Book 2 – Page 102

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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:42 am

zbeeblebrox wrote:
Arky wrote:And yes, Parson's burning need to be personally on the field has completely fouled this up and got a lot of units killed who probably would have survived if Parson continued to command this fight from the war room in Gobwin Knob. Hopefully he has this realization at some point so that we don't have to see him repeat the error.


Uhh...he totally berated Maggie for that very thing!!! Parson thinks this whole plan is stupid! Parson doesn't want to be there, he has to be there or GK is screwed


Yes and no... yes he did berate Maggie because he would have preferred to appoint someone else, however part of the complaint is that GK may have won even WITHOUT the CW bonus thus meaning he STILL didn't need to be there. The only reason Parson went through the portal to GK is because he thought they needed his bonus. However thus far, it doesn't really feel like his bonus made much of a difference and things have only gotten worst because of his choice to go through the portal. Had Parson not left, things might have worked out the same or better

Now granted, Parson isn't the only one to blame... much of what turned this into a chaotic mess is due to idiocy that he did not predict. Wanda left the capitol in the middle of a fight thus denying her troops her bonus when they most needed it, and the thinkamancers greatly delayed his actions. Afterall one of the big differences that might have happened is that wanda would have stayed in spacerock and with her bonus the archons might have put up a better fight and maybe ossomer might not have turned. Heck come to think of it, Parson not taking wanda with him was actually pretty foolish since he may have gotten his troops their CW bonus, but the decrypted are now missing their Pliers bonus; he traded one bonus for another which actually reinforces the idea that GK would have been no better off had he just stayed in GK (though i guess you could say Parson is now in damage control mode and is just trying to salvage whatever he can from a plan that's gone completely wrong)... but again, Parson can not be blamed alone as Wanda and the thinkamancers can share some of the blame for how this went horribly wrong. Oh and less i forget Sylvia who went a started burning up the place...


So ya... all in all i can't say that Parson's move was smart or necessary, but i also can't say it was all that bad of an idea either since most of what went wrong with that idea was factors that he did not know about or count on. Parson had a simple and effective idea; GK units wait for 5 minutes while he teleports over there to give them an added bonus... but then he got held up by thinkamancers; then Wanda left the battlefield to look for him; Then sylvia started brunign up everything... an hour later Parson finally gets through and everything has gone to *boop*
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:55 am

TheTuna wrote:Well, that was very well done.

I've got to say that I am really pretty pissed off at Parson at this point. He's done absolutely nothing of any tactical intelligence whatsoever since ordering the riders to harvest their mounts way back at the start of the battle, and his followers are getting killed in droves due to a series of situations that he should have seen and avoided.


Possibly because he hasn't been in a position to give orders or do anything since there.

The fact that a stack of leaderless, Croakamancer-less Archons were able to take out Slately, Ossomer and a good chunk of their stack is all the proof we need that had Parson displayed the intelligence he did all throughout Book 1 this battle would've been over a long time ago.


Some of the Archons had leadership. Plus they are essentially flying magical knights. Slately's forces were not mostly flying magical knights. They come close to equaling or outnumbering Slately's stack, were probably more maneuverable than Slately's stack (not sure how well mounted flying unicorn centaurs zip around) and are highly trained at working together.

And, could only attack Slately and co when they actually attacked them and left the tower and entered the airspace.

I'd like to see a little more tactical brilliance from the guy in order to explain just why he's suddenly gone from being an unsurpassed tactical and strategic genius to somebody who charges into battle without a plan or even remembering to order Wanda to hold in Spacerock in order to maintain her absolutely vital bonus.


It is a very different situation to book one for him, and it isn't entirely his fault his front line troops are notorious at following their own initiative. Remember, if Wanda hadn't stopped to chat to Jillian the battle would have been won. I'd be taken by surprise at Wanda deciding to up and leave too. Sylvia deciding to set fire to the city because she's confident she's flame proof? Yeah, surprising. Archer was the level headed one.

