Book 2 – Page 101

[effataigus]

One could argue that the Fate-hack spell allowed her to die because it knew she would be brought back.

Not just one could... one has. Sylvia.

But it would be much more interesting for Parson to negotiate their surrender, if that could somehow be done.

I disagree... it would be very strange for Parson to mess up his side as badly as he has in an effort to get to the front lines only to negotiate a surrender. If he does, then his actions would be responsible for a ton of lost life on the part of GK, since they could have just taken Tram's deal at the outset.

Are there any rules for forceable capture? Making Ace a prisoner will be easy once his golems are spent, because he is immobilized. For the others, is there some kind of non-lethal capture attack in the Erf rules?

Yep. We've seen both Jillian and Ansom be forcibly captured by dwagons and a megalogwiff respectively.

[(name here)]

I'm somewhat dubious about the fate armor spell, but that wouldn't necessarily mean Sylvia dies. She's a pretty high-level warlord and hasn't gotten terribly beat up yet. She might be able to tank the explosion without any magical aid.

[Squall83]

Thanks for the explanations, everyone. I agree that it would be interesting to see Parson have Ace create the weapons we know, plus science fiction. Then GK's units would probably focus more on ranged fighting, because in contrast to many many RPG's, in reality ranged weapons are a better choice than close combat ones. Also it would be nice if some units could operate a Gundam Suit that wields the power of multiple turn's juice.

One could argue that the Fate-hack spell allowed her to die because it knew she would be brought back.

Not just one could... one has. Sylvia.

In that case we're dealing with a really powerful Carnymancy deal here. Something which doesn't happen every day. I guess Jefftichew lost the love of his life af TBFGK. But I still prefer to believe that this deal - powerful as it may be - can be overcome by something as inevitable as a volcano eruption, but since she was decrypted by an Arkentool she retained all of her powers, so the deal was back in action.

[Infidel]

Probably the only way to kill Sylvia is to get her alone, that way she has no one else to shuffle her fate debt on.

I'm liking Sylvia less and less, possibly a deliberate gambit by Rob. Make her easier to kill off if a significant portion of the audience isn't rooting for her.

[vrellum]

I'll be very happy is Silvia is croaked. The impenetrable fate armor gets old very fast. I think the reds should take some damage from the explosion. After all they're immune to fire, but there was a lot more going on there than a fire. Someone set off a bomb and asbestos might not burn, but you can sure as heck blow it up.

[the_tick_rules]

who says she's croaked? I didn't see her dusting.

[vrellum]

She's not croaked yet. But we (at least I and some others) can hope.

[Sixty]

I'm still not convinced she has official fate armor, just that she thinks she does. Jojo saved her once and she had a bunch of close calls but I wouldn't rule out that she doesn't actually have fate armor. Granted she is a well liked character which gives her a form of fate armor writing-wise.

[effataigus]

who says she's croaked? I didn't see her dusting.

Indeed we don't... though if you put that explosion in the last panel in perspective, it is hard to imagine anyone surviving that. Looks to me like that thing had a 5 acre blast, and she couldn't have been more than fifty feet from the epicenter.

That said, I think she will survive it, but...

[Talisid]

I think people are ignoring the very real possibility that Silvia only THINKS she's invincible because of a streak of good luck.

Just because Jeff rigged the rules to bring her back from the brink of death once doesn't mean she's still being protected by some kind of fate magic or long-lasting Carnymancy.

[Vreejack]

I think people are ignoring the very real possibility that Silvia only THINKS she's invincible because of a streak of good luck.

Just because Jeff rigged the rules to bring her back from the brink of death once doesn't mean she's still being protected by some kind of fate magic or long-lasting Carnymancy.

There has been a huge set-up showing exactly how the fate armor is still in effect. It includes the odd stone that Ossimer saw fall from the tower and the last words of Archer, who claims (in the author's voice) to have almost certainly died from a Luckamancy repayment. In fact, there is no real reason to assume that Sylvia's fate armor is no longer in effect without an explanation as to why it would suddenly be missing. Whatever Jeftichew did to her, it seems that her armor is inexhaustible, which seems over-powered to me and suggests a thinkamancer link with a luckamancer, probably a trimancer link that Jo-jo finagled for a favor.

