Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Iranon » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:56 am

Well, we only have Jillian's account. She and her father may consider each other fools without checking for contrary evidence, simply because their outlook and priorities are so different.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby bladestorm » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:03 am

Cubbins wrote:I guess 'Arkensaw' was too obvious.

Oh well, shoes it is!

The Saw is still a possibility. "Four known Arkentools" doesn't mean that there would only ever be four, or that the four would always be the same. I still like the theory tat there are more than four, and the others just haven't been discovered yet. Or, if there are only four at a time, then the Shoes were one of the four at one time, but may not be part of the current four. The Hammer seems to be a relatively new addition, having been found by Stanley presumably not long before the start of Book 1. The Shoes could have been removed from the list once Judy does whatever she is going to do with them. The shoes fade away, and when they repop, they are in a new form. Maybe even the Hammer. If the Dish ever gets truly lost to Erfworld, it may repop as the Saw.

They could be like the Fantastic Four. Always just four of them, except when they temporarily expand out to five but keep the team name. Usually it is Mr Fantastic, Thing, Invisible Woman, and Human Torch. Sometimes it is She-Hulk instead of Thing, sometimes they include Spiderman, and at various points, one of the team members is replaced by some other superhero. At some point, the Fantastic Four consisted of some variant of Spiderman, Hulk, Wolverine, and Ghost Rider.

Another theory, though. Maybe Jillian does know what happened to the Arkenshoes. A lot of speculation went into Queen Jillian's outfit, and the way it was rendered. Maybe for Judy, they appeared as ruby slippers, but for Jillian, they were glittery gold slippers. Or a tophat (Hat magic aligned). Or her bustier (more naughtymancy, or date-a-mancy).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby sanjmerchant » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:10 am

<snip>
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Salem » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:17 pm

WarFAN wrote:
vrellum wrote:It's looking more like Banhammer is just a fool. Very disappointing.


Banhammer was pictured as a very obvious fool from his very first appereance:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F082.jpg

Thinking about him as some kind of... Yoda or Mr. Fantastic or something like that has always seemed to me as one of the wildest and unfathomable theories of this forum. Usually, the obvious is just true.


Are we talking about the same Mr. Fantstic? The one who was going to shoot his own son despite his sobbing wife's protests? The one who sided against Captain America in a competition of moral rightness? The one who was mostly okay with torturing other superheroes into suicide because it was for the greater good?

Though I also think fool should be expanded upon. Believing a bubble side could work is "foolish" only in the way that a hippie mancer striving for peace on erf is foolish. His self bloated ego loving self is foolish in most senses though.


As for the idea that Wanda would have a set of arkenshoes, it doesn't fit the narative. She goes through all this effort to get her hands on a tool whether she can attune or not and she wants to get all the attuned together. Why hasn't everyone in GK tried on the shoes if that's the case? It just seems to stretched. But there could very well be a reason.

Also, I think considering the style of Mr. Baldur's work, there are more than 4 arkentools. Why would a stupid meal which just spits out facts say "Known." More so why would an author use known unless he wanted speculation that there were more than 4? So it could be a red herring. There's that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby WarFAN » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:55 pm

Are we talking about the same Mr. Fantstic?


Yeah. The guy with the brains, as opposed to Banjammer´s philosophic babbling (does this last word exist? English is not my first lenguaje...).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Salem » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:34 pm

WarFAN wrote:
Are we talking about the same Mr. Fantstic?


Yeah. The guy with the brains, as opposed to Banjammer´s philosophic babbling (does this last word exist? English is not my first lenguaje...).

It does in fact exist.
BanJolnir is a fool. Agreed. So's Mr. F though in the same way. They're smart, and they think that makes them flawless.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby ftl » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:46 pm

If Banhammer's just an idiot, how come his side's stayed alive for so long?

It almost starts to seem like the rulers don't matter at all. The success of a side never seems to have much relation at all to the governing ability of its ruler.

...do we have any example of a ruler who isn't mostly incompetent whenever we see him actually make decisions?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby drachefly » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:55 pm

Charlie. Don King has had good moments.

I think a lot of their doing badly lately is because everything has just been shaken up severely.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby bladestorm » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:01 pm

Salem wrote:
WarFAN wrote:
Are we talking about the same Mr. Fantstic?


Yeah. The guy with the brains, as opposed to Banjammer´s philosophic babbling (does this last word exist? English is not my first lenguaje...).