Lamech wrote:Ding, dong the witch is dead! And with any luck she'll stay dead this time.

Ah hell, she's probably going to come back with the Sword of Ruthlessness.


We might see her if Parson one day storms the home of the Titans to kick their asses.

TheTuna wrote:This is what's bothering me. Don't get me wrong, I am still loving Erfworld, but during this fight Parson has displayed very little of the extreme genius he possessed all throughout Book 1.


Because he hasn't be in the fight. He was an adviser suddenly thrown back into the deep end into a battle entirely different to the one in book one. You say the dwagon harvest was the last genius move he made - probably because that is really the last order he gave before he cut communications/communications were cut for him.

I want to see that brilliance in Book 2 on a more consistent basis! I know that Rob is in a tough spot narratively because Parson has so much more to work with now yet still must be challenged, but I loved the feeling of never knowing what insane gambit Parson was going to pull out next, and I haven't felt that from Erfworld in quite some time. It's still a great read, don't get me wrong, but I want the old Parson back. Hearing Parson say that he has "no plan" is like a blow to my soul. :P


Now he is getting into a position where insane gambits by the truckload might be needed. That could be the thrust of book three. The momentum has shifted, and now Parson is in an entirely new situation.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby :-) » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:24 am

sanjmerchant wrote:
Frosted wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Because the author doesn't seem to bother to follow any kind of continuity anymore and is just changing rules as it goes along. Plenty of green dwagons had been stabbed and slashed until today while fighting side by side with reds. Just in page 101 do they suddenly become walking demolition bombs just because. And now decrypted leave flaming pieces just because. And red dwagons burn like everybody else just because. Except for that cloth golem that has aparently looted Sylvia's plot shield.

Seriously, when did green dwagons became walking bombs? How come Stanley ever survived to overlord commanding a dwagon fleet when it should have self-destructed the moment someone shoots down a green?


Not to dampen your angst or anything but Ace's speech beforehand alludes to the fact that Sylvia is being reckless and has the dwagons too close together. As in it never came up before because no one would be that irresponsible, save Sylvia.


All I know is that this Archon must've been doing some precision cutting to avoid setting off this Green Dwagon: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F069.jpg


Dude its not just the tearing of the green that made the explosion, it was the burning city and the reds fire that ignited the gas.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Renion » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:44 am

bladestorm wrote:NNNNOOOOOOOOO! Not SYLVIA!!!!!!
kefkakrazy wrote:Been wondering how long she'd last.

Rest in peace, you crazy bitch.

Xin, if you read these, Panel 5 may be my favorite thing you've ever done. Read into that what you will, but good job either way!
the_tick_rules wrote:Farewell red, you and destiny had a wild ride.
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Well... dayamm.

Alas Sylvia, it seems you tempted fate with your fiery ways one to many times.


Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jgrCKhxE1s
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby sheepfly » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:48 am

Sylvia died happy. That's better than could be said of most, and way better (for her) than the way she died the first time.
What would YOU say if you'd won with strength and duty and honor every time when suddenly a veiled flying zero-upkeep 100% recycled army of former friends showed up to croak you with massive numbers and bonuses and skulls with little pink flowers?

Yeah..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Whispri » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:59 am

I can't tell what happened to Sylvia, the sixth panel doesn't show her in enough detail to be sure and the sound effect could apply to any number of dusting Units.
I think the sound it is too far away from her to be for her, the fact that she's on fire is worrying though. I hope she's okay :(

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Whispri wrote:Quite, this is far, far more powerful than the breath weapon attacks themselves. And as I recall, said breath weapons were revealed in one of the Artemis updates to have an iron limit to the number of targets they could hit with a single breath.

Well, yes. A flame flower exploding (all that flammable material going up at once) is going to cause a bit more damage than just a controlled small amount, isn't it? A whole bunch of flame throwers stacked together more so.

