Book 2 – Page 102

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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Whispri » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:39 am

teratorn wrote:But with a remaining warlord Parson could have wiped the entire hex just by ordering her to gut all greens and ignite them. Even the siege thing wasn't needed, just send all the warlords and green dwagons into the hex where Ansom and all the coalition leaders are, gut them and ignite them. Problem solved.

I have nothing against the exploit, but the scale of the explosion is a bit excessive.

Quite, this is far, far more powerful than the breath weapon attacks themselves. And as I recall, said breath weapons were revealed in one of the Artemis updates to have an iron limit to the number of targets they could hit with a single breath.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby TheTuna » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:42 am

Well, that was very well done.

I've got to say that I am really pretty pissed off at Parson at this point. He's done absolutely nothing of any tactical intelligence whatsoever since ordering the riders to harvest their mounts way back at the start of the battle, and his followers are getting killed in droves due to a series of situations that he should have seen and avoided.

The fact that a stack of leaderless, Croakamancer-less Archons were able to take out Slately, Ossomer and a good chunk of their stack is all the proof we need that had Parson displayed the intelligence he did all throughout Book 1 this battle would've been over a long time ago.

I'd like to see a little more tactical brilliance from the guy in order to explain just why he's suddenly gone from being an unsurpassed tactical and strategic genius to somebody who charges into battle without a plan or even remembering to order Wanda to hold in Spacerock in order to maintain her absolutely vital bonus.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Arky » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:03 am

TheTuna wrote:Well, that was very well done.

I've got to say that I am really pretty pissed off at Parson at this point. He's done absolutely nothing of any tactical intelligence whatsoever since ordering the riders to harvest their mounts way back at the start of the battle, and his followers are getting killed in droves due to a series of situations that he should have seen and avoided.

The fact that a stack of leaderless, Croakamancer-less Archons were able to take out Slately, Ossomer and a good chunk of their stack is all the proof we need that had Parson displayed the intelligence he did all throughout Book 1 this battle would've been over a long time ago.

I'd like to see a little more tactical brilliance from the guy in order to explain just why he's suddenly gone from being an unsurpassed tactical and strategic genius to somebody who charges into battle without a plan or even remembering to order Wanda to hold in Spacerock in order to maintain her absolutely vital bonus.


In fairness, he shouldn't have NEEDED to specifically order Wanda to stay in Spacerock. Wanda's decision to leave mid-battle without orders remains mind-bogglingly daft, especially as she did absolutely nothing once she got into the MK so it's not clear why she thought it would be a smart thing to do. To be honest, it seemed more like a "this has to happen for the sake of the story" thing (as does the catastrophic explosion of the greens) because GK was in a dominant position with Wanda present and she had to be removed from the field so that the rest of Spacerock's fightback would seem more plausible.

And yes, Parson's burning need to be personally on the field has completely fouled this up and got a lot of units killed who probably would have survived if Parson continued to command this fight from the war room in Gobwin Knob. Hopefully he has this realization at some point so that we don't have to see him repeat the error.

Slately vs Parson should be entertaining.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby multilis » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:32 am

TheTuna wrote:Well, that was very well done.

I've got to say that I am really pretty pissed off at Parson at this point. He's done absolutely nothing of any tactical intelligence whatsoever since ordering the riders to harvest their mounts way back at the start of the battle, and his followers are getting killed in droves due to a series of situations that he should have seen and avoided.

The fact that a stack of leaderless, Croakamancer-less Archons were able to take out Slately, Ossomer and a good chunk of their stack is all the proof we need that had Parson displayed the intelligence he did all throughout Book 1 this battle would've been over a long time ago.

I'd like to see a little more tactical brilliance from the guy in order to explain just why he's suddenly gone from being an unsurpassed tactical and strategic genius to somebody who charges into battle without a plan or even remembering to order Wanda to hold in Spacerock in order to maintain her absolutely vital bonus.

Stately and Ossomer attacked which meant they left tower behind and were limited to having flying units around to screen them. Then Stately did stupid charge. Not easy to predict. Only *enemy* could cross zone because of the "turn change" exploit. (Archons could not shoot Stately across zone off turn)

It is not obvious to *need* to say "Wanda stay in battle unless you need to save your own life", is sort of like saying Wanda don't take a sword and poke your eye out with it.

Parson has been handicapped by only having Maggie with limited juice to direct fight, combined with lots of diplomacy: Stanley, Maggie, then lots in magic kingdom. He correctly immediately realized Wanda leaving magic kingdom was dumb, and portal disappearing meant king was in throne room. He does not know King now has heir, king is only a double, etc.... fog of war.

