Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby 0beron » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:39 am

ftl wrote:If Banhammer's just an idiot, how come his side's stayed alive for so long?

If an idiot chases a butterfly into a busy street, and just so happens to avoid every single car in the process, does that make him any less of an idiot?
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby drachefly » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:51 am

Kreistor wrote:
Salem wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Anyway, this Speculation about Tools having Primary associations to schools is clearly and obviously false without a lot more supportable statements in the comic.


I just find this statement off. I mean how can something be obviously false if it's possible that more evidence might support it. The two clauses are kind of a contradiction.


Two ways...

The objection was logical-structure in nature, not asking for that hypothetical evidence. Take a look at the sentence beginning 'I mean' once again. Maybe twice again. Maybe add 'sufficiently that it becomes obviously true' at the end.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Kreistor » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:04 pm

drach, I'm an engineer, which is a type of Scientist. So I'm going to approach this with reference to Science.

Is what we "know" about science today how our Universe really works, and our current knowledge always be true?

No. Absolutely not. Consider Science before the Theory of Relativity. We had a Newtonian Universe of Laws, and that was what we used for Science. That was the Truth of that past time frame. Did Scientists of those days say, "Well, future knowledge will change what we know about the Universe, so we aren't going to build a bridge until we know exactly how the Universe wokrs"? No, they proceeded as if their current knowledge was 100% accurate, Science would not change, and bridges would stand without future changes making it crash. because you need a bridge today, and so you build a bridge with what you know today, and you don't kill yourself over what someone discovers about the Universe in 20 years time. See the takoma Narrows bridge collapse for how relying on current Science does lead to disaster, periodically. That is how Science progresses sometimes... we operate on current knowledge, a new event occurs, and we learn from it. This stance has flaws, but the alternative is eternal inactivity waiting until Science has discovered everything... because how would we know that it has?

My statement is no different than all Scientists' stance on current knowledge of Science. Someday, Einstein may fall, and a new Theory replace Relativity. But today, we accept Relativity as the way our Universe operates, and send satellites to Mars including corrections for the effects of Relativity on its internal clock. So today, we have counter-evidence for a Primary discipline for the Hammer, but tomorrow someone in the comic may present one, and it may not be the one you want it to be. Scientists didn't want Relativity... it denied us the Stars.

So, in Erfworld today, with no claim to the Hammer having any one dominant or overpowering school, there is no fundamental Primary for the Hammer. And with absolutely no knowledge of Charlie, nor how the Arkendish gains its power, we can draw no such Primary for the Dish, either. The Dish may "learn" what the Attuned user teaches it. It may respond to the User's inner desires or fears. It may not be responsible for the unmatched Thinkamancy at all, and instead some unknown feature, item, or Linked casters be partially responsible for the appearance of the Dish having these powers. And yes, it may confer unmatched Thinkamancy on Charlie. We just do not know, and may never know.

But in a future comic, we may be told enough to know.

Until that time, the Hammer has been stated in comic to have no identifiable dominant school, and attuned to someone with no attraction to a particular school. The Pliers picked someone with an attraction to Croakamancy. The Dish chose the indescribable Charlie. And the Shoes... well, we are about to find out, and the Universe will change.

BTW, if you find the way people's knowledge has changed over the years fascinating, please watch James Burke's "The Day the Universe Changed" which is full of dozens of examples of how what we knew one day became false the next.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby drachefly » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:18 pm

Nice little essay. Just one thing about it - those times when we were wrong... we were wrong.

If you see enough wiggle room that something might be true, then don't say it's obviously not so. If you do, you're already wrong, regardless whether it turns out to be true or not.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby effataigus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:13 pm

Got a kick out of leaving open the possibility that something is clearly and obviously false for reasons that you haven't thought of yet, K. :D

You claim that people get upset because you are brutally correct (paraphrased), but this is an example where the combativeness of your assertions actually made you less correct (consider that you could have just pointed out that the poster's assumptions were not solid rather than "clearly and obviously false").

Admittedly,
"Anyway, this Speculation about Tools having Primary associations to schools is clearly and obviously speculative without a lot more supportable statements in the comic."
lacks the same punch, but so it goes.

Whoops, we've degenerated into meta-posting.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby bladestorm » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:52 pm

Come on, new comic. I need something fresh to chew over. BTW, was this update early for Wednesday's update, or late for the weekend update? Or are we just not back onto a schedule yet? I expected the schedule to go haywire during the holidays, and get back to some regularity right about now. Just wondering.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Cubbins » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:00 pm

Actually I just noticed that Olive specifically called Judy "Judy," very snappishly, and not "my lady" or "overlord." Even as the heir, that's extremely disrespectful.

I mean, do you imagine Stanley ever having called King Saline IV 'Saline' to his face, even when upset and after being named heir? I'm betting he said 'Yer Majesty' or 'King'; there seems to be some text evidence of him still referring to King Saline as 'the King' and 'King Saline', not just 'Saline', well after he was an Overlord himself (Book 2-027). Note that this is -Stanley- we're talking about, the one with a social IQ deep in the negatives and an Ego Waffle the size of a megalogwiff.