No flamethrowers were involved. We're talking breath throwers. And lungs can only hold so much air.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby drachefly » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:13 am

sanjmerchant wrote:All I know is that this Archon must've been doing some precision cutting to avoid setting off this Green Dwagon: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F069.jpg


Let's see.
1) That dwagon had been completely exhausted in its previous turn. Running out of gas is a quite possible mechanic. These green dwagons had much less of a workout
2) There was no nearby ignition source in that scene
3) As a spell death, it could have been one that prevents death effects from triggering (whether or not the visuals match this). Erf's rules are not atomistic.
4) It could have been at a different phase of using breath attack - if, for instance, the green at spacerock had been drawing in its breath and aerosolizing the gas in its lungs for expulsion, that would make it a very bad time.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:57 am

drachefly wrote:
sanjmerchant wrote:All I know is that this Archon must've been doing some precision cutting to avoid setting off this Green Dwagon: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F069.jpg


Let's see.
1) That dwagon had been completely exhausted in its previous turn. Running out of gas is a quite possible mechanic. These green dwagons had much less of a workout
2) There was no nearby ignition source in that scene
3) As a spell death, it could have been one that prevents death effects from triggering (whether or not the visuals match this). Erf's rules are not atomistic.
4) It could have been at a different phase of using breath attack - if, for instance, the green at spacerock had been drawing in its breath and aerosolizing the gas in its lungs for expulsion, that would make it a very bad time.



Except we have a very similar situation in this previous engagement, except GK's forces don't spontaneously self-destruct.
-Green dwagons get sliced up as they prepare to unleash their breath.
-Gas is released.
-Reds unleash fire, actually setting up part of the garrison on fire right away.
-Released gas doesn't explode because...

So yes, the rules changed between that update and this. In both we have green dwagons being killed releasing gas with nearby fire sources, except this time it causes a convenient chain reaction. Despite, you know, in the previous engagement there being three "opened up" green dwagons worth of gas around.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby BrotherRool » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:26 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Except we have a very similar situation in this previous engagement, except GK's forces don't spontaneously self-destruct.
-Green dwagons get sliced up as they prepare to unleash their breath.
-Gas is released.
-Reds unleash fire, actually setting up part of the garrison on fire right away.
-Released gas doesn't explode because...

So yes, the rules changed between that update and this. In both we have green dwagons being killed releasing gas with nearby fire sources, except this time it causes a convenient chain reaction. Despite, you know, in the previous engagement there being three "opened up" green dwagons worth of gas around.

On a meta level, that was an update foreshadowing this moment, so there was clearly a lot of thought going into green dwagons blowing up.

So I would propose this answer, in the text update, it's very clear that each Green Dwagon dies, then wé have fire, then we have the Reds dying, whereas in the main page they've already started setting the place on fire when the Green gets killed
http://www.erfworld.com/page/3/.


So I would maybe there's a very very narrow window for combo attacks, they basically have to be attacking simultaneously for them to happen. That didn't happen in the first instance, whereas it did happen here.

In a normal battle you wouldn't normally want to risk eliminating your own side by aiming for the detonation (especially since this might be a Heavy only thing) and an intelligent commander should be able to time it so that the Reds aren't firing at the same time Greens are dying. And as Ace said 'they're packed in too close' which probably wasn't true in the text update, Slyvia was just being silly reckless

Would that be acceptable? I think it works
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby joosy » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:01 am

Whispri wrote:I can't tell what happened to Sylvia, the sixth panel doesn't show her in enough detail to be sure and the sound effect could apply to any number of dusting Units.
I think the sound it is too far away from her to be for her, the fact that she's on fire is worrying though. I hope she's okay :(


She's not pinin,' she's passed on! This Sylvia is no more! She has ceased to be! She's expired and gone to meet her maker! This is a late warlord! She's a stiff! Bereft of life, she rests in peace! Her metabolical processes are of interest only to historians! She's hopped the twig! She's shuffled off this mortal coil! She's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! This.... is an EX-SYLVIA!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Brucester » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:07 am

Pooh... I think I'm going to miss Sylvia. She was cwazy, but oh so entertaining too. (She's dead Jim)

And.... We're on track for Clone-King to meet Parsons.
Cue .... Attempt by Parson for diplomacy (I doubt he'll hack his way in)
And .... Then some gloating from Clone-King as he gives Parson the "you'll never escape alive" and "I'm already dead and you shall shortly follow" speech.

