Book 2 – Page 104

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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Vreejack » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:12 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:I'm amused by the facetious thought that the crucial plot reason that the orientation of the room needed to be corrected was so that the bear could use its right arm to swat Parson down the stairs.


Has somebody been practicing retconjuration? And if they were, would anyone in the story be able to notice?
So...Watashi wa mizugorō ga sukina koto o kiita, neh?
A Prediction is what would have happened had there been no Prediction. What is scary is that they are also what will happen in spite of the Prediction.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby tgriff02 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:20 pm

Vreejack wrote:Has somebody been practicing retconjuration? And if they were, would anyone in the story be able to notice?


Not a retcon, just referencing the fact that Rob had admitted that one of the recent updates was delayed because of a miscommunicaiton between him and Xi that resulted in the throne room being drawn incorrectly in a manor which seriously impacted the the fure story and continuity, and as such had to be redrawn.

But, since the mistake was caught before the comic was posted, and the corrections made before the puclic saw it, it doesn't really count as a retcon.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby C9H20 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:35 pm

Do you guys think Mary Sagittary and other archer troops on the walls are still there?

And if so why don't they come to help out?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Beeskee » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:57 pm

Jetstone ordered most of it's troops out of the city, when Tram was made heir and told to go by Slately.

And GK only needs to win the garrison, and every enemy unit left in the city gets magical handcuffs popping onto their wrists. GK owns the dungeon, the tower is gone, and they're working on the courtyard/atrium now.



I'm glad to see this update, it's pretty sweet. :)


Edit:
It looks like the Jetstone infantry is already gone. On the GK side, I think they still have 1 warlord left besides Parson, and at least a full stack of infantry. I count 10 in the first panel, though I am not sure if one is the other warlord.
Last edited by Beeskee on Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:54 pm

Is the doll just yelling random things, or is it the disembodied spirit of Ace trying to cast?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby mortissimus » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:54 am

drachefly wrote:I'm not sure that was the best way of doing this... but that doesn't mean the scene is wrong. It does make me wonder how Clonely didn't finish him off with pew pew in the mean time.


Clonely is as any wise commander leading from the rear, so I figure he positioned himself behind the battlebear and while screened has limited possibilities of shooting people.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Vreejack » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:59 am

tgriff02 wrote:
Vreejack wrote:Has somebody been practicing retconjuration? And if they were, would anyone in the story be able to notice?


Not a retcon, just referencing the fact that Rob had admitted that one of the recent updates was delayed because of a miscommunicaiton between him and Xi that resulted in the throne room being drawn incorrectly in a manor which seriously impacted the the fure story and continuity, and as such had to be redrawn.

But, since the mistake was caught before the comic was posted, and the corrections made before the puclic saw it, it doesn't really count as a retcon.


I was being too sly, pointing out that the characters cannot notice a retcon. In this case the audience could not notice it. Powerful stuff.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Vreejack » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:02 am

WaterMonkey314 wrote:Is the doll just yelling random things, or is it the disembodied spirit of Ace trying to cast?

She's yelling the names of plush toys from the 1980's, as discussed a few messages back. As to why she is doing that, and what possible power she might gain from it, I have no idea. Perhaps she is simply invoking the names of heroes from days gone by.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Whispri » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:35 am

C9H20 wrote:Do you guys think Mary Sagittary and other archer troops on the walls are still there?

And if so why don't they come to help out?

It's possible, she's part of a low level garrison stack that has been ignored historically.

No orders. They were stationed on the walls and if they weren't ordered elsewhere that's where they'll stay. Note that during the bridge skirmish Wrigley's stack didn't move from where they'd been put until the last friendly Warlord in the hex was dead.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Tathar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:23 pm

Vreejack wrote:They are all plush animal dolls or animated animal characters from the 1980's [edit: All of which have been marketed as plush toys]. I guess Raggedy Ann and GI Joe could both also fit that description, but they both go back a lot farther. Now Parson needs to man up and rip out her candy heart.

Chubble http://www.ghostofthedoll.co.uk/Toys_Chubbles.htm
They live on love, which makes them an especially unusual war cry. Maybe they all starved to death because they ain't around no more.
"Chubbles and friends were produced by Animal Fair in 1984-85. They were interactive plush toys, which reacted to either light or sound with flashing eyes, noses or beeps [sic]. There was also a small set of plastic figures which also lit up."

Snorks are smurf-class animated failures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorks
"The Snorks is an animated television series produced by Hanna-Barbera which ran on NBC from September 15, 1984, to May 13, 1989."

Puffalumps, a Fisher-Price line of plush animal dolls, debuted in 1986 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffalump

Gund Snuffles debuted in 1981 and are also still being made.

Monchichis (technically, "Monchhichi") are also in production under franchise in separate countries. Gund makes* some of them, but Mattel holds the US license. They started in the 70's but there was a Japanese animated show for them beginning in 1980. I'm not sure if it showed outside Japan, however.

