Book 2 – Page 99

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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby bladestorm » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:31 pm

Lamech wrote:
bladestorm wrote:There's plenty Charlie could gain by decapitating GK right now, with very little risk should he succeed. No one except Clonely and Charlie know the terms of their agreement, but Tram knows that an agreement had been struck. Kill everything in GK (the city), raze the city, and collect a HUGE sum of money. Pay Tram his cut to help his new position as King of Jetstone (1% should be more than enough), show him the contract agreed upon by the previous king (said document could be written out after the fact, since Clonely will mot be around next turn to deny it anyway, and if it seemed 'out of his normal character' to do such a thing... well people do odd things when they are desperate, like promote your diplomat son to heir designate when you've previously only promoted the dashing warrior sons), and hold him to that contract and its previously undisclosed terms.

Wanda has been forced back to GK. Decryption and a full tower of spells is too much. Too much chance of a catastrophic failure. The archons on team Charlie will be out bonused probably. (Leadership of 8 on Charlie. vs Wanda 8, Leadership?, Artifact, City Defense Bonus? Tower Bonus ?) It could easily turn into a massacre.

If Charlie wins there is little chance of backfire. But if the strike fails? Charlie is now in GK's sites and GK has restored its archon fleet. The more resources Charlie puts in the bigger the potential blowback.

Where did this happen? Last I noticed, she was still in the Magick Kingdom, and may be there for quite a while. We don't know the terms of the agreement between Parson and tGMtTA, aside from no casters will go through that portal with him (yeah, yeah...Jack already broke that one). They could be holding GK's casters in MK until Parson returns through that portal to finish his meeting with tGMtTA. Charlie vs GK with two artifact bonuses would not go well unless he had complete numerical superiority. Charlie vs GK with a single artifact bonus and no spell support is much more attainable. The whole point was to isolate Stanley from his spell support and perfect warlord. The fact that the CWL bonus also just went through the MK hole just makes it an even better time to attempt it. Is it possible that Wanda can do a fifty yard sprint and get back to GK in time for the battle? Yes. Just as possible as the casters surrounding her would have to possibility of stopping her. Just one caster could keep Wanda out of the action for the rest of this turn. Either a hippymancer could make her unable to engage the rest of this turn, or Marie could tell her that GK was predicted to fall this day. And if, as has been speculated, Charlie was indeed the Wizard, there is no shortage of reasons why he would have a personal vendetta against Wanda due to her ties with Haffaton.

Stanley is at best a secondary character. Losing the side of GK, but having Parson and the casters survive, would only make a small dent in the story. Parson would no longer have a ton of schmuckers to throw at a problem, which would force him to try a different method to achieve his desired goals. That's what he's good at.

It would also fall right in line with MK's enforcement policy to not allow the GK casters through their home portal until after their side ended turn, just to ensure that GK doesn't launch another attack. If Charlie attacks before then, GK falls, and oh well, they shouldn't have violated MK's neutrality. MK can make up stuff on the spot as a means of detaining Wanda for any amount of time. Charlie could send one more thinkagram to Jojo, and he could start an entire witch hunt against all of GK's casters for their callous disregard for the rules all casters must abide by.

Even without risking any more of his own Archon's, Charlie can supply the necessary tactical coordination for the combined forces of TV and Faq. Between Caesar's and Jillian's bonuses, the bats, the warlords, the megalogwiffs, and the gwiffons, they should have the forces necessary to crush GK. Start from the tower and force your way down through into the garrison. Whatever gets routed into the tunnels is gonna find a lot of marbits down there, and they don't take kindly to gobwins and hobgobwins.

He could even play it smarter than a direct attack. Just let Jillian know that GK's casters and CWL are no longer in GK, and that Stanley is alone with only a small army and his hammer. Let her do what she does best -- use violence and screw things up. If Wanda responds and is able to make it to GK to man the spell defenses, Jillian will be safe. She is no stranger to the inside of GK, and easily survived the last time Wanda fired off the entire tower's worth of spells. If there is no Wanda to be seen, casually let TV know so they can provide support and backup, or at the very least go to Jillian's rescue.

