHING" believers, although he does seem to be behind a LOT. I don't assume that the massive Dwagon build-up that allowed Stanly to take Faq was Charlie, it could have been, but it also could have been Fate reacting Wanda's trying to "help." I hadn't ever gotten around to putting any thought behind the implications of Charlie being able to manipulate natural ally spawn rates, especially not to concider that he could mess with their actual loyalty, but that IS a good observation. It WAS Charlie's idea to have Jillian negotiate a betral of another side's Natural Allies to help build her army, wasn't it? And when Stanly was monologueing his rise to power, he didn't take credit for the godwin/hobgobwin revolt that make him Overloard, although he had absolutely no reason to hide it at the moment. The RCC seems to just assume that Stanly engineered the rebelion to commit regicide, but Stanly himself has never claimed such, has he?
Verrrry, interesting...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby tgriff02 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:19 pm

Kreistor wrote:a) There is no evidence Charlie had anything to do with the Gobwin conspiracy to remove Saline. The more likely instigator of that is Wanda. She had means, motive and opportunity. You cannot demonstrate Charlie had means or opportunity, or even motive that early in Stanley's career. He was just an Arkentool user -- nothing more.


There is no evidence that Wanda had motive, means, or opportunity to have any effect on the fall of Saline IV. She was a caster of a pacifist idealed bubble kingdom, and even though she's admitted to luring Stanly to Faq, she also had an obvious reason for that. Her reason for luring Stanly doesn't extend to overthrowing Saline, no reason for her to get THAT involved in GK's politics, by your own arguments this theory is just as unfounded as any other.

b) "Meddling" with the gobwin spawn requires only a Mathamancer (Charlie is on excellent terms with MK mercenaries) to predict spawn, and Archons present to either kill or recruit the new pops (Charlescomm is a mountain zone, and would have use of Gobwin tunnelers). Charlie, expecting a GK assault on Charlescomm, has reason to build up mountain capable allies, for the first time ever, so gets a three-fer by recruiting Gobwins. He keeps them oout of GK tunnels and dungeons, he increases his own defenses, and confuses GK command. It doesn't take any kind of super-special powers he doesn't already have. Just plain old smart use of available resources.


again, by your own arguemnts this theory is invalid, all of the above requires Charlie SPENDING shmuckers, schmuckers that he currently isn't making due to the lack of paying customers that you offered as proof against the other theory.

c) As a mercenary, Saline's fall at Charlie's hands must have a clearly identifiable monetary benefit. You can speculate all the political gains you want, but if found out, Charlie needs to convince his allies it was mercenary to maintain his cover story. Good luck with that. It's far better to just leave internal politics well enough alone, since most things work themselves out without interference, especially when there is no immediate threat.


Saline's fall DID have a clearly identifiable monetary gain for Charlie, the RCC and war against GK. Charlie's own archons admitted that that they have a double edged mission to both assist their clients in solving problems, and to create more problems for their clients that need solving

Speculation, and inevitably unprovable. Charlie is based partially on Charlie of Charlie's Angels. We have yet to learn a single fact about that character. The author, paralleling the TV show, will probably never let us know anything about Charlie. EVER. Expect reversals and disinformation, thanks to the known powers of the Arkendish.


Technically this is ALL speculation and conjecture that cannot be proven until Rob decides to make his big reveals, so saying one theory is invalid simply because it is speculation automatically invalidates your own theories.

Charlie's plans are flexible. That they change and adapt only indicate a mind well-suited to conflict. Whatever his initial long term plans, Gk has now become vulnerable. As a known opportunist, if the benefit of wiping out GK is clear (a. restores confidence of clients, b. removes potential threat, c. restores former income levels), he will take a non-planned for risk.


Why do you assume that is unplanned? GK has now had Decrypted Archons for several turns, Several turns in which those Archons' loyalty was was NOT to Charlie alone. For all Charlie knows those Archons have spilled their guts giving GK all kinds of potentially harmful intelligence. Charlie has a direct and obvious reason to want GK wiped out as a Side. And every reason to have been planning for that ever since the end of Book 1.

Oh, get real.


This is a discussion forum where anyone is allowed to put forth their theories and ideas and have them discused. If you disagree, simply rebutt and offer your evidence for concideration of the Court, telling another to simply "get real" is not only agressive and unfounded, it's just RUDE ;)

Charlie is in decline right now (no identifiable paying clients, so income is way down to all appearances), to everyone except the readers (though even we should be able to identify Charlie's income is reduced due to the end of tBfGK and spurning by local Royals). GK is on the rise, destroying Side after Side, and


And, finally, as I mentioned above; this argument works against your proposal just as much as the other. Escept that a super strong GK side potentially works for Charlie as much as against, Stanly refuses to hire Charlie on principal; ergo the other, weaker, royal sides would seem to really NEED Charlie's help against it. All Charlie needs to do is restore their faith in his neutrality, which Fakely has made great strides in doing byt decimating the number of Decrypted Archons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby thegoofromspace » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:38 pm

I found a few things that help us out with our Jack question.

