Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby ftl » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:20 am

tgriff02 wrote:
Sent to the MK how?


By walking through the portal. It wouldn't be that hard.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby joosy » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:28 am

and Predictamancy.. arrrrr! One of the more frustrating disciplines I am sure.
Janis sees Wanda for a few seconds in the Magic Kingdom and immediately knows that Wanda is going to destroy Faq, Banhammer is going to croak, and they must produce an heir.
Janis sees Wanda for quite awhile and now does not know how things are going to play out. AARRRRGH.
Of course, this is all Jillian and Wanda's fault for fighting fate, of course.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby bladestorm » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:42 am

ftl wrote:
tgriff02 wrote:
Sent to the MK how?


By walking through the portal. It wouldn't be that hard.

Assuming they fled there before Faq fell. Once they left the city, walking through that portal becomes much more difficult.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby joosy » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:10 am

bladestorm wrote:
ftl wrote:
tgriff02 wrote:
Sent to the MK how?


By walking through the portal. It wouldn't be that hard.

Assuming they fled there before Faq fell. Once they left the city, walking through that portal becomes much more difficult.

We are assuming that with Janis they would have been able to make that decision prior/during the attack. Unless they were fated to die in the field or if their fate depended on Jillian contacting Wanda outright instead of razing Goodminton and getting herself recaptured.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby bladestorm » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:51 am

joosy wrote:We are assuming that with Janis they would have been able to make that decision prior/during the attack. Unless they were fated to die in the field or if their fate depended on Jillian contacting Wanda outright instead of razing Goodminton and getting herself recaptured.

As if predictamancers have a sterling record for saving their sides and minimizing losses. That must be an easy gig. Make a wild assumption about an unspecified future event, and when things go bad, blame other people for fighting against their fate.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby multilis » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:26 pm

bladestorm wrote:As if predictamancers have a sterling record for saving their sides and minimizing losses. That must be an easy gig. Make a wild assumption about an unspecified future event, and when things go bad, blame other people for fighting against their fate.


Not all mages are created equal. Marie Lavraie has reputation of being able to hide FAQ for long time from TV and others with help of Jack, better signomancy and less conflict/jealousy with other leadership.

If she could usually predict when Jack was needed, she may have been able to predict when attack was coming even if Jack couldn't hide FAQ.

So far her predictions have been useful, and she said "I don't know" when she didn't know rather than excuses.

It could be partially about having a predictomancer knowing how to ask simple enough questions, rather than waste juice on too vague of questions.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby teratorn » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:50 pm

The caster issue it's easy. Are they useful in combat? If not, why risk them?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby bladestorm » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:37 pm

multilis wrote:
bladestorm wrote:As if predictamancers have a sterling record for saving their sides and minimizing losses. That must be an easy gig. Make a wild assumption about an unspecified future event, and when things go bad, blame other people for fighting against their fate.


Not all mages are created equal. Marie Lavraie has reputation of being able to hide FAQ for long time from TV and others with help of Jack, better signomancy and less conflict/jealousy with other leadership.

If she could usually predict when Jack was needed, she may have been able to predict when attack was coming even if Jack couldn't hide FAQ.

So far her predictions have been useful, and she said "I don't know" when she didn't know rather than excuses.

It could be partially about having a predictamancer knowing how to ask simple enough questions, rather than waste juice on too vague of questions.

That mechanism is full of holes. Was she predicting when contact would be made with another side? If so, she was denying Fate by having Jack hide the cities.
Was she predicting where Jack would be casting his veils? If so, then what would be the use of her predicting if he was going to veil that city anyway?
Was she predicting that a unit was going to be in that hex and see Jack's veil? He was going to be veiling that city anyway with or without her predicting it.

If fate and prediction are changing die rolls on the fly to make things happen, what would be the use of having a predictamancer? Is she helping fate by telling Jack where to cast his veils, or fighting fate by having Jack deny a fated encounter? Does it matter which direction the units come from, or will they end up like Jillian in the ambush, where had she gone straight through there was no ambush, but because she veered off course, she got ambushed.

Marie is already in a vague area with her predictions. She predicted Faq would fall and Banhammer would die with it. Faq fell, but Banhammer is still alive. "Haffaton will be the agent of Faq's destruction." And now her sovereign is bedding down with the designated heir of that side. Make a wild prediction, and when things go poorly, it's because someone else interpreted the prediction incorrectly or fought against their Fate. It's never that predictamancers are essentially useless and do more harm to a side than good.