Or, this has a lot of the same details as the death of Saline. CWL Stanely went on a special mission and took all of the casters with him, and when he returned, Saline was dead at the hands of his natural allies. Now, CWL Parson is on a special mission, and all of the casters have left GK. It may be as simple as a Suggestion spell on Vurp that he should be the leader instead of Stanley.

GK with all of its forces together has proven to be too strong for an entire coalition. They even did damage to the previously unassailable Charlescomm. Instead of fighting them as a group, isolate them and pick them off one by one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Kreistor » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:41 pm

tgriff02 wrote:There is no evidence that Wanda had motive, means, or opportunity to have any effect on the fall of Saline IV.


Means: She lived in GK, and so had immediate access to Hobs in the corridors of GK. (Stanley captured Wanda while he was still Chief Warlord, before he became Ruler, so she must have been on GK Side at the time of Saline's Fall.)

Motive: If Stanley became Ruler, he had no immediate use for the Hammer anymore. She may have been given it to enforce his Will on the world. It's a stretch, but so was calling Stanley to die against FAQ's defenses. Weak on Strategy, remember?

Opportunity: She was in GK.

She was a caster of a pacifist idealed bubble kingdom


Beep, wrong answer. Check your timing. FAQ was already destroyed when Saline Fell.

again, by your own arguemnts this theory is invalid, all of the above requires Charlie SPENDING shmuckers, schmuckers that he currently isn't making due to the lack of paying customers that you offered as proof against the other theory.


This is post-tBfGK, after the local royals have spurned Charlie. Charlie is not in local merc mode, since he has no possible clients. He is in "establish trust" mode. Cutting GK off from Gobwins is cheap, easy, and goes toward demonstrating his position against GK, restoring client confidence. Gathering the Gobwins in Capital defense mode is a non-aggressive demonstration of his allegiance against GK, firming up client trust. It sets GK back and places them in a position where they cannot be used against the RCC2. A two-fer, if the RCC2 learns of it. he still wants to keep it quiet from GK, since it's a surprise defense, so he won't be touting it.

Saline's fall DID have a clearly identifiable monetary gain for Charlie, the RCC and war against GK.


The prediction that Stanley would become a hyper-aggressive Ruler is not possible. We know from Jillian's transformation that Rulers undergo mental and physical changes, and so placing Stanley on the throne does not lead to the conclusion that a major conflict to destroy him would occur. Charlie requires an immediate and readily explainable motive, not something that takes hundreds of turns to play out. We know from Ketstone's losses of Princes that warfare in this region was already common, so starting a more major war does not necessarily lead to increased income. Charlie seems to want predictable income to generate more of his beloved Archons, at least according to the little the Archons have figured out. Charlie likes long term upkeep, not one shot income boosts.

Further, this is NOT something he wants to tell his Royal clients. "I created Stanley so you would have to fight a major war against him." That doesn't play well at all. Their response would be, "Then you're responsible for the massive deaths of our forces, and destruction of Royal Sides. Die!" You need a motive that he can play to the Royals. This one gets Charlie killed.

Technically this is ALL speculation and conjecture that cannot be proven until Rob decides to make his big reveals, so saying one theory is invalid simply because it is speculation automatically invalidates your own theories.


Some is. Most isn't. Saying what Charlie did is nearly impossible. Determining what he didn't do is a lot easier. 90% of the claims for his participation is simply fanboi wish fulfillment. They'll claim he did everything, and it's easy to do because we know little about him as a person. But we do know how he wants to appear to his Clients, as well as what he does with the Schmuckers he earns, and focusing on that can dispel much of the speculation. Charlie wants to appear neutral, wants to promote conflict, establish a strong, trusting client base, and generate income. Any plan with obvious repercussions that disturb any of those in a significant way (such as interfering in Gk's leadership) is obviously against both his known long and short term goals. We don't know why he has those goals, but we do know that he has them, at least for the moment.