I wonder if the surviving battle-bear will scoop up Ace and just march out of the city....
Naahhh.... He'll go to find the King.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby peteratjet » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:40 am

So, if Parson had followed his initial impulse and gone straight up to join the fight, he would have been toast. Literally.

It's interesting that in panel 3, Fakely experiences the Sylvia-Go-Boom explosion as "FATAL CRASH", while in panel 9 Parson gets "SHAKE AND BAKE". This must have some significance, but I don't know what.

... also ...

I wonder if Sylvia's death caused some sort of Luckamancy feedback surge and rattled Charlie's eyeballs.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby vintermann » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:52 am

All the foreshadowing about Sylvia's fate armor was obviously to flavor/explain her ruthless "burn the world" attitude. We should have known, from learning about mathamancy and luckamancy and fate magic, that there was no way Jojo's carnymancy could protect her indefinitely.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Zeku » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:57 am

The nitpicking in this thread is mostly silly.

Parson has gone full rank-and-file, this is the current plot point. The overall strategic failure is largely a consequence of underlings (like Wanda and Sylvia) making moronic choices. They've done nothing that's outside their character, and the idea that everything is always strategically perfect is exactly the delusion that Parson is exploring now.

The heat and pressure of an explosion dissipates with the cube of the distance if I'm not mistaken. Regardless of how the math works, no matter how powerful an explosion is, it's damage is highly localized. This is true, even for nukes. It's very silly to believe that the explosion of all the gas inside a green dragon will be more powerful or more damaging than a controlled attack from the same green dragon, which is AREA OF EFFECT POISON. The only advantage of the explosion is that it does a lot of damage quickly, but the total damage is reduced, and friendly fire occurs.

Here's a few more fire songs in honor of Sylvia's passing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJOvWF-Mg_o Fire Field F-Zero GX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4udktU6rgMA Burning Fight Ys3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQRcEr9gxtQ Land of Dwarves FF4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7rMVIfHtDU Heat Man MM2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0yZtgyqHXM Blaze Heatnix MM6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySvtsBqZqUQ Fire! Mother 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOagvSmosBg Sortie Gauntlet 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOmOzWdHzHU Original Fire Temple Zelda,Ocarina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C9K88QzIpw Upper Norfair Super Metroid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uc-GRg5pjQ Fire Temple Soulblader
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdTDFW2lLPo Volcano FF1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ3VpecG0i0 Volcano Secret of Evermore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI-bAF2MidM Burning Building TMNT arcade

If you want to add some, please label them so we dont have a bunch of random links to dig through. Middle-click opens a link in a new tab without changing focus.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby drachefly » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:22 am

BrotherRool wrote:So I would maybe there's a very very narrow window for combo attacks, they basically have to be attacking simultaneously for them to happen. That didn't happen in the first instance, whereas it did happen here.


Indeed, it was specifically averted:
The cloud floated straight up and away...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Kaed » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:06 am

The level to which people will whine about events in this comic is nothing short of astonishing. Who do you people think you are?

This is Erfworld. We are missing entire mountains of 'rules data', yet somehow you expect that you understand it all enough to say he's being inconsistent? This is a world where you can die from hopping three feet down off a dwagon when it's not your turn because it counts as a 'fall' for boop's sake!

Let me tell you something guys. A while back a asked Rob a few questions about erfworld, and he was nice enough to answer me. Many of the answers however were "I can't tell you that because it's going to be a plot point in the future." One of my questions even made him mention that it was getting into stuff that won't even show up until Book 4!

So he's got a plan here, guys! He's not just pulling things out of his butt as he goes along - he seems to have a very clear story in mind.