Just how full of herself -is- Olive, anyway?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby :-) » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:16 pm

Cubbins wrote:Just how full of herself -is- Olive, anyway?


To the brim, as it would be strange if she was full of someone else, no?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Oberon » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:05 pm

Kreistor wrote:Sorry, no. That was an old argument, but ended when the Tool listed the properties and their schools. The only property which is Carnymancy is the flash with the lightning. The lightning is shockamancy. Walnuts to birds is Changamancy. And so on. It has never been stated to provide unmatched "carnymancy", esopecially since we now have a definition for Carnymancy. Carnymancy is the magic of fooling people, and Stanley fooled no one.
You forget that Stanley isn't especially bright or studious, and hasn't spent much time trying to figure out more powers of the 'hammer.
Kreistor wrote:There is unsupported speculation that Charlie is a Thinkamancer, now that we know Casters can Rule.
Supported, even if not concrete. Charlie may have been an Efbaum caster unit.
bladestorm wrote:"Four known Arkentools" doesn't mean that there would only ever be four, or that the four would always be the same. I still like the theory tat there are more than four, and the others just haven't been discovered yet.
There's been reasonable Chekhov's gun placement to suggest that there will be four arkentools, which will be used by their four attuned wielders to form the first quad-caster link.



Stan Lee has said that the existence of superheros won't change the average person's reaction to superheroes. No matter how long Spiderman fights crime in New York, when he swings by the reaction will be "Wow, look what that guy can do! That's incredible!" Otherwise the setting quickly changes into a speculative fiction where all the super-genius heroes and villains will have radically changed the world, making it less able to be related to by the average reader.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Whispri » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:11 pm

Cubbins wrote:Actually I just noticed that Olive specifically called Judy "Judy," very snappishly, and not "my lady" or "overlord." Even as the heir, that's extremely disrespectful.

I mean, do you imagine Stanley ever having called King Saline IV 'Saline' to his face, even when upset and after being named heir? I'm betting he said 'Yer Majesty' or 'King'; there seems to be some text evidence of him still referring to King Saline as 'the King' and 'King Saline', not just 'Saline', well after he was an Overlord himself (Book 2-027). Note that this is -Stanley- we're talking about, the one with a social IQ deep in the negatives and an Ego Waffle the size of a megalogwiff.

Just how full of herself -is- Olive, anyway?

One thing to bear in mind, is that the Prediction relating to the death of Haffaton's Ruler is almost certainly the only reason Judy is still alive. Without that, Olive would have killed Judy (or found someone to do it for her) and claimed the Side as her own. I'd imagine that most Haffaton Units are loyal to her, or would swiftly become so after meeting her. It's just Olive's hard luck that other than herself and Orwell the only Haffaton Units in the City are the ones currently stacked with the Overlady.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby effataigus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:29 pm

T'would be interesting to hear a definition of a superpower. Given the large variety of ways in which superpeople get their superpowers, it seems like the only likely definition would be one based upon exceeding what can be reproduced with the knowledge of the era. If so, it would be defined as the inverse of scientific truth, in that it specifically needs to be un-reproducible (perhaps just unreproduced?) by anyone but the individual. I like this definition, since it implies that those first people to create each new element were in a supercollider were, for a short time at least, superheroes.

Unununium-man! Pushing the boundaries of human knowledge one half-trillion dollars at a time!
Cubbins wrote:Just how full of herself -is- Olive, anyway?
To be fair, she's making a bid for being the second most remarkable individual in Erfworld after Parson. The Arkentool wielders will probably win out when all of the fate points are added up at the end, but achieving level 12 and approximating world domination without attunement is pretty, well... epic.

Come to think of it, I'd be curious to find out how she got to level 12 in a system so focused on gaining experience through warfare that it doesn't credit letting your enemies choke on Pyrrhic "victories." Mebbe all that casting in a linkup... which makes me wonder about Maxwell :shock:
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:49 pm

drachefly wrote:Nice little essay. Just one thing about it - those times when we were wrong... we were wrong.

If you see enough wiggle room that something might be true, then don't say it's obviously not so. If you do, you're already wrong, regardless whether it turns out to be true or not.

I agree with this, that there's a difference between "obviously not so" and "obviously not warranted". To express certainty that the Hammer has a primary discipline is to invite a challenge (because such certainty is clearly unwarranted), but it's a different kind of wrong than making a false statement.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Cubbins » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:20 pm

I wonder if a Florist can 'drain' things from other living beings with their magic, the way plant roots draw up nutrients from humus in the soil.