Carneymancer/luckamancer would seem to do it. The only question I have is to whether the Luckamancy repayments must go to her own side or could they go to anyone in the vicinity? The latter seems more likely given what Clay Dice said about Luckamancy, which is grave for Ace.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

is it just me, or are there an increasing number of reasons for why Parson should defect to Jetstone at this point? He's seperated from Stanley and Wanda, so he could turn while still leaving them as the opposition. He's chief warlord with personal command of the battle for spacerock, so he could probably order his local troops to turn with him. Jack is with him and would probably be willing to turn, so we get to keep our favorite foolamancer. Turning would put him on the same side as Ace, which is a match made in heaven. Turning is also the easiest way to unite the garrison in order to fight the fire before it gets out of control.

King Slately might agree to declare war on Charlie, which Parson could use to justify turning, as he would be able to prosecute an intelligent war against his major enemy, which Stanley would never permit him to do. Trammennis might sign a non-agression pact, which would soften the blow of betraying Gobwin Knob. And if spacerock were restored as the capital, or Parson was allowed to travel to Jetstones alternate capital, Parson could invite thinkamancers in from the magic kingdom to discuss the charlie scenario. Maggie and Sizemore are still in the magic kingdom, and might be convinced to turn as well, joining Parson and Jetstone; Stanley the tool isn't in a position to stop them right now.

I'm not saying that Parson WILL turn, or even that he should turn... It just seems that there are an increasing number of reasons and advantages if he WERE to decide to turn.

While Parson turning/betraying/changing the nature of the conflict by changing loyalties at some point seems far, far from impossible, I can't see that happening in these circumstances. Slately bears a great deal of animosity towards GK. His behavior towards Charlie earlier was one of philosophical differences - the belief Charlie was in on Toolism and all that. For now he and Charlie are united against a common foe - a foe Slately dislikes with a passion.

Deciding to stop the war against GK that still poses a huge threat to Erf and Jetstone as we know in order to start one against the one guy with an arkentool that isn't bent on conquering Jetstone doesn't seem like something Slately would go for.

Now if Parson agreed to turn to help fight a war against GK (and Charlescomm) he might be interested, but it would be tempered by the fact he's accepted Trem is in charge now so he might not feel he has the right to make such a deal. Because...

As an alternate scenario, he could even found a third side as an 'open city'. Either Parson or King Slately breaks off from their original side, creating a third side with sworn neutrality towards both parties in the conflict. Everyone in the garrison is ordered by their commanders to turn to the new, third side. Parson or King Slately is the ruler, and the other is Heir. Not sure who would get the formal title of chief warlord in that scenario. The open city of spacerock agrees to provide troops and supplies to whichever faction exerts force majeure over the city, and spends its time exporting mercenary military advisors trained at Parson's version of Officer Candidate School, and planning for an inevitable alliance to defeat charlie.

...no matter what happens this Slately can only last till the end of this turn. As a dittomancy doppelganger he is going to disappear very soon.

Same for the ideas of Slately deciding to make a truce/alliance with GK in order to stop Spacerock burning. There doesn't seem to be anything in that for him, he knows he's dead and the city is as good as lost. Whereas letting it burn could kill the guy Charlie says is the real threat and cause for Jetstone's suffering, as well as wiping out a lot of GK's best units.

Before Fakely and Ace attacked the garrison, the only reason GK hadn't won the city was because Ace remained undiscovered and alive.

Now, the only units present are the ones involved in that attack. I think all the Jetstone units in the courtyard just croaked. Which means the only ones left are Fakely and his entourage in the throne room.

If Parson's little group can croak them, and it should be a fairly small-scale engagement, then they win the city and can put out the fire.