Check out Book 2, Page 94, when we get a good overhead view of everything around the Spacerock Portal in the Magic Kingdom: where's Jack? I don't see anyone in a white hat with a purple coat from that overhead view, so Jack must have been in Spacerock already. Really, we never see him after he says, "They look as though they may be carrying OPINIONS," comment on Page 81. Not even on Page 90, when we get a good view of Parson's stack. Granted that he was at the VERY back, on Page 83, but honestly, where would you want to stand if you want to get the chance to sneak off when the chance presents itself? Probably the very back.

Given what he said about their interlopers, he probably guessed that things would go belly-up and he'd be prevented from getting back to Spacerock, so it makes sense for him to do something sneaky. Given his nature as a Foolamancer, his first thought at a sign of trouble is probably, "How can I trick my way out of this?" It all fits.

Of course, this would also support the theory that Jack's presence in the Magic Kingdom was an illusion the whole time. In that version, we stop seeing Jack after Page 90 because he dismisses his illusion, or its time just runs out. Given that, it makes sense for him to hang around the back so no one can see the spell go poof. I like that theory even more, and here's why: Page 73, Jack does his head trick, and touches Sizemore on the shoulder at one point. But can Foolamancers make illusions that have any solidity to them? I'm not sure that they can, and IF they can, then it's definitely something that they don't HAVE to do.

So, Jack uses his illusion to touch Sizemore on the shoulder. When Sizemore doesn't feel anything, that gives Jack a clever way to signal to Sizemore that he isn't really there. Sizemore seems to be flashing a knowing, concerned smile right back at Jack. Seriously, look at his face. He's all, "Dude, really? Wow... I am in awe." And again, it seems like something Jack would do, but in this case he's showing remarkable foresight as well, and communicating that he's doing something tricky with the rest of his team. Since Jack is tied for my favorite, right with Sizemore, I choose to believe anything that will make him even more awesome until proven otherwise.

The real problem with my reading, here, is that Jack's head-popping illusion is enough to register that reaction on Sizemore by itself. But the Jack-just-snuck-right-in theory has its own problem: making an illusion with the last of his Juice would be easy for Jack. Sneaking past all those people, including some of whom were just standing right in front of the portal, would have been pretty hard. Even if they were paying attention to other things, someone in the group of a-dozen-or-so would have noticed it. Granted that this, too, would make Jack even more awesome than we knew! Just in a different way.

So really, I'm happy with either, but I like the "moment" between my two favorites more. Maybe we can get some slash-fic up in this? Here, I'll take a shot at it:

Sizemore had been giving Jack the occasional pensive glance, almost against his will, after his and Parson's return to Gobwin Knob. Jack pretended not to notice, but something showed that he was enjoying Sizemore's little looks. And that tore it: after everyone split from their meeting with Stanley, he resolved to follow Jack and finally ask his question.

Somehow, that turned into slowly, nervously following after Jack, rather than the confident approach he had imagined in the war room. He was just trying to recall what he was going to say when Jack turned around in a quick motion, and said, "Ah, Sizemore! Was there something you wanted?"

It startled Sizemore so much that he managed to blurt out half of his question before realizing that he. Was. Actually. Getting. Into. This. "When you made a false image of yourself in the Magic Kingdom, you, um, signalled to one of us that you weren't really there..."
That was when he noticed: Jack was BEAMING, and it stopped Sizemore completely. "Yes?"
Oh, why was Jack making him say it? He knew what this was about. Still, Sizemore plodded on: "I was just wondering..."
Jack just kept beaming, knowingly. Maddening. Sizemore stalled for time by clearing his throat. Why was he making this so hard? "Why did you pick... me?"
Jack scratched his chin for a moment, mock-thoughtfully gazing at the setting sun. He was clearly enjoying this way too much; it made Sizemore blush.
"Why... I just wanted to know you'd have to wait a bit longer."
"Longer...?"
"Yes, longer."
Sizemore flushed with frustration. Why was he DOING this? "Longer for WHAT?" he almost shouted.
"Why, to feel my touch, of course... What else?" With that, Jack put his slender hand on that same shoulder, filling Sizemore's mind with no thought nothing but,
Take me.

As if reading his mind, Jack did.


::takes a bow::
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby HandofShadows » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:49 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Possibly she wants to consult with Marie, she made the comment recently that she thinks that she has strayed off of Fate's "Easy Way" and was having trouble seeing the path back to her proper course. Wanda would know Marie from Faq, and while she may or may not get along with the predictimancer, there is probably some degree of mutal trust there, given that I'm inclined to agree with the idea that Wanda's Loyalty stat is to Fate, not any particular Side. I assume that Marie would have some inate sense of that from their time together in court.