...

If Stanley moves capital to Spacerock, then Parson and friends leave Spacerock through portal, then Spacerock is destroyed (inferno)... what happens? Can Goblin Keep become capital again? (In Book 1, Stanley did not have spare capital, was going to start new side at FAQ - which could have become spare capital if rebuilt, could not take treasury with him)

...

"so it's not clear why she [Wanda] thought it would be a smart thing to do" - Arky

Wanda is obsessed with "easy way" fate. Parson is instrument of fate who got her pliers. If Portal closes she is separated from her messiah Parson, which was more important to her than "if portal closes that means we won". Parson was trying to join her, somehow that meant to her fate wanted them together now. (In Wanda's defense, she has been shook up on own safety from "Kingsworld" spell, she may not feel safe even winning the battle with no portal escape route. Whoever did Kingsworld may have another ambush lined up before her sides turn)

"Wanda loves fate" is like "Silvia loves fire" a handicap for Parson.
Last edited by multilis on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby jkosta » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:39 am

Wanda's last standing orders were to stay alive by any means.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby zbeeblebrox » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:55 am

shamelessmerc wrote:
0beron wrote:You also apparently don't care that she DID dust, as evidenced by the classic "PARCH" sound effect that her legs dissolved into.


I do care, which is why I took a REEEEEEAL long look at that frame before posting, and the only thing that is clear is the fact that nothing is clear.

And if nothing is clear, it is because it is intentionally unclear.

Rumors of her death are, at this time, unconfirmed. She was in the middle of an enormous army of uncroaked, and she has had a mount parch from underneath her before. I don't see any of what is in that frame as definative, not the fire, not the sound effect, not the laughter being cut off midway, not the distortion of the form. Rob and Xin have gone to some trouble to make it not clear - unlike a multitude of clear kills in the past.


I agree with this. Hell, I had to go to this thread just to figure out what was even happening in that panel. And all I learned was that the sound effect is meant to spell out "parched", which tells me nothing!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Renion » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:58 am

Sylvia...

:cry:

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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby multilis » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:01 am

If capital is moved to Spacerock... can the chief warlord sitting on the throne at Spacerock move the capital back? (Or does only the ruler have that power?)

IF that is possible, then someone else could be appointed chief warlord then Parson could flee Spacerock.


"And all I learned was that the sound effect is meant to spell out "parched", which tells me nothing!" - Looking at dictionary definitions, could mean dead, incapacitated (dead if not healed by next turn), or badly wounded. (Parched <at least> means the skin of victim is burned, <might> mean flesh underneath is still ok, sort of like toasted bread)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby zbeeblebrox » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:05 am

^^^ Right, which means it's totally ambiguous and tells us nothing! :\
(on a side note, when a decrypted united is killed, their sound effect should totally be "ENCRYPTED")

Arky wrote:And yes, Parson's burning need to be personally on the field has completely fouled this up and got a lot of units killed who probably would have survived if Parson continued to command this fight from the war room in Gobwin Knob. Hopefully he has this realization at some point so that we don't have to see him repeat the error.


Uhh...he totally berated Maggie for that very thing!!! Parson thinks this whole plan is stupid! Parson doesn't want to be there, he has to be there or GK is screwed
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Noigel » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:12 am

Cutting short the laughter and showing Sylvia burning beforehand pretty much seems to confirm her dead - why? Just after establishing her special status? This death seems very very senseless. If we reason that fate kept sylvia alive just to get the city to inferno, fine, but why then the reveal with her special luck?


Sylvia's luck was her justification for starting the blaze in the first place. She thought her luck would save her, citing past experiences, but didn't know that she was being kept on "karma life-support" by Jojo and Charlie.

I believe Jojo actually grew to love her but to Charlie she was a planted pawn that he expended. It will be interesting to see if Jojo turns on Charlie now. I believe it will happen because Charlie likely contracted Jojo so there's no side-loyalty to get in the way.

... but I want to get back to what Sylvia said/thought in the end? If Ace was still alive with the Bear then Sylvia truly didn't "win." She wrongly assumed she'd decimated everything in the battle-space but it looked like she croaked everything else BUT Ace and the bear. If we assume this then, barring diplomacy, Parson can't assert control of Spacerock and stop the Inferno.

Side topic/Cool Speculation 1: Was that a doll made by Holly or was that actually Holly? We know some beings look pretty weird on Erf. Or... what if that was some sort of doll armor?