I'm thinking how easy it is to put the fire out might depend on a few things, like whether the number of troops you can put into fighting it affects it (one would think putting a hundred guys on fire fighting would be more effective than five), and in this case whether a massive explosion has helped hurry the uncontrolled fire towards inferno. If it has, and has taken out any large number of GK forces in the Atrium then Parson might be in charge of a fire fighting force consisting of him, Jack and a hand full of decrypted, which might be insufficient to bring it under control in the time they have left to do so.

Why was the king looking sad at the doll?

The King was very fond of the former dollmancer of Jetstone, Holly Shortcake. I think it would be fair to say he loved her.

The doll was his sole remaining keepsake of her. It would be a bit like coming home to find some treasured possession (treasured because it belonged to/was made by your dearly beloved departed) had been destroyed by vandals.

[Lamech]

I think people are ignoring the very real possibility that Silvia only THINKS she's invincible because of a streak of good luck.

Just because Jeff rigged the rules to bring her back from the brink of death once doesn't mean she's still being protected by some kind of fate magic or long-lasting Carnymancy.

There has been a huge set-up showing exactly how the fate armor is still in effect. It includes the odd stone that Ossimer saw fall from the tower and the last words of Archer, who claims (in the author's voice) to have almost certainly died from a Luckamancy repayment. In fact, there is no real reason to assume that Sylvia's fate armor is no longer in effect without an explanation as to why it would suddenly be missing. Whatever Jeftichew did to her, it seems that her armor is inexhaustible, which seems over-powered to me and suggests a thinkamancer link with a luckamancer, probably a trimancer link that Jo-jo finagled for a favor.

Its not really all that overpowered, especially if you aren't careful with it. Sure its great for Sylvia. But for her side? She charges into overwhelming danger and fate saves her stupid ass a few hundred times. And all that debt gets shifted off to other units on her side. If she ever gets into a crappy situation she basically becomes a voodoo doll for her entire side. Not actually all that great.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Also: Could anyone please explain to me why a lot of people here seem to think that the Ace/Parson pairing would be very great? I have no clue why it would be any better than any other pairing, e.g. Wanda tells Parson about her story with Haffaton and then he pairs up with Janis, because she sees him as a little flame when the whole world is a forest hex, so she wants to prevent Armageddon by giving him options to win battles in peace. He's got to like the idea of preventing attacks in a hex for a whole turn. Maybe it can be combined with some green dwagons casually breathing or maybe firefighting becomes impossible as well.

I think it is a number of things - the "rule of cool": since lots of people like jet packs and light sabers could be a big one.

In addition - conceptually. Parson has a head full of modern world knowledge, but he is in a fantasy world - swords, bows and arrows. He might not realize the things a dollmancer can make (actual Kings don't, just relaying on them for golems). Suddenly there is a guy making guns and grenades around, whose creations can turn a guy Oss thought he could kill with a kick to his shin into a very dangerous fighter. Parson has to work hard to get people understand his ideas, while Ace is an outside the (Erf) box innovator who would probably work well with Parson. He's probably the only person Parson could, say, describe a machine gun to who would both get the concept and be enthusiastic about trying to make one that would be capable of similar things as the real world one.

Plus if the things he make linger for any amount of time it makes units a lot more dangerous. Got yourself a high level warlord? Give him a jetpack and raygun and you've got a high level warlord who now has comparable abilities to an Archon (leadership, shockmancy, flight and the ability to be a great melee fighter). A stabber could be a lot more dangerous if he could throw grenades etc

Course the potential could be exaggerated. Seems to happen with every new caster we see (with this caster type Parson could rule the world!) But we have seen now that not many Rulers are very innovative with their casters. You had the dangerous experiments of the Haffaton Thinkamancer, Charlie and Parson. Not many other people. Personally if dollmancy is an undervalued form of magic with great potential I'd be interested in seeing it evolve as a necessity because of the threat Parson/GK poses, not just another thing to add to GK's momentum (that is the only dollmancer making guns and jetpacks being on GK's payroll). Gk's enemies trying new things to win, as opposed to Parson having the ability to gun down guys still running around with swords (which challenges Parson - "they're learning, starting to think outside the box, this could be hard). That said GK might have lost their momentum after this...