It does in fact exist.
BanJolnir is a fool. Agreed. So's Mr. F though in the same way. They're smart, and they think that makes them flawless.

Though Mr Fantastic has used his brain to save the planet and the universe on several occasions, that doesn't make him smart. Part of his power set is to wrap his brain around a particular problem. That solution works for that problem, and that problem alone. His intellect pretty much ended with the creation of fabric made from unstable molecules. Such outfits are a staple of the superhero community, but Reed has since produced only Deus Ex Machinas -- used once and then forgotten. He capitalized early on a few inventions, and then started practicing tinkering dilettantism. Lots of money, secluded away from normal people, doing whatever he damn well pleases. If he were as smart as he claims he is, he'd have devised cures for diseases galore, helped society in numerous ways, managed to cure the Thing (or more optimally, alter his appearance while maintaining his powers), found ways to preempt most of the disasters he has to save the world from (like a cloaking devise to hide the energy signatures of the planet from Galactus), and moved on from "what can I build to beat up this bad guy" to "this bad guy has a need that is being unfulfilled and he is using violence to satisfy that need -- what can I build that will make it so that his need is fulfilled without such violence...hmm, now extrapolate that out to at least the fifth degree to prevent any one-shot use and to be able to perpetuate the usefulness of it....carry the one...cross reference for a broader aspect of usefulness...."

So that matches up with Banhammer in many ways. He has secluded himself away from where he is actually needed. Banhammer exists in a tiny bubble Side that has no war, and he promotes a philosophy of peace. meanwhile the entire rest of the world is based around perpetual warfare. If he really wanted to promote peace, he'd be out in the world acting as a traveling diplomat promoting peace between warring factions and finding solutions that don't involve battlefields or bloodshed. He has the casters necessary to spread his philosophy far and wide, picking and choosing which conflicts can be resolved and avoiding the ones are Fated to end in ruin.

Do some minor changes to the 'game', and give Parson the same casters old Faq had, and make the objective to spread a philosophy of peace to as many Sides as possible.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby youngstormlord » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:53 pm

Salem wrote:
WarFAN wrote:
Are we talking about the same Mr. Fantstic?


Yeah. The guy with the brains, as opposed to Banjammer´s philosophic babbling (does this last word exist? English is not my first lenguaje...).

It does in fact exist.
BanJolnir is a fool. Agreed. So's Mr. F though in the same way. They're smart, and they think that makes them flawless.

There's a trope for that http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... sIsUseless.
Don't click on this link, you might feel cheated if you do.
Hint:
Spoiler: show
It's my fanfiction. :)


My erf PC game (first test version): Jack Attack Update: Gone after fall of megaupload. Update2: Uploaded again on another hosting. Give it a go.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby splintermute » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:51 pm

bladestorm wrote:BanJolnir is a fool. Agreed. So's Mr. F though in the same way. They're smart, and they think that makes them flawless.
Though Mr Fantastic has used his brain to save the planet and the universe on several occasions, that doesn't make him smart. Part of his power set is to wrap his brain around a particular problem. That solution works for that problem, and that problem alone. His intellect pretty much ended with the creation of fabric made from unstable molecules. Such outfits are a staple of the superhero community, but Reed has since produced only Deus Ex Machinas -- used once and then forgotten. He capitalized early on a few inventions, and then started practicing tinkering dilettantism. Lots of money, secluded away from normal people, doing whatever he damn well pleases. If he were as smart as he claims he is, he'd have devised cures for diseases galore, helped society in numerous ways, managed to cure the Thing (or more optimally, alter his appearance while maintaining his powers), found ways to preempt most of the disasters he has to save the world from (like a cloaking devise to hide the energy signatures of the planet from Galactus), and moved on from "what can I build to beat up this bad guy" to "this bad guy has a need that is being unfulfilled and he is using violence to satisfy that need -- what can I build that will make it so that his need is fulfilled without such violence...hmm, now extrapolate that out to at least the fifth degree to prevent any one-shot use and to be able to perpetuate the usefulness of it....carry the one...cross reference for a broader aspect of usefulness...."


Bladestorm, have you read Planetary by Warren Ellis? He has a take on the Fantastic Four that you might enjoy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby wrecan » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:59 pm

ftl wrote:If Banhammer's just an idiot, how come his side's stayed alive for so long?