Why do you assume that is unplanned?


Because predicting that all of GK's casters would leave GK is not possible. It would require that he predict Parson would violate MK rules on this exact day: we know that Predictamancy is not that accurate in the long and medium term. it also requires predicting Jillian's betrayal and capture of Ansom, causing Stanley to go against type to re-promote Parson to leave GK. With the Predictamancers appearing to be 100% aligned with Marie, the idea that Charlie has accurate predictions on Parson's actions is weak at best. Charlie is not known to have uberpowerful predictive knowledge: we can see that in his failure to predict Jillian's actions at Spacerock and the annihilation of so many of his Archons at tBfGK. Charlie has not demonstrated any excessive capacity to predict the future: he creates short and mid-term plans to gain from any possible future, ideally making it unnecessary to trust flaky Predictamancers. This specific weakness in GK right now requires powers he has not demonstrated. Charlie poured his efforts into the End Turn spell, and destroying GK's expeditionary force, placing many of his forces near Haggar in order to keep them in line against GK. This alone would re-establish his trust, though it does demonstrate access to Linking that may be threatening. By itself, it would get him re-hired against GK... making decapitation unnecessary in prior planning.

Charlie has a direct and obvious reason to want GK wiped out as a Side. And every reason to have been planning for that ever since the end of Book 1.


Yeah, and did you notice I proposed that to start this whole discussion? But not at the pricetag the other writer was claiming. Subverting Natural Allies is not something Charlie wants revealed, even if he could convince the Hobs to do it (which he couldn't), because it makes him a constant threat to every Ruler that has Natural Allies: he demonstrates that they all have Charlie's agents in their Capital, and that is a big threat they'd want to eliminate.

This is a discussion forum where anyone is allowed to put forth their theories and ideas and have them discused.


If I violated a forum rule, the moderators will make me aware. Otherwise, that's a nice opinion, and I reject it. Been here since the 6th comic when it was still on GITP. I know the limits. I didn't overstep, and I will not be dictated to by you.

And, finally, as I mentioned above; this argument works against your proposal just as much as the other.


Nope. Charlie has no clients, and needs to re-establish trust. He can't do that by demonstrating unknown powers that make him an even bigger local threat (ie. subverting Natural Allies). He has no income source to destroy at the moment. He must work to create them. The war at Spacerock and against Stanley is not generating income since no one on the Royal Side trust him to hire him, and so ending it on the Royal Side provides the possibility of income, since it restores the old status quo. Ending it on the GK side does not, since there would be only GK to work for, and they don't hire him for other reasons.

Ending it in a way that he cannot discuss or demonstrate his involvement in does not restore trust, and leaves him as the next best candidate for RCC3 attention. Charlie, if he ends the War, needs to do it in a loud and attention gathering way to get off the RCC crud list, so he can get back to being Merc. Anything subtle and hidden leaves him in his current status quo and unemployed, with the threat of RCC3 coming for him.

So, stepping in to decapitate Stanley using a flight of Archons restores the old order, confidence in his allegiances, and sets Charlie back on the road to recovery. Stepping in using Natural Allies and breaking the MK's regulations demonstrates he is a greater threat, and sets him up as the next RCC target. Charlie needs to re-establish trust, not demonstrate his Uberpowerfulness.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Archameades » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:49 pm

Nope. Charlie has no clients


I don't know if this is true, it's only the sides involved in the Royal Crown Coalition 2 battle that aren't hiring him. Which is centred in the West of Erfworld, if I recall correctly. Presumably his business in the North, East, South and Centre of Erf aren't effected.

This is for mercenary work, I'm sure many many sides without Thinkomancers will still use his thinka-communication services.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Kreistor » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:13 pm

Archameades wrote:
Nope. Charlie has no clients


I don't know if this is true, it's only the sides involved in the Royal Crown Coalition 2 battle that aren't hiring him. Which is centred in the West of Erfworld, if I recall correctly. Presumably his business in the North, East, South and Centre of Erf aren't effected.