"The biggest opponnt to going through a portal is now urging me to go through. Is it a trap?" "Ov cos it is." Blazing insight into the future with that one.
"Will I win?" "Yes, eventually" She must have studied for YEARS to pull that prediction off.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby bladestorm » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:39 pm

teratorn wrote:The caster issue it's easy. Are they useful in combat? If not, why risk them?

So which of Faq's casters are not useful in combat?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby drachefly » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:13 pm

I suspect the signamancer would have the most difficult time capitalizing on their abilities - except on a strategic scale. Still wouldn't be useless.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby ftl » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:23 pm

bladestorm wrote:That mechanism is full of holes. Was she predicting when contact would be made with another side? If so, she was denying Fate by having Jack hide the cities.
Was she predicting where Jack would be casting his veils? If so, then what would be the use of her predicting if he was going to veil that city anyway?
Was she predicting that a unit was going to be in that hex and see Jack's veil? He was going to be veiling that city anyway with or without her predicting it.


She was predicting which hexes the enemy would be in and when. Pretty simple. Then you can have your units not end turn in those hexes, or if it's a city, then have Jack veil it.

If fate and prediction are changing die rolls on the fly to make things happen, what would be the use of having a predictamancer?


To plan around things you know are going to happen! Like, say, if you know where an enemy is going to be, you can veil there.

Is she helping fate by telling Jack where to cast his veils, or fighting fate by having Jack deny a fated encounter?


Neither.

Does it matter which direction the units come from, or will they end up like Jillian in the ambush, where had she gone straight through there was no ambush, but because she veered off course, she got ambushed.


What is predicted will happen, just like Jillian in the ambush. As long as the predictamancer has enough control to answer only questions whose answers are useful, you're in good shape. Marie seems to be good at what she does, Delphie wasn't.

Marie is already in a vague area with her predictions. She predicted Faq would fall and Banhammer would die with it. Faq fell, but Banhammer is still alive. "Haffaton will be the agent of Faq's destruction." And now her sovereign is bedding down with the designated heir of that side. Make a wild prediction, and when things go poorly, it's because someone else interpreted the prediction incorrectly or fought against their Fate. It's never that predictamancers are essentially useless and do more harm to a side than good.


FAQ has spent what, thousands of turns hidden now? You can't argue with results. FAQ has lived longer than most sides we know of.

Even in this seemingly bad situation, we know that FAQ will make it out just fine!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby onlyme » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:24 pm

drachefly wrote:I suspect the signamancer would have the most difficult time capitalizing on their abilities - except on a strategic scale. Still wouldn't be useless.


There might be also warpaint or intel. But this is a old discussion. See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6259&p=78499#p78499
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby joosy » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:28 pm

Given the love/hate for Predictamancers, we now need a new character: Skeptic James Randi who will offer a million schmuckers to any Predictamancer who can make predictions that are statistically better than what you would expect by guessing at random!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby multilis » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:53 pm

http://www.erfworld.com/2012/01/inner-p ... isode-020/

Example of how effective a predictomancer is on very limited questions in combat. Asking whether each hex will be visited by an enemy in next turn may work similar, perhaps having a gifted caster helps.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby wrecan » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:27 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote:Great update, I must say casters talking about their disciplines and casting in general are some of my favourite parts of Erfworld, I for example never considered the buds anything but Flower power yet Jack tells us that they're Foolamancy related.

I don't think buds are foolamancy related except that they induce hallucinations through Life, and hallucinations are foolamancy-related (and Foolamancy is also related to Life). I also wonder if a foolamancer can mess with people's dreams?

Four classes of magic relate to Life. I bet they each have connections to dreams...

Hocus Pocus: Interpret the meaning of dreams
Eyemancy: Observe someone's dreams
Hippiemancy: Cause someone to dream
Stagemancy: Alter someone's dreams
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby name lips » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:48 pm

Predictamancy must be the most infuriating discipline for a Caster.

The less detail they share, the more people complain about how useless they are.

The more detail they share, the more people complain that they don't have free will.

As far as we can tell, Predictimancers cannot be wrong. They cannot Predict something (with a capital "P") and subsequently have that event not occur. They seem to be able to glimpse the pre-existing Fate of a unit -- but only if such a Fate exists. Wanda was Fated to attune to an Arkentool, which she correctly interpreted as meaning that she would be uncroakable until such time as the Prediction came true. No matter how dire things were, she was never in fear of her own life. But even though her brother died at the hand of Olive, he was not Fated to die, and Olive wasn't Fated to kill him. Those events were unPredictable, and subject to free will and the decisions of the individuals involved.