He had a good defense set up, primarily utilizing Jack and Marie, and they aren't idiots. And Jillian may be an idiot, but she's a profitable idiot. And Banhammer was easily distracted by his philosophers' circle. In a similar vein, Gobwin Knob really took off when Parson convinced Stanley to spend less time governing and more time roaming the Minty Mountains collecting dwagons. When you have a foolish Ruler, keep him happy and distracted while the smart people run things. And it was working fine until Haffaton came a'knocking. And then Banhammer stuck his stupid little fingers into it, instead of listening to Jack and Marie's counsel, and almost got himself turned.

Actually, of the Court, we don't actually know how many idiots there are.
Banhammer, Orwell, and probably Betsy Murgatroyd appear pretty naive. And Rusty Trombone is just creepy. But Jack and Marie are smart. What about Labeler, Moothfott, and Adderall Hawk? I bet some of them know the score as well.

Also, keep in mind that Banhammer is not a master politicker. He's been living in a bubble. He's naive. He's surrounded by people who adore him and compliment his intelligence. To the extent there's backstabbing, nobody is backstabbing him. So when he meets Olive, he's unprepared. It's like a home schooler joining a fraternity. He may be a genius, but they are going to roll over him.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Whispri » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:01 pm

Salem wrote:As for the idea that Wanda would have a set of arkenshoes, it doesn't fit the narative. She goes through all this effort to get her hands on a tool whether she can attune or not and she wants to get all the attuned together. Why hasn't everyone in GK tried on the shoes if that's the case? It just seems to stretched. But there could very well be a reason.

Sure it does, all it requires is for the Prediction to include the words 'in addition to the Arkenshoes'. Or 'other than the Arkenshoes' if you prefer. Or provide her with a condition that must be met for her to bond with the Arkenshoes or to meet the person who will bond with them. Or anything really, there are plenty of ways of phrasing a Prediction that would set her on the path she followed. 'Why does she never seem use the power at her disposale' is a question that can be asked of her with regards to a great many of her talents.

Also, Wanda has apparantly just summoned the Arkenshoes from wherever they were hidden, if she can do that once, why on Erf wouldn't she do it again?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby multilis » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:04 pm

Banhammer - I think insufficient info to know if he was really a fool.

He is very dedicated (zealot) to a world without war. He is given a possible solution with a somewhat evil side that might be able to conquer everyone else and thus end war. So one option is he was willing to sugar coat the negative of that side (up to a point) in order to help them win.

After that side wins, war ends and he hopes whatever is left of FAQ might be able to influence them towards his utopia vision. Given choice between a world always at war and some even small chance for world peace he may have been willing to gamble. Others like Wanda also gambled...

Unclear if Banhammer is fool who didn't know the risks or just zealot who knew the risks and accepted them. (In similar way, his tea party torture could be fool or it could be a way to train Jill so she was later able to learn self control, resist turning)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby WarFAN » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:36 pm

multilis wrote:
He is very dedicated (zealot) to a world without war.



Janis is a zealot. A pacifist militant. Banhammer is, at the very best, a scholar monk feeded by a warrior-daughter whom he despises.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby multilis » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:56 pm

WarFAN wrote:
multilis wrote:
He is very dedicated (zealot) to a world without war.



Janis is a zealot. A pacifist militant. Banhammer is, at the very best, a scholar monk feeded by a warrior-daughter whom he despises.


He founded a bubble kingdom that tries to avoid conquest. Every mention of war/bloodshed and he grimaces. He hates idea of fighting (but willing to do so if needed). So I guess the philosophy he thinks is worth saving includes reducing violence.

What his feelings are for his daughter... we only have Jills biased viewpoint on that, the dislike of violence, and the recent flying in to rescue Jill.

Sizemore dislikes war. Maggie says we "should" find slaughter repulsive. Likely room for a fair number who dislike idea of killing others, and ultimate way to have that is to have no wars in entire world.

A bubble kingdom that dominates entire world is one way to end all war/violence. (Pax Romana)

(One version of bubble kingdom would be to have entire magic kingdom control world, ready to wipe out any side that starts a war)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby joosy » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:13 pm

multilis wrote:
WarFAN wrote:
multilis wrote:
He is very dedicated (zealot) to a world without war.



Janis is a zealot. A pacifist militant. Banhammer is, at the very best, a scholar monk feeded by a warrior-daughter whom he despises.