This is for mercenary work, I'm sure many many sides without Thinkomancers will still use his thinka-communication services.


Foreign income sources are irrelevant. They cannot protect him from RCC attention, nor reestablish trust. The local political scene is all that matters for local political consequences. Please note that I said previously that his income is reduced, not eliminated. I am aware of the size of Erfworld and Charlie's universal presence as merc elsewhere. But he is very invested in this region, and the possibility of attacking him to eliminate his Arkentool has been discussed, so he is within reasonable attacking range for this set of locals. Maintaining local neutrality and goodwill is a survival requirement.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby onlyme » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:35 pm

Something else we got answered in this comic: Units can invent new words and they will match our words. So any word we know that was not there in Erfworld is no hint at all at someone else than Parson coming from this world.

(One could argue if it is just a coicidence mandated by the "everything must be familar to him" part of Parson's summoning, though I'd argue it backwards: That is just some translation to our semantics and Parson got the same filter applied we did.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby drachefly » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:15 pm

Those of you referring to a bulge under Parson's cloak, well, I'm looking at page 97 and there is none, so he must have been through by then.

Those of you thinking he never left, well, didn't the warlords left behind think he was gone, in a text update? Unless throwing his image is cheaper than just generating one, I don't see it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby bladestorm » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:31 pm

He could be using a quibble to pass the portal. No casters will be allowed to pass through the portal with the warlord. Jack is out of juice, therefore cannot cast. A caster that cannot cast is not much of a caster a'tall, nuncle. And nor shall he be casting again until he has had a chance to replenish his juice. Or.... Two people went through the portal. One was a warlord. One was not a caster.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Kreistor » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:08 pm

drachefly wrote:Those of you thinking he never left, well, didn't the warlords left behind think he was gone, in a text update? Unless throwing his image is cheaper than just generating one, I don't see it.


He sticks his head through in 72.

We know he faked his head lopped off in 73, and that definitely begins a Foolamancy. We never see a clear end to that Foolamancy or are given its parameters.

Text 56 demonstrates Wanda is definitely out of Spacerock. Phoebe can't know about Jack.

Page 91 shows the portal without Jack's butt. But neither do we ever see Jack's rear on the Jetstone side of the portal. It's strong evidence, but not conclusive. What he can try to claim, though, is that he was a Foolamancy in MK, and never left Jetstone. Unless someone can disprove the claim, it'll stick enough to dodge punishment.

More subtle would be if he did both. The image we saw was a Foolamancy, but he was somewhere else near the portal in MK. That would do double duty -- anyone bright enough to magic a check of the image would know it was fake, but wouldn't know he was really there ready to help. And it leaves him with the evidence he needs to support his claim that he was fake in MK while still in the portal.

It's not about what really happened, but what people can prove happened.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Salem » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:09 pm

bladestorm wrote:He could be using a quibble to pass the portal. No casters will be allowed to pass through the portal with the warlord. Jack is out of juice, therefore cannot cast. A caster that cannot cast is not much of a caster a'tall, nuncle. And nor shall he be casting again until he has had a chance to replenish his juice. Or.... Two people went through the portal. One was a warlord. One was not a caster.


Or more literally, Jack wasn't allowed to pass through, he passed through.

Also I just wanted to note, as much as I think there IS foreshadowing for an attack on GK proper, I don't think Charlie is doing it to eliminate GK. Parson IS GK. Killing him withers the side, unless they do another summon perfect warlord. I doubt he'd bet on that. If he has units at GK (I'm pretty sure Jill is way too far away and TV doesn't seem to be in immediate battle space for those who think Wanda would be isolated from the capital, I could be wrong, I have no clue.) it's a backup plan. Parson wins at Spacerock, then he hits GK. I don't think he's locking parson in so he can't get to GK. He must be pretty sure if parson attempted to head home through the portal the locals might be upset.

Kreistor wrote:
This is a discussion forum where anyone is allowed to put forth their theories and ideas and have them discused.