[MonteCristo]

Parson's should probably kicking himself for having Sylvia on his short list for potential Chief Warlord's. Not only for her call to burn down the capitol and thus put them all at risk, but she also ended up misusing the dwagons... she mixed the greens and reds together to make their attacks more potent, but didn't take care enough to keep them far enough part so that they would not blow up like they just did. Honestly, not seemingly like such a good choice right now.

I think people are ignoring the very real possibility that Silvia only THINKS she's invincible because of a streak of good luck.

Just because Jeff rigged the rules to bring her back from the brink of death once doesn't mean she's still being protected by some kind of fate magic or long-lasting Carnymancy.

There has been a huge set-up showing exactly how the fate armor is still in effect. It includes the odd stone that Ossimer saw fall from the tower and the last words of Archer, who claims (in the author's voice) to have almost certainly died from a Luckamancy repayment. In fact, there is no real reason to assume that Sylvia's fate armor is no longer in effect without an explanation as to why it would suddenly be missing. Whatever Jeftichew did to her, it seems that her armor is inexhaustible, which seems over-powered to me and suggests a thinkamancer link with a luckamancer, probably a trimancer link that Jo-jo finagled for a favor.

Its not really all that overpowered, especially if you aren't careful with it. Sure its great for Sylvia. But for her side? She charges into overwhelming danger and fate saves her stupid ass a few hundred times. And all that debt gets shifted off to other units on her side. If she ever gets into a crappy situation she basically becomes a voodoo doll for her entire side. Not actually all that great.

This is true... As Archer pointed out, there's a good chance his own croaking was a result of luckamancy repayment... Ace was originally gonna use that boulder on Slyvia; that boulder might have been fated to dust Syvlia if he used it, but in turn archer might have been successful in croaking the king thus ruining Charlie's whole plan and helping insure parson's victory. By sparing Sylvia's life from that boulder by having it sent to Archer instead she may in turn have given bad luck to not just Archer, but to Parson and Gk. Either that, or Archer's fall was repayment for all those arrows that missed Sylvia before. In either case, Sylvia got to live, but others were royally screwed over. Heck, Ace's successful attack on the green's which caused that explosion that probably took out quite a few GK troops, may have also been a result of Sylvia's good luck coming back... can be hard to tell what's luck and what's not. While the magic might keep her alive, it could actually be screwing over her side in this battle.

[Brucester]

I think this may have already been raised but aren't Red Dwagons immune to fire? Are their riders are then also immune to fire? I can see Sylvia potentially being squashed by falling debris or suffering explosive damage but while she's sitting on a Red Dwagon I don't think she's going to burn to death.

I personally can't see Parson surrendering. He is bound by Duty, and I doubt Duty will allow him to do something tricky like that. I also think that he'll fail if he tries because Slately is convinced that Parson is the embodiment of evil. Slately won't deal with him. I think Slately is convinced that he's going to die, so will spill his guts and gloat over Parson.

So, very few options:
- Negotiate with Slately. Unlikely to succeed as he wants Deep and Crispy Parson.
- Get onto a Red Dwagon. This would work if the rider is immune to Inferno. Parson would surely know whether that is the case or not. I personally think this isn't the answer though. It's too obvious and it would be an unsatisfactory escape for Parson.
- Negotiate with Ace. Possibly. He wants to see his friend again. If Clone Slately vanishes I can see Ace doing a deal. He's not 'in' on the Charlie/JS plan to croak Parson.
- Fight the Fire. Can't see that happening while Parson is separated from Sylvia - she's too keen to create an Inferno and Parson isn't in the right location to tell her to do otherwise. Also won't happen while JS controls the garrison, and hence not a possible option until Clone Slately vanishes.

I think Parson will meet Slately, Slately will gloat then vanish, leaving neither side in control of the garrison. But with Clone-Slately gone, at least Parson can then negotiate..... With Ace.