He founded a bubble kingdom that tries to avoid conquest. Every mention of war/bloodshed and he grimaces. He hates idea of fighting (but willing to do so if needed). So I guess the philosophy he thinks is worth saving includes reducing violence.

What his feelings are for his daughter... we only have Jills biased viewpoint on that, the dislike of violence, and the recent flying in to rescue Jill.

Sizemore dislikes war. Maggie says we "should" find slaughter repulsive. Likely room for a fair number who dislike idea of killing others, and ultimate way to have that is to have no wars in entire world.

A bubble kingdom that dominates entire world is one way to end all war/violence. (Pax Romana)

(One version of bubble kingdom would be to have entire magic kingdom control world, ready to wipe out any side that starts a war)



And be able to support it. From what I can gather, the economic mechanics of Erfworld make war an inevitability. Any peace has to provide zero or positive schmucker flow. That probably means no new units can be popped (unless for harvesting) and find a way to defend/absorb barbarian units/allies (e.g. marbits, gobwins, etc) and prevent unled units from auto-attacking, etc.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Flowers&DeathSkulls » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:12 am

I have a note about the shoes, as someone who read a few of the Oz books.

The silver shoes, or ruby slippers, had a few properties.

1. The shoes cannot be removed by anyone except the wearer, EXCEPT when the wearer is not alive.
2. The shoes teleport to anywhere, as long as the wearer focuses on the image and activates them (clicking the heels for the movie, I do not recall about the books).
3.The shoes never leave Oz. It is likely that they cannot, as BOTH shoes fell off of Dorothy in midair as she was going back to Kansas. Incidentally, even though they fell off in the Deadly Desert in Oz, Dorothy still arrived in Kansas safely. When Dorothy recovers the shoes, she gives them to the ruler of Oz instead of taking them with her so they do not get lost again and retain their use (as magic may not work in Kansas).

It was implied heavily that the shoes had much greater powers, but that only the wicked witches really knew what those powers were, since one had the chance to experiment and the other was her sister.

So, my predictions:

Olive is angry because once Judy put the shoes on, Olive cannot remove them. She may attempt to trick them off (Dorothy was tricked into falling over an invisible bar), but Judy will be looking out for trickery so it likely will not work.

Olive is likely afraid because of Judy's ability to teleport, possibly with her entire stack, and realizes that if Judy goes to Stupidworld then Olive is the heir and Jillian can kill her. I realize this is not a new idea, however, I agree with those that have already stated it.

Finally, the shoes FALL OFF when Judy goes to Stupidworld, per the Oz books. Thus, they are still within Erfworld and counted by the Stupidmeal, yet Judy can still use them to go home.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:23 am

Flowers&DeathSkulls wrote:3.The shoes never leave Oz. It is likely that they cannot, as BOTH shoes fell off of Dorothy in midair as she was going back to Kansas. Incidentally, even though they fell off in the Deadly Desert in Oz, Dorothy still arrived in Kansas safely. When Dorothy recovers the shoes, she gives them to the ruler of Oz instead of taking them with her so they do not get lost again and retain their use (as magic may not work in Kansas).


Actually, I don't think they are bound to Oz specifically, it's just that they cannot enter the mundane world. They could probably be used in other fairy lands, like Ev, just fine.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Kreistor » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:23 am

Salem wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Anyway, this Speculation about Tools having Primary associations to schools is clearly and obviously false without a lot more supportable statements in the comic.


I just find this statement off. I mean how can something be obviously false if it's possible that more evidence might support it. The two clauses are kind of a contradiction.


Two ways. Both highly speculative. There may be more that I have not thought of, of course.

1. Someone indicates that the Shockmancy, performed by the Hammer is stronger than known Shockmancy performed by casters. We have a power, but no frame of reference to judge the effect by. The rest of the powers have frames of reference, and are not significantly powerful. except Turning dwagons which is notable, but not really more so than standard Turnamancy applied to a good Warlord. (Turnamancers lack ontact with sufficient targets to match Stanley's volume, but can Turn units just as effective as Stanley.) Generally, supporters of the Primary theory will not accept this version, because they also insist that the Primary must be a Fate power, and Shockmancy is not. Thus, presenting it leas to warfare with two groups. Consequently, I will not respond to any disagreement.

2. Stanley uncovers a host of new powers, all in one school. We see him discover the walnut -> bird transformation, and he discusses seeking more. We know the Hammer has more to give him. If those line up with a single school, we have a Primary.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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