If I violated a forum rule, the moderators will make me aware. Otherwise, that's a nice opinion, and I reject it. Been here since the 6th comic when it was still on GITP. I know the limits. I didn't overstep, and I will not be dictated to by you.
[/quote]

Just because you haven't violated any rules doesn't mean you haven't be pleasant or even borderline trolly. You've out of hand dismissed people's ideas if not outright insulted them. Let’s call a spade a spade. You think well and you put good thoughts together, sometimes you commit fallacy's we all do. Just come on man try to play nice and not treat everyone like they're morons because you don't agree or because they missed some crucial flaw in their thought process.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Kreistor » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:35 pm

Salem wrote:Just because you haven't violated any rules doesn't mean you haven't be pleasant or even borderline trolly. You've out of hand dismissed people's ideas if not outright insulted them. Let’s call a spade a spade. You think well and you put good thoughts together, sometimes you commit fallacy's we all do. Just come on man try to play nice and not treat everyone like they're morons because you don't agree or because they missed some crucial flaw in their thought process.


Again, I reject your opinion. If you feel I have violated a rule, then the correct procedure is to report me, not chastise me: that's what the Report function is here for. Anything less is my discretionary choice.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby effataigus » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:47 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Salem wrote:Just because you haven't violated any rules doesn't mean you haven't be pleasant or even borderline trolly. You've out of hand dismissed people's ideas if not outright insulted them. Let’s call a spade a spade. You think well and you put good thoughts together, sometimes you commit fallacy's we all do. Just come on man try to play nice and not treat everyone like they're morons because you don't agree or because they missed some crucial flaw in their thought process.


Again, I reject your opinion. If you feel I have violated a rule, then the correct procedure is to report me, not chastise me: that's what the Report function is here for. Anything less is my discretionary choice.
For our newer forumites, this is Kriestor, one of our resident forum bullies. The key to getting something useful from him is to recognize that he will object to everything you say using belittling language wherever possible. When his arguments against what you say ridicule positions you didn't take (straw men) or are just flimsy or incoherent then there is no great need to demonstrate exactly how wrong he is... just take it as confirmation that your arguments are strong knowing that he would have used a better argument if he'd had one. He does occasionally make good points, like most of us.

Oh, and there is only one forum rule... "don't be a dick" as (not) defined by Rob. I was under the impression that he had run afoul of that rule in the past and been talked to about it, but perhaps I am confusing him with someone else.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Salem » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:48 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Salem wrote:Just because you haven't violated any rules doesn't mean you haven't be pleasant or even borderline trolly. You've out of hand dismissed people's ideas if not outright insulted them. Let’s call a spade a spade. You think well and you put good thoughts together, sometimes you commit fallacy's we all do. Just come on man try to play nice and not treat everyone like they're morons because you don't agree or because they missed some crucial flaw in their thought process.


Again, I reject your opinion. If you feel I have violated a rule, then the correct procedure is to report me, not chastise me: that's what the Report function is here for. Anything less is my discretionary choice.

I reject your opinion, as long as I do not violate any rule the correctness of my actions are a matter of opinion and largely irrelevant.

I accept that you believe a friendly atmosphere and open intellectual discourse are unwanted factors and that one opinion without disagreement is the proper path. I am assuming that you don't want these things as you actively discourage them.

You need not accept my values, but it would be logical to accept the fact that I do value them.

Furthermore, the express written rules (Well express or implied official rules really) are not the only rules that apply in this or any form of society or social grouping. There are norms and mores that tend to keep in line less serious transgressions. For example even if you do nothing that would warrant being officially removed from the community if you offend the collective badly enough there could be informal shunning, temporary or permanent where there are no responses to your post. Granted by the point anyone would care enough you'd probably have broken some rule or just been unpleasant for a very long time. Clearly the latter is not the case as you have been a member of this community for a very long time.

Consider my words an informal request that you treat the members of these forums better. You need not respect them, but you needn’t disrespect them either.

effataigus wrote: Voice of reason etc. etc.