Nerfuls: Parker-Brothers figurine toys from the 1980's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerful

The Wuzzles was a very lame animated series involving bizzare hybrid creatures, like a cross between a bee and a lion. (Not named Eric). "With only 13 episodes of Wuzzles, it was one of the shortest running animated series produced by Disney. One season later, Wuzzles moved to ABC (which was eventually sold to Disney) for reruns, and disappeared from network television after that." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wuzzles

*Probably all made in China or Vietnam, actually. But that brings up the question of what it actually means to create something. Never mind.

[edit] If you find a weird looking animal toy from Disney, it's probably a Wuzzle. More people have hurt their bare feet from stepping on them than have actually seen the show.

I can confirm that at least three of those have been featured on Robot Chicken: Snorks, Monchichis, and the Wuzzles. Can Ace cast by proxy? Those sound like casting words rather than battle cries, and giant battle robots sound like his style of casting.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby bladestorm » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:39 pm

Whispri wrote:
C9H20 wrote:Do you guys think Mary Sagittary and other archer troops on the walls are still there?

And if so why don't they come to help out?

It's possible, she's part of a low level garrison stack that has been ignored historically.

No orders. They were stationed on the walls and if they weren't ordered elsewhere that's where they'll stay. Note that during the bridge skirmish Wrigley's stack didn't move from where they'd been put until the last friendly Warlord in the hex was dead.

And Antium's stack, which stayed at the portal until Antium had received his commands. Sylvia was the wildcard and started blazing stuff and ordering Archer to track down the king.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby BrotherRool » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:58 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:
Sonic Screwdriver wrote:Purple is Jack's color, not red. But I wonder if he'll dig up a pink to capture the king.

What I like about that idea is we'd get to see the King disappear at the end of the turn. It's not something you need to see for the story but since we've been given the unique situation it would be a mild shame not to see him go out like that.

It also allows for some good cliffhangers if they want to go that way and Jack is the sort of person who'd probably see the value at the chance of being able to have a chat with the opposing ruler from a position of power, but Parson might be eager to take control of the city as soon as he can which might not fit capture
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Vreejack » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:32 pm

Are you sure the king only lasts till the end of their turn? Usually you get a full turn for these things, so that if you cast them on your turn they can fight defensively until the start of your next turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby eras10 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:39 pm

but Parson might be eager to take control of the city as soon as he can which might not fit capture


We have no ruling officially, but I have a feeling that if you incapacitate someone, capturing them becomes pretty easy. And if every remaining Jetstone unit in the garrison is incapped and captured, that should give GK control of the garrisson and city.

Also, regarding archers on the walls, Tramennis would have been crazy to leave the archers there. Odds are very, very high that they exited with the ground column that exited. It would be crazy for Trammenis to leave them there uselessly to get captured if Slately loses, which he is about to do.

The real question is, since Charlie gambled so heavily to kill Parson this way and had Jetstone over a barrel, in a position to be dictated to, why Charlie allowed Jetstone to send forces against Scarlet insufficient to win.

I suppose it's possible that those Jetstone forces were going to win before Ace kamikazed, but that wasn't the impression I was getting. As I said earlier, why didn't Charlie force Jetstone to use *everything* they had in the area, except maybe Tramennis himself? If you're going to counterattack the garrison and kill Parson, freaking do it all-out. Doing it halfway is just an invitation to lose half your army for nothing, which is more or less what happened.

The most plausible thing I can think of was that the Jetstone fight was going better than it looked in the comic away from the action, and Ace made a rash call in order to kill Sylvia. Who I have been calling scarlet.

I suppppppose there are two other plausible arguments - that Jetstone didn't have to win, just keep the fight going long enough for the city to go inferno, which would have worked if Ace hadn't kamikazed, or else that Jetstone knew Charlie needed them and bargained hard to preserve more of their force. Still, meh. Throwing everything at Sylvia was the best possible option for Jetstone - the heavier the blow, the less people you lose.

Unless, I guess, no set of Jetstone forces had a shot against Sylvia - but with casters on the scene and Wanda out of the loop that seems unlikely, since Trammenis thought Jetstone had a least a possible shot even with Wanda there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby eras10 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:41 pm

The real question is, since Charlie gambled so heavily to kill Parson this way and had Jetstone over a barrel, in a position to be dictated to, why Charlie allowed Jetstone to send forces against Scarlet insufficient to win.


I suppose another possibility is that Charlie thought what was sent was enough, but just flat-out underestimated GK, since combat prediction is not an exact science. Bad time to underestimate, though, and an experienced guy like Charlie should have wanted to hedge against that very thing by having Jetstone bring the kitchen sink.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby bladestorm » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:25 pm

eras10 wrote:
The real question is, since Charlie gambled so heavily to kill Parson this way and had Jetstone over a barrel, in a position to be dictated to, why Charlie allowed Jetstone to send forces against Scarlet insufficient to win.


I suppose another possibility is that Charlie thought what was sent was enough, but just flat-out underestimated GK, since combat prediction is not an exact science. Bad time to underestimate, though, and an experienced guy like Charlie should have wanted to hedge against that very thing by having Jetstone bring the kitchen sink.