Side topic/Cool Speculation 2: Slately really grew on me through all this. I'm trying to find a way to save him. He's like Will Ferrell's character in Stranger Than Fiction at this point... doesn't he deserve to live at this point? So here's my long-shot plan: What if Parson gives Clonely the scroll to use? What if it takes him back home... meaning to his own body... like a reviving spell? This would get Clonely out of Spacerock and if Parson could somehow get Clonely to surrender his troops, Parson could possibly stop the fire.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby zbeeblebrox » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:15 am

Noigel wrote:Side topic/Cool Speculation 2: Slately really grew on me through all this. I'm trying to find a way to save him. He's like Will Ferrell's character in Stranger Than Fiction at this point... doesn't he deserve to live at this point? So here's my long-shot plan: What if Parson gives Clonely the scroll to use? What if it takes him back home... meaning to his own body... like a reviving spell? This would get Clonely out of Spacerock and if Parson could somehow get Clonely to surrender his troops, Parson could possibly stop the fire.


Parson would be crazy to do this, but it would be awesome.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby multilis » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:21 am

zbeeblebrox wrote:Uhh...he totally berated Maggie for that very thing!!! Parson thinks this whole plan is stupid! Parson doesn't want to be there, he has to be there or GK is screwed

Destroying the tower *almost* worked without Parson.

Parson's strategy is "in a capital [important] fight" you have max bonus, including a large chief warlord bonus. That is *one* of his reasons.

Parson also destroyed the sword that gave him a large bonus, he does not like "ruthless".

Parson wanted to be a "player" not a "tool".

Parson wanted to risk himself and not just other "pieces".

Parson needs XP to get better long term chief warlord bonus.

Parson can't micromanage his team through Maggie very well. His team is good at making mistakes without being micromanaged.

Maggie explains to Thinkomancers that Parson for Psychological reasons needs to be in battle to preform at his peak.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby TheTuna » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:24 am

Arky wrote:
TheTuna wrote:Well, that was very well done.

I've got to say that I am really pretty pissed off at Parson at this point. He's done absolutely nothing of any tactical intelligence whatsoever since ordering the riders to harvest their mounts way back at the start of the battle, and his followers are getting killed in droves due to a series of situations that he should have seen and avoided.

The fact that a stack of leaderless, Croakamancer-less Archons were able to take out Slately, Ossomer and a good chunk of their stack is all the proof we need that had Parson displayed the intelligence he did all throughout Book 1 this battle would've been over a long time ago.

I'd like to see a little more tactical brilliance from the guy in order to explain just why he's suddenly gone from being an unsurpassed tactical and strategic genius to somebody who charges into battle without a plan or even remembering to order Wanda to hold in Spacerock in order to maintain her absolutely vital bonus.


In fairness, he shouldn't have NEEDED to specifically order Wanda to stay in Spacerock. Wanda's decision to leave mid-battle without orders remains mind-bogglingly daft, especially as she did absolutely nothing once she got into the MK so it's not clear why she thought it would be a smart thing to do. To be honest, it seemed more like a "this has to happen for the sake of the story" thing (as does the catastrophic explosion of the greens) because GK was in a dominant position with Wanda present and she had to be removed from the field so that the rest of Spacerock's fightback would seem more plausible.


This is what's bothering me. Don't get me wrong, I am still loving Erfworld, but during this fight Parson has displayed very little of the extreme genius he possessed all throughout Book 1.

The only tactical/strategic decision Parson made in Book 1 that was even arguably a poor one was the siege raid which got a whole bunch of dwagons killed, and even then he was operating under faulty intel from Wanda and handicapped by an uncooperative superior.

I want to see that brilliance in Book 2 on a more consistent basis! I know that Rob is in a tough spot narratively because Parson has so much more to work with now yet still must be challenged, but I loved the feeling of never knowing what insane gambit Parson was going to pull out next, and I haven't felt that from Erfworld in quite some time. It's still a great read, don't get me wrong, but I want the old Parson back. Hearing Parson say that he has "no plan" is like a blow to my soul. :P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Lamech » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:26 am

Ding, dong the witch is dead! And with any luck she'll stay dead this time.

Ah hell, she's probably going to come back with the Sword of Ruthlessness.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby No one in particular » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:29 am

God DAMN, Sylvia is creepy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby multilis » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:41 am

TheTuna wrote:has displayed very little of the extreme genius he possessed all throughout Book 1...

Book 1 was a little simpler. He was always chief warlord. He had the think-fool-look linkup to accurately see map. He could give orders directly to units in Goblin Keep (rather than ask Maggie to relay them). So Maggie's juice could be conserved for more field work.

He destroyed his sword, let others lead - Parson was upset with self over being ruthless monster...