I agree. From what I've seen you've been one of the fair and kind debaters here. I must be honest though. I've always had a problem keeping my mouth shut when people act like that. I regret this it gets me into situations I'd rather not be in. I appreciate your advice and hope that you not be offended when I can't hold it in and shove my foot squarely in my mouth.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby tgriff02 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:57 pm

effataigus wrote:For our newer forumites, this is Kriestor, one of our resident forum bullies. The key to getting something useful from him is to recognize that he will object to everything you say using belittling language wherever possible. When his arguments against what you say ridicule positions you didn't take (straw men) or are just flimsy or incoherent then there is no great need to demonstrate exactly how wrong he is... just take it as confirmation that your arguments are strong knowing that he would have used a better argument if he'd had one. He does occasionally make good points, like most of us.

Oh, and there is only one forum rule... "don't be a dick" as (not) defined by Rob. I was under the impression that he had run afoul of that rule in the past and been talked to about it, but perhaps I am confusing him with someone else.


LoL, actually; I have been reading the forums for a little over a year now, it's only my participation that has been is recent. And yes, I tagged him as a Twoll quite a while ago and really put no credence to anything he says. I just couldn't resist the urge to reference Banhammers major complaint against Haffaton's attack on Faq.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby tgriff02 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:06 pm

Salem wrote:I agree. From what I've seen you've been one of the fair and kind debaters here. I must be honest though. I've always had a problem keeping my mouth shut when people act like that. I regret this it gets me into situations I'd rather not be in. I appreciate your advice and hope that you not be offended when I can't hold it in and shove my foot squarely in my mouth.

It's actually much simpler thank you think, once you've identified them, just assume everything they say makes about as much sense as saying "The Sun is cold."
After doing that, they become fun :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Housellama » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:33 pm

Everyone hold onto your hats.

Sometimes, Kreistor has some good points. He is intelligent. He is logical, in that his arguments strictly follow the rules of logic. Sometimes he's worth listening to.

What he isn't worth is arguing with. He chooses not to abide by the implicit social contract. He uses rhetoric as a weapon rather than a tool to further open discussion. I will be the first to admit that Kreistor is excellent at what he does. Unfortunately what he does is bad for cooperation and furthering discussion.

In short, take the good, leave the bad and don't feed the Twoll. Also, if you really don't want to see him at all, the forum does have a mute function, which I will be more than happy to instruct anyone on the use of in private.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Arky » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:36 pm

Was I the only person who assumed that that isn't Jack and is in fact Jojo using a trick? Maybe I'm just paranoid....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Salem » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:42 pm

Housellama wrote:Everyone hold onto your hats. In short, take the good, leave the bad.

How can you tell everyone to ignore the facts of life? D:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Housellama » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:47 pm

Salem wrote:
Housellama wrote:Everyone hold onto your hats. In short, take the good, leave the bad.

How can you tell everyone to ignore the facts of life? D:

I'm a Buddhist, I try to see the good in everything. Either that, or I've finally gone completely loopy and the nice men in the white coats will be coming for me shortly. I'll put 50 quatloos on the latter.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby bladestorm » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:56 pm

Housellama wrote:
Salem wrote:
Housellama wrote:Everyone hold onto your hats. In short, take the good, leave the bad.

How can you tell everyone to ignore the facts of life? D:

I'm a Buddhist, I try to see the good in everything. Either that, or I've finally gone completely loopy and the nice men in the white coats will be coming for me shortly. I'll put 50 quatloos on the latter.

Put a time constraint on it, and I may take it. "Shortly" is way too vague. When Parson first entered the magick kingdom, he was going to be in Spacerock shortly thereafter. Ansom was also going to dine on the spoils of GK shortly after he dispatched the uncroaked atop the walls.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 99

Postby Housellama » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:00 pm

bladestorm wrote:Put a time constraint on it, and I may take it. "Shortly" is way too vague. When Parson first entered the magick kingdom, he was going to be in Spacerock shortly thereafter. Ansom was also going to dine on the spoils of GK shortly after he dispatched the uncroaked atop the walls.

...I asked for that, putting odds on my sanity.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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