When Wanda shows up in MK (page 73) Marie actually HUGS Wanda. :o Probably not many people that would even think of doing that. Marie is certainly one of the very few people that Wanda is close to.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby bladestorm » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:54 pm

There's plenty Charlie could gain by decapitating GK right now, with very little risk should he succeed. No one except Clonely and Charlie know the terms of their agreement, but Tram knows that an agreement had been struck. Kill everything in GK (the city), raze the city, and collect a HUGE sum of money. Pay Tram his cut to help his new position as King of Jetstone (1% should be more than enough), show him the contract agreed upon by the previous king (said document could be written out after the fact, since Clonely will mot be around next turn to deny it anyway, and if it seemed 'out of his normal character' to do such a thing... well people do odd things when they are desperate, like promote your diplomat son to heir designate when you've previously only promoted the dashing warrior sons), and hold him to that contract and its previously undisclosed terms.

Mercenary work done for the Royals, with a written contract for the assassination of GK (signed for by a now deceased entity), paid for by the signee's heir, and restoring royal's faith in Charlescomm's ability to maintain neutrality. That's a win for Charlie, and a relief for Tram (depending upon the terms of Charlie's contract. It may completely bend Tram over).

Or he can simply supply Jillian with a horde of Archons and enough intel to do the job. Faq and TV combined would be able to wipe out GK, and they are both desperately in need of funds. Jillian can claim the hammer (rename it the Banhammer if she really wanted to), even if she doesn't attune to it. TV can claim GK, and sets up Caesar to split off into his own side, thereby clearing a way for a royal heir and not hosing Caesar in the process. That's a win for Caesar, Jillian, Don, Tram, and Charlie. It also sets up Faq with allies in two directions.

Or Don can send Caesar in with bats (stacked with Archons with Leadership, so they acts as light infantry, plus Caesar's bonus, so they are more like advanced infantry). Caesar gets the payoff of claiming GK, splits to his own side and makes way for the royal heir to be popped. A win for TV, Caesar, Don and Charlie (who helped a royal side against a toolist, maybe even getting the Hammer during the chaos of battle). Charlie may even turn the Hammer over to Tram, replacing the Pliers taken from them by the vile GK Side (adding a win for Jetstone and Tram).

Whatever method chosen to eliminate Stanley, the isolated casters will go barbarian. Without the constant warfare that can only be found by being on a Side, the Pliers are much less of a threat to the Royal Sides. Isolating Wanda from a Side is possibly the biggest win to be gained from taking out GK. Not many people are gonna hire Wanda at this point. Charlescomm could, and that would be a HUGE bonus for Charlie. It also isolates Parson, and Charlie has admitted to wanting the mathemancy item and the smart warlord that it is attached to.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby tgriff02 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:19 pm

HandofShadows wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Possibly she wants to consult with Marie, she made the comment recently that she thinks that she has strayed off of Fate's "Easy Way" and was having trouble seeing the path back to her proper course. Wanda would know Marie from Faq, and while she may or may not get along with the predictimancer, there is probably some degree of mutal trust there, given that I'm inclined to agree with the idea that Wanda's Loyalty stat is to Fate, not any particular Side. I assume that Marie would have some inate sense of that from their time together in court.


When Wanda shows up in MK (page 73) Marie actually HUGS Wanda. :o Probably not many people that would even think of doing that. Marie is certainly one of the very few people that Wanda is close to.


Actually, I'm the one that originally made that comment about Wanda wanting to consult with Marie, and I actually do believe they are close, but i didn't want to get into debate over a minor detail since there are some of the memebers here who seem to have been enjoying the theories of Marie and super villian, and Wanda as being unfriendly with pretty muche veryone in MK. It always made sense to me for Wanda and Marie to be close, Wanda is a Fatalist, and Marie is a predictomancer who seems to have a grasp of delivering Predictions with a touch of finese and grace, unlike one Delphie Temple.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Lamech » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:20 am

bladestorm wrote:There's plenty Charlie could gain by decapitating GK right now, with very little risk should he succeed. No one except Clonely and Charlie know the terms of their agreement, but Tram knows that an agreement had been struck. Kill everything in GK (the city), raze the city, and collect a HUGE sum of money. Pay Tram his cut to help his new position as King of Jetstone (1% should be more than enough), show him the contract agreed upon by the previous king (said document could be written out after the fact, since Clonely will mot be around next turn to deny it anyway, and if it seemed 'out of his normal character' to do such a thing... well people do odd things when they are desperate, like promote your diplomat son to heir designate when you've previously only promoted the dashing warrior sons), and hold him to that contract and its previously undisclosed terms.