He when appointed Chief Warlord makes one good plan after Kingsworld spell. He has only had a small fraction of a normal turn to work with so far and much/most of it was spent trapped in strange diplomacy in magic kingdom.

Parson now finally has a chance to use his brains again, he made minor "smart" decision to go after king in throne room which in his mind may be checkmate to Jetstone.. He does not know king is a double, Jetstone has heir, etc. (Ossomer intel was no heir and no cash to appoint one) Next part of story, Parson is likely in desperate situation on front lines and able to play genius.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby querzis » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:46 am

...are people serious? We litterally see Sylvia lower half turn to dust from panel 5 to 6 and some people think shes still alive? Come on.

I would assume she was saying she win cause she was the last living person in the courtyard. Ace and the last golem seems to be outside the courtyard to me. And yes, her luckamancy did work, thats why she lasted one turn longer then everyone else. Theres a difference between beeing lucky and expecting to stay alive in an inferno.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Saladman » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:47 am

Holy carp, guys. We've seen decrypted green dwagons go up in a cloud of gas when croaked; Ace noticed they were packed too tight last panel; commenters were inferring a shock wave blast from the art in page 101 and speculating it would bypass regular fire resistance; now we see the effects of the blast wave and it turns out they were correct. The whole thing was telegraphed, not retconned. I'm not seeing the problem.

Also, every time we see a decrypted unit croak, it dusts with a sound effect. I'm seeing Sylvia obscured by dust, and a sound effect over her legs. [Edit: and her laugh is cut off, not trails off or finished.] Not sure how it gets any clearer: Sylvia is out. Remember Clay's explanation of Luckamancy? Not just having to pull the numbers from somewhere, but a weaker unit can't get a number higher than the max they could naturally "roll." Sylvia just pushed her luck too far, she took more damage than the best result she could get could stand. (And good riddance by the way, that Luckamancy debt is hell on the rest of your side, especially when you're deliberately taking unnecessary chances and other good units are paying for it.)

Surprised no one has commented yet on the sad face of the one decrypted infantry in panel 10. More decrypted morale issues in the future, especially if they see their last king croaked before their eyes?

Noigel wrote:Side topic/Cool Speculation 1: Was that a doll made by Holly or was that actually Holly? We know some beings look pretty weird on Erf. Or... what if that was some sort of doll armor?


Holly was croaked in a field ambush before Ace Hardware popped; Slately kept the doll/statue around as a reminder and tribute. I had assumed Ace made it to specifications after the fact, rather than Holly making a doll of herself for her King (which would be weird), but I'm not sure that was stated outright.

Edit: And yes, I agree that distance shot in panel 4 is a cloth golem cradling Ace. May well mean Ace is alive, but could be a golem shielding its dead creator. I hope the former, as Ace is an interesting character with some good potential.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Castamir » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:49 am

On page 101, she's mounted on a dwagon. On 102, there's a "PARCH" sound effect directly below her.

Seems pretty clear to me.

The dwagon is a reddie, but they're fire-proof not explode-proof.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:33 am

Well... dayamm.

It is indeed unreal Lord Hamster.

Alas Sylvia, it seems you tempted fate with your fiery ways one to many times. Nice to see Ace might still be clinging on.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Because the author doesn't seem to bother to follow any kind of continuity anymore and is just changing rules as it goes along. Plenty of green dwagons had been stabbed and slashed until today while fighting side by side with reds.


When the atrium was ablaze and they were definitely ruptured in a way that released gas? I remember more than a few fantasy settings where dragons or dragon like creatures aren't constantly full of their volatile whatever that makes them spit flame. They generate it when they are actually using it (organs mix chemicals, magic turns stomach acid explosive etc). A green might not always be ballooning with explosive gas. And even if they are - most people are aiming for the head or heart (which dusts a decrypted green without a gas release) - why would you normally be trying to stab it in the gut, thus releasing gas that could kill you?

Just in page 101 do they suddenly become walking demolition bombs just because. And now decrypted leave flaming pieces just because.


Since we learned of the fire/gas combo, it ceases to be a stretch. The question about the segments of dwagon lying around is a good one, though hardly as dramatic as you make out.

And red dwagons burn like everybody else just because. Except for that cloth golem that has aparently looted Sylvia's plot shield.


Because ground zero explosions are exactly the same as just a normal fire.

Seriously, when did green dwagons became walking bombs? How come Stanley ever survived to overlord commanding a dwagon fleet when it should have self-destructed the moment someone shoots down a green?


Depends, how often has Stanley had a ton of greens close together punctured in a certain way when there was also an ignition source?