So maybe lay off a little on the moaning?
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Denar » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:07 am

My Prediction; Parson and group will find the King, they'll have a brief fight, and they'll manage to subdue him. Parson'll attempt to reason with the King in order to fight/escape the fire, but Slately'll be all "gah I hate you! I end my turn." Then he'll vanish.
At this point it'll be Charlie's turn, and the reserves he has in the airspace will come into play.
Jack's gonna die, either in the engagement with the King or with Charlie. He'll represent the death caused by foolishness (not at all like Bogroll, who was because of ruthlessness - whose death had at least a purpose), and it'll echo with pretty much all the major characters.
Parson will be captured by Charlie, and the comic will progress with Parson in Charlie's capital learning more about the history of Erf, Charlie's perspective on the thinkamancy conspiracy, seeing Charlie's experiments on the captured Decrypted Archon, and the efforts of Gobwin Knob/Stanley/Wanda/Maggie/Sizemore having to take Parson's lessons on strategy to heart and attempting to rescue him all awhile dealing with the controversy brought by FAQ and Transylvito... deep breath.

... Ok I let my imagination run a little bit.

It really looks like Jack is going to die though. What I want to happen, is that Parson will have the sense to realise that his Fate means he can't die here until those three other prophecies are in some way fulfilled, and we can pretty much guess that one of them coincides with Wanda's. He'll use the Carnymancer scroll that "sends you home" on Jack, believing this'll send him back to GK at least, but then Jack'll reappear in FAQ. This'll cause issues for Jillian, who has to deal with an old sweetheart and the decrypted Ansom, and would allow Jack to nicely play out all the feelings behind the "Ask again later" line.

Also would Marie've let Jack walk to his death without at least some sad farewell? Someone convince me that he's not going to die!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby effataigus » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:42 am

0beron wrote:I'm very curious to see what she meant by "I win". Did she survive a second longer and thus count as capturing the Garrison?
shamelessmerc wrote:I will believe Sylvia is dead when I see her dust and not before! I don't care that she is on fire, I don't care that she is immobilised in the middle of the courtyard that's on fire....

You also apparently don't care that she DID dust, as evidenced by the classic "PARCH" sound effect that her legs dissolved into.
Not sure I saw an answer to this Zero... my read on the bit about her winning was that she's been daring fate to let her die for awhile now, and she finally made fate cry uncle and kill her. My guess as to how she succeeded was by first killing every other friendly unit about (notice she's looking pretty lonely at the end). Then there was nobody to pass her death onto.

Also yes, we've seen the parch sound effect at least twice before this update, and both times it was used to indicate uncroaked/decrypted turning to dust (directed at those that still seem confused, not 0beron).

Would be a bit of a stretch if Ace lived through that explosion despite being incapacitated at ground zero and it wrecking most of the town, but not an un-swallow-able one. There might be some rule about explosions and screening for instance.

The cloth golem on the other hand...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:46 am

Such sad infantry. Also the infantry in panel one are giving each other a look.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 102

Postby multilis » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:59 pm

effataigus wrote:Also yes, we've seen the parch sound effect at least twice before this update, and both times it was used to indicate uncroaked/decrypted turning to dust (directed at those that still seem confused, not 0beron).

Please say where, either who died or which page we saw Parch effect before. (I am not saying she isn't dead, just don't see proof yet.)

So far I see lots of statements of "fact" but when I try to look at the evidence, I can't find those facts, eg "legs dusting" - magnify art 400% and look closely and can't see it.

Just saying "x is true" does not help argument. Plot wise this would be fitting place for Silvia to die. But from evidence shown so far an incapacitated Silvia bragging she won because still alive would also fit. Plot wise, if she was then not healed before next turn and died might even be more tragic sort of final joke on her.

"my read on the bit about her winning was that she's been daring fate to let her die for awhile now," She calls it a win when she doesn't die. Perhaps win for her is "world burning", or to die seconds after everyone else dies. (Or perhaps she considers anything that happens a win for her)
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