Wanda has been forced back to GK. Decryption and a full tower of spells is too much. Too much chance of a catastrophic failure. The archons on team Charlie will be out bonused probably. (Leadership of 8 on Charlie. vs Wanda 8, Leadership?, Artifact, City Defense Bonus? Tower Bonus ?) It could easily turn into a massacre.


Or Don can send Caesar in with bats (stacked with Archons with Leadership, so they acts as light infantry, plus Caesar's bonus, so they are more like advanced infantry). Caesar gets the payoff of claiming GK, splits to his own side and makes way for the royal heir to be popped. A win for TV, Caesar, Don and Charlie (who helped a royal side against a toolist, maybe even getting the Hammer during the chaos of battle). Charlie may even turn the Hammer over to Tram, replacing the Pliers taken from them by the vile GK Side (adding a win for Jetstone and Tram).
Even more chance of catastrophic failure. (And Ceaser probably isn't close enough to hit this turn.) If Ceaser goes down GK gets his absurd leadership. The attackers will get rolled, with everything going to GK.

If Charlie wins there is little chance of backfire. But if the strike fails? Charlie is now in GK's sites and GK has restored its archon fleet. The more resources Charlie puts in the bigger the potential blowback.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby effataigus » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:15 am

tgriff02 wrote:Saline's fall DID have a clearly identifiable monetary gain for Charlie, the RCC and war against GK. Charlie's own archons admitted that that they have a double edged mission to both assist their clients in solving problems, and to create more problems for their clients that need solving

Huh, really good point!

@ Kriestor... Your criticism that I miss-represented my confidence in my assertion that GK is defended largely by natural allies is on point. The rest of your criticisms were straw men or seemed to just be suggesting that I failed to express a lack of 100% certainty when I did not. I'm not sure I understood your response to (4.) which was really the heart of my case for why I'm thinking natural allies and portal hopping rather than archons... IIRC the rest of my post just argues that my proposed mechanism is possible, which I don't think you disagreed with.

Your comment that Stanley is too plot critical to die is also on point. I disagree with it, however.

Lamech wrote:If Charlie wins there is little chance of backfire. But if the strike fails? Charlie is now in GK's sites and GK has restored its archon fleet. The more resources Charlie puts in the bigger the potential blowback.
Yar... a personal jaunt through portal park would be a HUGE gamble for Charlie. He doesn't like showing his face much less risking his a**... I'm guessing the allure of screwing over Parson and getting the arkenhammer might just be enough to make him consider it, however. But sheesh... imagine if TGMTTA figured out who he was while he was headed toward GK...

Also, I don't mean to suggest that this is how this will happen, just that - if Charlie does do it - then it will have been masterfully foreshadowed.
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby peteratjet » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:36 am

Where in the Erfworld was Jack Snipe ?

hmm ...

... compare page 90 frame 9 where he's stacked with Parson and standing right behind him, with page 94 frame 9 where he's nowhere to be seen, but there is a great big suspicious bulge in Parson's cloak that wasn't there in page 90. (Move along, nothing to see here)

Foolamancy is as much about style as juice.

Somebody else suggested this earlier - kudos to them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby thegoofromspace » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:40 am

peteratjet wrote:... compare page 90 frame 9 where he's stacked with Parson and standing right behind him, with page 94 frame 9 where he's nowhere to be seen, but there is a great big suspicious bulge in Parson's cloak that wasn't there in page 90. (Move along, nothing to see here)


Say, you're right! I didn't see Jack in page 90 frame 5, but I didn't check the overhead view in frame 9. He was definitely there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby NYbear » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:57 am

multilis wrote:
Glome wrote:the fact that Marie didn't come out and say that he will win the battle indicates either a stalemate or that he'll lose more than he gains...

"Yes, eventually. Today, its just anotha battle"

Those words can be interpreted as Marie saying he will win the battle... "yes, eventually" could simply mean a longer battle, or 'eventually' could be reference to Charlie's archons getting involved after Jetstone ends turn. (yes, wording could also be winning war but losing battle.)

(When Ansom allied with Charlie, he had to wait a turn for archons to be able to cross city zone, so I guess plan this time has Charlie's attack after/no alliance)


I completely disagree with that interpretation. The question was "Will I win?" - Which she replies with "Yes, eventually. Today, its just another battle." The fact that she follows up the Yes, with the statement about Today, means that when she said he'll win, she's talking about in general/in the long run, but not necessarily today - .

She specifies that Today, well it's just a battle, meaning perhaps it's not fated to go one way or the other. That regardless of how this one battle plays out - Parson will go on to "win, eventually". So the battle for Spacerock can still be won/loss by either side.

If you're a star wars fan, consider this analogy. The rebels on Alderaan ask her if they will win. She says yes, eventually. And they (as in the rebels in general) do win. Doesn't mean their whole planet doesn't get destroyed in the process :P. Predictmancers are very careful about what they say for a reason.
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