Aquillion wrote:I also think it's interesting how fast people went to wanting her to die after recent events. She was hugely popular before we found out how crazy she was (and that crazy started to endanger the main character.)


I don't think she was always "crazy". She was strong and of fiery personality, but I think we have really seen a lot of how decryption affects characters, or doesn't affect them. The constant brushes with death after two burning resurrections, the craziness of that battle... pushed her over the edge.

badninja wrote:So Silvia finally dies, but did her final death have any purpose? Parson now must deal with the final regiment of Jetstone and why do I feel that he will be delayed in evacuating the city. This battle will end with neither side with a clear victory but I feel that Charlie has yet to play his final cards as he has been silent for far to long.


Well, he can't evacuate the city (not his turn). If they control the city he could go elsewhere in the city away from the fire if they aren't going to fight it (but failing to fight it will just let if become an inferno, which it probably will be close to now). And if Ace is still alive and Parson spends too much time with Slately...

Chadim wrote:Great art as always, and many thanks for another comic!

Hm, I am thinking about a few current events:

-> It seems confirmed now that Wanda is not here. How on Erf does that make any sense? The thinkamancers fear for a trap and Parsons life, and then decide not to allow the single most powerful asset to come with Parson because potatoe. The whole plot to bring her away from battle seems contrived:
Smart Jack takes her with him to the magic kingdom for no good reason, then she is prohibited to return for no good reason, and when the thinkamancers anounce that she may not return, no one complains for no good reason.
So fate needed to separate Wanda and Parson without killing either of them?


Because by the time they decided to let him go they needed to defuse the caster build up that could potentially explode in front of the portal? In the hopes without her he'd be forced back through the portal to them? Because they don't want the MK to collapse into war?

And not complain? Parson wanted to get to the city, which it seems he was reasonably confident he had won. Look how long it took him to convince the Thinkers to let him go without risking a dangerous fight he might lose. Then you wanted him to argue with them for a while to make them let him take Wanda?

-> I agree that the dwagon-explosion seems kinda off: Hej, I got this super-powerful dwagons, that unfortunately have a built-in friendly-fire explosion bomb, because one other unit managed to attack one of them. At some point in time it would be nice to see dwagons to be actually useful.


This is practically the most dwagons, let alone green and red dwagons, we've ever seen together. Stanley only got an effectively large number of them together following TBfGK. We know friendly fire exists - Atrium was killed by an arrow fired by a Jetstone archer. A single green dwagon exploding in the open isn't that big an issue.
-> Cutting short the laughter and showing Sylvia burning beforehand pretty much seems to confirm her dead - why? Just after establishing her special status? This death seems very very senseless. If we reason that fate kept sylvia alive just to get the city to inferno, fine, but why then the reveal with her special luck?


Why go to such lengths with Wriggly and Oss to have them die like they did? Or Artemis with her back story? Etc. To give a face to the conflict, to populate the world with living, breathing characters etc so it seems more alive and there is greater impact with things.

And to show philosophies, physics and the like of the setting. Sylvia told us a lot, set a lot of epileptic trees shaking, drove a lot of the action in the Atrium and eventually went out in a blaze of glory - really the only way she would have gone. Maybe she was fated or protected by luck, if so this serves to show no one is untouchable.

teratorn wrote:But with a remaining warlord Parson could have wiped the entire hex just by ordering her to gut all greens and ignite them. Even the siege thing wasn't needed, just send all the warlords and green dwagons into the hex where Ansom and all the coalition leaders are, gut them and ignite them. Problem solved.

I have nothing against the exploit, but the scale of the explosion is a bit excessive.


General 1: I've got a cunning plan! We pack all our tanks with explosives, drive them into the enemy capital and detonate them!
General 2: Into what is likely the most heavily defended area held by the enemy attacking us, where the strongest and smartest of our opponents are held up? Ok, pros and cons?
General 1: Well, if it works they're all dead!
General 2: And if it doesn't?
General 1: Well.... I guess we would have lost a large number of vital units which would in turn make the slow and steady plan you have faaaaaaar harder to pull off.
General 2: And?
General 1: And... we would have to convince the president to let us blow up all of our tanks, and he loves our tanks.

Whispri wrote:Quite, this is far, far more powerful than the breath weapon attacks themselves. And as I recall, said breath weapons were revealed in one of the Artemis updates to have an iron limit to the number of targets they could hit with a single breath.
[/quote][/quote]

Well, yes. A flame flower exploding (all that flammable material going up at once) is going to cause a bit more damage than just a controlled small amount, isn't it? A whole bunch of flame throwers stacked together more so.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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