Also, Predictimancers seem to have no particular skill or ability at interpreting their own Predictions.

So as a Ruler with a Predictimancer, how do you use them in a useful way? I'm guessing you keep the questions short-term, simple, and specific. Keep the questions yes-no. That would probably result in the most useful answers. "Will a non-Faq unit enter our Battlespace before our next Turn." Don't ask what Side it is, or what hex, or anything else. If the answer is "no" then you're secure. If the answer is "yes" then you pull all units into the cities, have your Foolamancer veil your cities (probably using all his juice for the entire turn), and scout with your Lookamancer to get more specific and useful information.

If your question for a Predicitmancer is too vague, you risk getting a "yes, eventually" (or otherwise useless) answer. There is something Fated, but there's no way to know exactly what. I'm assuming an "I don't know" answer is actually very useful -- it means nothing is Fated, which means free will and individual decisions will rule the event.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby drachefly » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:28 pm

It doesn't need to be short-term or binary. It does need to be something where the result is something that guides your action. Don't ask for your future degree of success, for instance. That's useless either way. Ask for information you'll need to succeed. Use them as lookamancers, basically.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby bladestorm » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:35 pm

name lips wrote:Predictamancy must be the most infuriating discipline for a Caster.

The less detail they share, the more people complain about how useless they are.

The more detail they share, the more people complain that they don't have free will.

As far as we can tell, Predictimancers cannot be wrong. They cannot Predict something (with a capital "P") and subsequently have that event not occur. They seem to be able to glimpse the pre-existing Fate of a unit -- but only if such a Fate exists. Wanda was Fated to attune to an Arkentool, which she correctly interpreted as meaning that she would be uncroakable until such time as the Prediction came true. No matter how dire things were, she was never in fear of her own life. But even though her brother died at the hand of Olive, he was not Fated to die, and Olive wasn't Fated to kill him. Those events were unPredictable, and subject to free will and the decisions of the individuals involved.

Also, Predictimancers seem to have no particular skill or ability at interpreting their own Predictions.

So as a Ruler with a Predictimancer, how do you use them in a useful way? I'm guessing you keep the questions short-term, simple, and specific. Keep the questions yes-no. That would probably result in the most useful answers. "Will a non-Faq unit enter our Battlespace before our next Turn." Don't ask what Side it is, or what hex, or anything else. If the answer is "no" then you're secure. If the answer is "yes" then you pull all units into the cities, have your Foolamancer veil your cities (probably using all his juice for the entire turn), and scout with your Lookamancer to get more specific and useful information.

If your question for a Predicitmancer is too vague, you risk getting a "yes, eventually" (or otherwise useless) answer. There is something Fated, but there's no way to know exactly what. I'm assuming an "I don't know" answer is actually very useful -- it means nothing is Fated, which means free will and individual decisions will rule the event.

I don't think it was Marie at all that was making those determinations for Jack. Predictamancy deals with events that will appen regardless of what actions you take to prevent them. Using a foolamancer to veil cities that are Predicted to be encountered would be resisting Fate. Faq had a powerful Lookamancer, and a Mathemancer, and a Signamancer. Lookamancer to scout the next two hexes in any direction (and that mountainous territory had to eat up a lot of move), Mathemancer to determine odds of which approach would be used, and signamancer to make things that look like regular landscape from above (camouflage and cover) or at least make them not look like a city Combine the signmancer's camouflage with the foolamancer's distraction (something shiny over to the right when the city would be on the left of the approach through the gap in the mountains). Keep the shockamancer on hand to deal with wandering barbarian units or animal units with some prepped traps. Odd for a Side with an extraordinarily high number of casters to only use a predictamancer and a foolamancer for their defenses and let the others just idle/rot at Court. Then again, the account of Faq's defenses came from Jillian, who only got along with a handful of people at Faq.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby Nakedkali » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:37 pm

Marie has an accent in Love is a Battlefield (the comic) but not in this episode of Inner Peace TSP?

Maybe this is not the author being all exotic with this character. Maybe she loses her ability to speak properly, and we're about to find out how.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 059

Postby 0beron » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:43 pm

Nakedkali wrote:Marie has an accent in Love is a Battlefield (the comic) but not in this episode of Inner Peace TSP?
Maybe this is not the author being all exotic with this character. Maybe she loses her ability to speak properly, and we're about to find out how.

Good observation...she does say "wah" instead of "were" once, but otherwise she spoke normally. Not sure if this a linguistic slip by Rob not doing that accent properly, or if it is a deliberate shift.
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