Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

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Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby Hari Seldon » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:52 pm

Have your troops partner up and kill each other for practice.

Revive with Arkenpliers at the End of the Turn.

Repeat.

Entire army levels eventually.



OR



Have your troops fight inside of your city where movement is free. Have ONE unit (ex: Banana) kill all of the others. This makes for more intense fighting as the other units are jealous of the other unit getting all of the EXP and want to fight better.

Revive with Arkenpliers at the End of the Turn.

Repeat.

Banana becomes very high level and (since Stanley's Dragon proves higher level = bigger size for Dwagons) ... the size of a 18-wheeler (or larger).

These are like real-life training except it's not so simulated.



OMGWTFBBQ Banana is then Moneymancy upgraded to Heir to Parson's super-secret cult of Pwnamancy :lol: ... no really I wonder if units' stats increase for each level they take ... perhaps Dwagons focus more on Con and Str stat increases, but eventually their Int would get to Erfworlder level and ...
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby DevilDan » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:28 am

Presumably this sort of leveling could always be done by using uncroaked that were about to decay to dust.

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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby moose o death » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:55 am

99.9999999% sure you can't re-de-crypt. let alone re-re-re-re-re-re-de-crypt. it wouldn't even count as a decent delay strategy for the arkenplier attuned as it just makes you a far more obvious target.

the tool would simply not allow the mechanic from happening. if you you lost them once, you'd only lose them again. it would be a slow and boring way to the top if it worked.

as a training excercise, i'll reference the first person shooter in saying no-one likes team killers. the game wouldn't award team killing with exp. it's more likely to auto disband the unit as a rogue. if stanley was ordering it it could autodisband stanley for turning on GK. i'm a believer in the city being more than just passive in it's interaction with the units occupying it.
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby Unclever title » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:02 pm

moose o death wrote:99.9999999% sure you can't re-de-crypt. let alone re-re-re-re-re-re-de-crypt. it wouldn't even count as a decent delay strategy for the arkenplier attuned as it just makes you a far more obvious target.

the tool would simply not allow the mechanic from happening. if you you lost them once, you'd only lose them again. it would be a slow and boring way to the top if it worked.

as a training excercise, i'll reference the first person shooter in saying no-one likes team killers. the game wouldn't award team killing with exp. it's more likely to auto disband the unit as a rogue. if stanley was ordering it it could autodisband stanley for turning on GK. i'm a believer in the city being more than just passive in it's interaction with the units occupying it.


This would also require that decrypted units can level, which I think is likely considering Uncroaked units could ostensibly level (though it's kind of pointless for them to), but if you could re-decrypt which is game breaking enough allowing them to level would be ridiculous.

An ordinary decrypted unit leveling is not so bad though.
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby DevilDan » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:07 pm

I do worry that we're always thinking in terms of what might make Erf unbalanced. Erf is a "real world," and there is no guarantee that the Titans are going to ship a patch or an updated set of rules to make life fair for everyone.
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby Unclever title » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:57 pm

Well, ridiculous doesn't necessarily mean untrue. There are many things in real life that are just ridiculous, mostly people.
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby Hari Seldon » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:03 pm

99.9999999% sure you can't re-de-crypt. let alone re-re-re-re-re-re-de-crypt. it wouldn't even count as a decent delay strategy for the arkenplier attuned as it just makes you a far more obvious target.


The big question is what Ansom says: Decrypting is like "being popped again." What's exactly wrong with being popped a 3rd time? What ISN'T game-breaking about this is the enemy would learn that the only way to stop Wanda was to get Disintigrate and such spells/weapons which totally annihilate the enemy, then Wanda would be left with nothing to Decrypt. Suicide bombing when you die, or perhaps drinking holy water prior to battle would prevent your Decryption. Etc. Sounds like something they would buy from Charlie ... spell protection you know?

So I'm 99.9999999% sure that you can re-re-...decrypt but then the enemy buys Charlie's spell protection and you can't get any more troops. AND as the enemy battles through hexes the enemy would "police" your dead troops and disintegrate them or some such. Remember, Stack bonus only goes up to 6 (I think) so wars in Erfworld have melee front lines with 6 units in them, and reserves of zillions of melee units in the adjacent hexes right behind them that reinforce whenever the front line stack gets below 6. Ranged units are behind the melee reserve line, split into groups of 6 so that every archer "counts" and gets counted in the stacks' bonuses. So as the front line advances, the melee reserves that weren't being moved to the front lines could police the dead.

Also "being popped again" means leveling Decrypted units leveling would make sense (though 'm not so sure that Uncroaked can, since the Uncroaked eventually decay into dust (and going up in level is like the opposite of decaying) and have very small minds). I think the only thing about determining Uncroaked units' level is whether the Uncroaker spent a lot of time uncroaking them (then the units are closer to their original level), or did a mass-raising spell (units are much lower level).



Presumably this sort of leveling could always be done by using uncroaked that were about to decay to dust.

(Very cool username, by the way. I used to go by rdaneel on occasion.)


Thanks :). But since Wanda can Decrypt and never seems to get tired doing it ... I think she'll never use Uncroak again. And I already mentioned how she can Decrypt her units multiple times.