[effataigus]

Got yourself a high level warlord? Give him a jetpack and raygun and you've got a high level warlord who now has comparable abilities to an Archon (leadership, shockmancy, flight and the ability to be a great melee fighter). A stabber could be a lot more dangerous if he could throw grenades etc

Not to imply that balance was a serious concern when Erfworld was created, but most of these Connecticut Yankee fantasies we are seeing here would be negated, or at least made approximately equivalent to golems, if there is upkeep on magical items. Admittedly, Parson would be the only one who knew how to fight with (and against) modern weaponry, so maybe a slight advantage there.

Mostly, I think the same argument you make for it could be used against this happening: rule of cool. That **** was done by Mark Twain. Idea was old before WWI.

EDIT: HAH... how's this for hypocrisy... I realized shortly after writing this post that the story I've been writing has strong elements of exactly this in it.

Its not really all that overpowered, especially if you aren't careful with it. Sure its great for Sylvia. But for her side?

Don't think we know enough to judge at this point. If the spell is easy to come by, then every side out there should cast that on their Overlord. Admittedly, it would have been a lil hilarious if Jeffti had done so... I'm trying to imagine how hard pressed fate would be to pass off Queen Bea's death on someone who she wasn't going to kill in the process anyway.

[cheeseaholic]

Well if you could stick spells like that on people, doing so on warlords is a good idea. Assuming they don't go mad with power anyway....

[bladestorm]

I think this may have already been raised but aren't Red Dwagons immune to fire? Are their riders are then also immune to fire? I can see Sylvia potentially being squashed by falling debris or suffering explosive damage but while she's sitting on a Red Dwagon I don't think she's going to burn to death.

I personally can't see Parson surrendering. He is bound by Duty, and I doubt Duty will allow him to do something tricky like that. I also think that he'll fail if he tries because Slately is convinced that Parson is the embodiment of evil. Slately won't deal with him. I think Slately is convinced that he's going to die, so will spill his guts and gloat over Parson.

So, very few options:
- Negotiate with Slately. Unlikely to succeed as he wants Deep and Crispy Parson.
- Get onto a Red Dwagon. This would work if the rider is immune to Inferno. Parson would surely know whether that is the case or not. I personally think this isn't the answer though. It's too obvious and it would be an unsatisfactory escape for Parson.
- Negotiate with Ace. Possibly. He wants to see his friend again. If Clone Slately vanishes I can see Ace doing a deal. He's not 'in' on the Charlie/JS plan to croak Parson.
- Fight the Fire. Can't see that happening while Parson is separated from Sylvia - she's too keen to create an Inferno and Parson isn't in the right location to tell her to do otherwise. Also won't happen while JS controls the garrison, and hence not a possible option until Clone Slately vanishes.

I think Parson will meet Slately, Slately will gloat then vanish, leaving neither side in control of the garrison. But with Clone-Slately gone, at least Parson can then negotiate..... With Ace.

The riders aren't immune to fire. GK had to send in a riderless red to claim the garrison after they torched the city currently known as Dwagoncon (Book 2, Klog 5). Also, (Book 2 Page 86) the only units Sylvia expects to survive are the reds and herself. No mention of, 'we mount as many of our highest units as possible onto the reds', just the reds, unless the fire kills all Jetstone units in the garrison first, at which point GK units can move into the adjacent regions -- flyers to airspace and nonflyers to the walls.

[bladestorm]

Well if you could stick spells like that on people, doing so on warlords is a good idea. Assuming they don't go mad with power anyway....

That's expecting consistency from the rules of Carnymancy, and there may not be such a thing.

Alternatively, Sylvia may be a unit type equivalent of the Dark Knight/dreadknight/antipaladin. In Warbarons, such a unit negates the bonuses of opponents. They don't so much as make their own side better, they make the other side worse. Most warlords seem to be of the Paladin type of hero from Warbarons, where they have Leadership and apply bonuses to their own troops. The 'trade' Jojo did may have been her unit type, changing her from a basic stabber to a warlord antipaladin, transferring her old memories into a newly popping warlord.