War of attrition. It is costing Charlescomm nothing to send all of these Jetstone units against the GK forces. They may not be able to defeat Parson, but that may not be the point. They can take out about 10% of GK's forces, and GK has already had their turn spent for this Turn. Line up some more minorly annoying Sides that have absolutely no chance of winning completely against GK. Haggar isn't far away, and could possibly still make an attack this turn against the GK forces inside of Spacerock. Get GK to spend all of their juice, lose large numbers of their units, perhaps lose large chunks of their leadership and spend all of their scrolls on battles that don't matter.

Then Charlescomm can come in with every available Archon in the area and wipe out whatever is left standing.

Jetstone doesn't have to defeat GK. They've already spent the Foolamancer (defense buff), separated the Croakamancer and artifact from the main force (unit replenishment and overall buff), reduced the number of commanders (leadership buff), and eliminated a chunk of the dwagon population (offense). All while setting up Charlie's target in a place he cannot easily get out of by using previous tactics.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:05 pm

eras10 wrote:I suppose another possibility is that Charlie thought what was sent was enough, but just flat-out underestimated GK, since combat prediction is not an exact science. Bad time to underestimate, though, and an experienced guy like Charlie should have wanted to hedge against that very thing by having Jetstone bring the kitchen sink.

I would say Charlie and Jetstone overestimated GK rather than underestimated. Jetstone's expectation was that the cloth golems would buy time for Slately to get to the throneroom and wait for Parson, not that Jetstone would come close to retaking the garrison. The kamikaze action took place after the Jetstone forces in the courtyard had served their intended purpose.

Charlie did not put himself into a position to dictate anything to Jetstone, because he did not offer any compensation for committing Jetstone units to a counterattack, other than the assurance that Charlie had some kind of plan that would croak Parson if Parson were trapped in the battered ex-capital. He probably felt that the price Jetstone would charge for throwing units into a war of attrition would be too dear, given that Jetstone is not in a position to efficiently turn schmuckers into replacement units. (I think it was mentioned somewhere that Jetstone has lost its natural allies.)

"We kill the fat man." Not "you kill the fat man."


Incidentally, given that Jetstone is abandoning Spacerock to its enemies/frenemies, any damage Ace does to the city's fortifications is probably good for Jetstone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby name lips » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:08 pm

Charlie knows he isn't going to kill Parson. He hopes to back Parson into a corner where he's forced to decide between dying and using the Carnymancy scroll.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby eras10 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:14 pm

Jetstone's expectation was that the cloth golems would buy time for Slately to get to the throneroom and wait for Parson, not that Jetstone would come close to retaking the garrison. The kamikaze action took place after the Jetstone forces in the courtyard had served their intended purpose.


At the risk of stating the obvious, the problem with that plan is when GK finishes killing off the forces Jetstone sends, or even before then, they head down to throne and off slately before he's had the chance to successfully kill Parson. If the goal of the plan is to kill Parson, the odds of that get much higher when all remaining GK forces in the city are dead. I'm saying obvious things here. The failure to finish of GK in the garrison is exactly why this plan is currently failing. And it's not exactly an unforseeable exploit. You are unable to kill Parson if GK kills you instead.

Charlie did not put himself into a position to dictate anything to Jetstone, because he did not offer any compensation for committing Jetstone units to a counterattack


Are you reading a different story than I am? Charlie was in a position to dictate everything to Jetstone. Either he gives Jetstone money and Jetstone promotes Tramennis to heir, or he does not give them money and Jetstone the side goes away next turn. He had them utterly by the balls.

I don't really understand why you would be motivated to disagree with these things. Oh wait, internet message board.

Charlie knows he isn't going to kill Parson. He hopes to back Parson into a corner where he's forced to decide between dying and using the Carnymancy scroll.


This plan also fails when GK forces kill the units with which you were trying to back Parson into a corner. Thus, like the 'kill parson' plan, it would be improved by the additional Jetstone forces not used.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby teratorn » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:46 pm

I think Tram and Slately did the right thing.

Jetstone has very little leadership left to face the real trouble, and that is not only Wanda and the pliers, but also their neighbors. Haggar could very well try a decapitation strike. Winning against Parson, losing most of the troops, and probably high level warlords they scarcely have in the process, and inheriting a destroyed city (no tower, no air defense) and no schmuckers to rebuild it next turn would have been the wrong option. Charlie wants Parson stranded there? Ok, done, it's up to him now.

eras10 wrote:Are you reading a different story than I am? Charlie was in a position to dictate everything to Jetstone. Either he gives Jetstone money and Jetstone promotes Tramennis to heir, or he does not give them money and Jetstone the side goes away next turn. He had them utterly by the balls.

I don't really understand why you would be motivated to disagree with these things. Oh wait, internet message board.


Yes, you seem to be reading a different story. Charlie could not corner Jetstone that way, he wanted them to agree. He really needs that archon, and he really needs them to give him Parson. Luckily for him it was Slately and not Tram doing the negotiations. He already invested a lot in this battle, what's a little money and a fleet of archons?
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