Stanley's side may be the richest and biggest now, but I think that Charlie will eventually come down on Stanley because if Stanley wins and is the only Side left, then Charlie couldn't be an arms dealer anymore. Basically if he manages to get air superiority (Archons' weapons are so powerful they tend to Disintegrate their enemies ... so when Charlie fights Wanda and Charlie has spell protection, Wanda can't raise any of Charlie's dead units nor can Wanda raise any of her own disintegrated units ... :shock:). Once Charlie gets air superiority the Archons can counterspell Wanda on the ground to protect the rest of the troops which might not have the expensive magical anti-Decrypt enchantments Charlie would provide his own units now that Wanda has the Arkenpliers.



as a training excercise, i'll reference the first person shooter in saying no-one likes team killers. the game wouldn't award team killing with exp. it's more likely to auto disband the unit as a rogue. if Stanley was ordering it it could autodisband stanley for turning on GK. i'm a believer in the city being more than just passive in it's interaction with the units occupying it.


If the unit disbands as a barbarian/rouge ... kill them ... decrypt them ... their worldview changes (ex: Ansom) and they're on your side again. And NO GOD you think rulers can't order people killed?! Stanley has such an enormous army he could kill the towns' "civilians" if he wanted to (though that doesn't make sense, killing your Twolls - who have the crafting natural ability) would hurt your city's production, raise the city to the ground, and rebuild it ... just like what Parson did when the volcano erupted ... killing Gobwin Knob and all of its civilians (and everyone else). If Gobwin Knob was able to turn on Parson/Stanely ... it would have done so then. But it didn't. But all of that's missing the point. This is just a military-on-military team killing. The civilians of Gobwin Knob shouldn't care, and some of them might even join in the "drills" if it helps them level faster (and the just get Decrypted afterwards no consequences).



I have one final question: since Parson was able to order a Dragon to do something inside of Gobwin Knob after the turn ended (I don't even know if the Dragon needs to have move since walking in your own city is supposed to be a free action ... though flying might be different ...) this might raise an interesting question: could a high-level-crafter Twoll work some of that side's turn doing some Crafting or something then when he's exhausted and can't do anything else he can be sent to the "drill area" (walking is a free aciton) as a high-level practice dummy (assuming Erfworld just looks at a killed unit's level to determin your EXP, and not their combat+defense ability) to be decrypted afterwards? Bogroll could have, and if other Twolls are that naive they could too. This might allow the military to gain EXP killing high-level units (perhaps a greater EXP gain than simple drilling with other high-level units ... I don't know), or if combat+defense ability is what determines EXP gain at the very least this would let Wanda gain some EXP by practicing her Decrypting :twisted:. Actually I have to say that sounds overpowered. I hope Wanda doesn't gain any EXP from decrypting since having everything killed around her then Decrypting all of them again would let her get to a ridiculous level (ex: everyone in Erfworld is corralled into Gobwin Knob after Stanley rules the world, the Gates are shut to keep everyone in, Stanley orders the civilians to kill each other, chaos ensues, the military finishes them off, Wanda Decrypts everyone and everyone's worldview is reset to being very friendly to Stanley's Side again, and Wanda gains ridiculous EXP).
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby moose o death » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:49 am

being popped again is hardly a conclusive arguement. it's a pun on being "born again" after a life changing event..ie near death experience.

ansom wasn't popped again, he's still ansom and has all of ansom's memory's. so it's less popped again, and more health restored + loyalty reset to (caster+overlord)

and like devildan has just mentioned we're slipping back into treating erfworld like a game again, inspiring loyalty in your men usually doesn't mean threaten them with being used as training dummies once they run out of action. threats and coercion for ineptitude and laziness, sure, but not for no longer being useful this turn.

if they were popped again it would be a level reset to 1 as well making the mechanic your arguing for thoroughly useless.

in a combat situation decrypting more than the first time instantly makes the caster the priority target just as ansom was parson's priority target. you cut off the snakes head to kill it's body.
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby DevilDan » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:16 am

We still don't know the true limitations of decryption. Obviously, there is some effect on the mind or memories, even if it's presumably all for the benefit of the wielder of the arkentool. One possible limitation is that all experience points are wiped out, so earning a new level would mean starting from 0.
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:01 pm

i don't think it's good idea to croak your men every day, again and again. Dieing isn't funny, and dieing in combat even less. It's quite painful. The outlook to die every day of the rest of my life in a painful way isn't a good one. After some thousand turns or so, the first units will start to prefer annihilation to continued pain.

And what would be the use of that kind of leveling? As long as they win battles, they can level the old fashioned way. And every time they win a battle, even with just one survivor, they can decrypt their fallen and the fallen of the other side.
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby DevilDan » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:10 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:i don't think it's good idea to croak your men every day, again and again. Dieing isn't funny, and dieing in combat even less. It's quite painful. The outlook to die every day of the rest of my life in a painful way isn't a good one. After some thousand turns or so, the first units will start to prefer annihilation to continued pain.


Seems to me you'd get used to it, actually. (Not that I'm endorsing the hack or leveling system being discussed.)
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby carisbourg » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:44 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:i don't think it's good idea to croak your men every day, again and again. Dieing isn't funny, and dieing in combat even less. It's quite painful. The outlook to die every day of the rest of my life in a painful way isn't a good one. After some thousand turns or so, the first units will start to prefer annihilation to continued pain.


I dunno, the Viking Heaven of Valhalla sounds like that.
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Re: Arkenpliers = infinite EXP and Stats?

Postby taltamir » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:49 pm

We know that heavily damaged corpses cannot be decrypted.

units MIGHT not be re-decrypted.

units MIGHT not gain XP from killing friendly units

units MIGHT not be able to kill friend units.
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