If that's the case, she may have siphoned the required experience/power gradually (so as not to draw attention to herself) from the other casters who were once on her side, especially during those frequent Thinkamancy links. It would certainly suit her sociopathic personality to do so.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby mortissimus » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:05 am

effataigus wrote:Come to think of it, I'd be curious to find out how she got to level 12 in a system so focused on gaining experience through warfare that it doesn't credit letting your enemies choke on Pyrrhic "victories." Mebbe all that casting in a linkup... which makes me wonder about Maxwell :shock:


According to the Ossomer execution scene you do get XP for executing prisoners. So one pretty safe way to level casters would be to bring them out for execution duty.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby joosy » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:14 am

Whispri wrote:One thing to bear in mind, is that the Prediction relating to the death of Haffaton's Ruler is almost certainly the only reason Judy is still alive.

Also, Duty is greatest in the Chief Warlord. That is why the heir is typically made the Chief Warlord so that Duty will prevent them from acting directly against their Ruler in most cases. I believe Olive is both Chief Warlord and Chief Caster as well as Heir.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Squall83 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:29 am

joosy wrote:
Vanvidum wrote:Anyone else notice Judy's use of the word 'kill' rather than 'croak'? She sounded sober and aware here, so I wonder if the shoes have any impact on the effects of the flowers.

It is the second time she has used it. The first time it was used, Jillian noted how odd the word was.

Actually it's the 3rd time. The first time was as you said, near the end of episode 51 and the second time was at episode 55, when she was shouting at the scarecrow ("He got himself killed for me. That was never you though! Ohhh no.”").

So if I'm right, the only ones who have used that word so far are Parson, Charlie and Judy, right? I wonder when we will get to know why.

Also did you notice that she wears her favorite blue dress and at the end of episode 51 she says that HE prefers blue now?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby drachefly » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:33 am

joosy wrote:I believe Olive is both Chief Warlord and Chief Caster as well as Heir.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg


Yeah, I was wondering about that assertion people have been making around here - a CWL who, though a commander, isn't actually a warlord? Seems odd.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby joosy » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:58 pm

drachefly wrote:
joosy wrote:I believe Olive is both Chief Warlord and Chief Caster as well as Heir.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg


Yeah, I was wondering about that assertion people have been making around here - a CWL who, though a commander, isn't actually a warlord? Seems odd.


Well if she wasn't Chief Warlord then she could probably act against the Overlady directly. Unless there is some Duty/Loyalty mechanism in place for heirs that we have not been informed about, of course.

So far my assumption has been that you would want your heir to be your Chief Warlord so they won't conspire against the Ruler but.. could you pop more than one heir? That seemed to be the case with Jetstone. I could be wrong, but I believe they had both Ossomer and Ansom as heirs but only Ansom was Chief Warlord. When Ansom was croaked, Ossomer replaced him as heir and Chief Warlord. Perhaps there is an order for heirs? (Primary, secondary, etc.) but without being Chief Warlord the secondary and tertiary ones would be free to work against them to try to advance. Of course, I could be overthinking things.

Regardless, given Olive's psychopathic egomania I doubt she would let someone else be Chief Warlord as she would be subject to their orders. Addling them with the flowers would not be good for battles, etc either. She may be willing to sacrifice their sides CWL bonus or replace it with Wanda's for their uncroaked units.

On an unrelated note.. I wonder if Faq's new heir will be another philospher or just like Jilian
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby Lamech » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:21 pm

mortissimus wrote:
effataigus wrote:Come to think of it, I'd be curious to find out how she got to level 12 in a system so focused on gaining experience through warfare that it doesn't credit letting your enemies choke on Pyrrhic "victories." Mebbe all that casting in a linkup... which makes me wonder about Maxwell :shock:


According to the Ossomer execution scene you do get XP for executing prisoners. So one pretty safe way to level casters would be to bring them out for execution duty.

You also get some XP for casting, training and such. And there are a lot of gardens she needs to tend too. I wouldn't be surprised if buffing farms grants XP to florists like building cities does to dirtamancers. And Haffaton has a lot of farms to buff.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 061

Postby mortissimus » Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:29 pm

joosy wrote:So far my assumption has been that all heirs are Chief Warlords but.. could you pop more than one heir? That seemed to be the case with Jetstone. I could be wrong, but I believe they had both Ossomer and Ansom as heirs but only Ansom was Chief Warlord. When Ansom was croaked, Ossomer replaced him as heir and Chief Warlord. Perhaps there is an order for heirs? (Primary, secondary, etc.) but without being Chief Warlord the secondary and tertiary ones would be free to work against them to try to advance. Of course, I could be overthinking things.


I don't know if the order of popping between teh princes has been established, but yea you can have more then one heir. It is stated indirectly when Slatetly thinks about Tremennis and reveals that he was not popped heir as Jetstone had several princes but few warlords. So it was a choice.

I also think Chief Warlord is a free choice for the ruler, just look at how Stanley promotes and demotes Parson as he feels like it.

However, if there are more then one heir some order must be established. And we have never heard about an heir being demoted, just about heirs trying to rebell or splitting off. So having more then one could make court life a little bit more interesting.
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