Book 2 – Page 104

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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby drachefly » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:17 am

I'd like to point out that Haggar is presently on turn, since they're a member of RCC2.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby cheeseaholic » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:29 am

I doubt that a horde of arrowless archers would be all that useful attacking a wall of dwagons. However next turn they'll be good defence against a horde of dwagons when they got all their ammo back. In the meantime Jetstone at least looks like they can defend themselves against Hagar, wild roaming beasts and barbarians wont end the side, and they won't be down to Goodminton power levels. Had Charlie tried to convince Slatley to send in all the archers, he might have been able to do it. Maybe. But by that time it would have been too late. Either Parson would have been turned back by the carnies or he would have been in the battle proper and GK would have taken less casualties under his guidance anyway. Why should Charlie risk failing his plan completely in order to make GK come out with more? And if all else fails with all those archers are alive the war isn't lost even if the battle is. Sending the archers in there is stupid for Jetstone and impossible for Charlie. Even if he tries now there's no way Trem would risk everything to kill one enemy warlord. Even if they manage to hold the capital it wouldn't be worth the cost at this point.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Swodaems » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:05 pm

Is anyone else hoping that Parson will actually die here? Or says "Fuck it" and goes home?

The story's Parson-centered updates have been somewhat alienating for quite a while. In the interest of providing feedback, I've listed a few of the reasons why.
-The sudden jump he's made from being an intellectual hero to an action hero has simply happened too fast. I would have liked to have seen more of the transition phase before seeing Parson choosing to go face to face with his enemy.
-Parson has decided to place himself at tremendous personal risk for characters that I have little connection to and that we haven't seen much evidence of Parson having a connection to either. Antium, Lacrosse, and Sylvia are the only named GK characters left for Parson to save by the time he passes thru the portal. (Jack doesn't count since Jack could have escaped.) Parson has already failed to save the one with the most development.
-Additionally, his arrival and actions on the battlefield have felt far too forced.
--It feels like Parson has simply been handed the opportunity to take credit for finishing the battle when it was his underlings doing most of the work. Jack and Wanda got themselves to safety. The archons croaked Slately. Archer and Sylvia were the ones who cleared the rest of the garrison. Sizemore, Janis, Marie, Maggie, and Charlie were the ones who cleared Parson's path thru the magic kingdom. Parson's contributions to this battle so far are a single useful idea and "leading" a small army versus Clonely, Ace, a handful of soldiers and a couple dolls. By placing Parson in what appears to be the climactic battle, the story feels like it is asking me to give Parson too much credit.
--The problems Parson faced in the Magic Kingdom were represented by people who didn't act in a realistic manner. In particular, the actions of the great minds seemed very off. They had a far superior negotiating position and let themselves be shouted into submission by Maggie with little explanation as to why they felt the need to back down. The manner in which the thinkamancers allowed Parson thru, presenting the action as their side of some deal, means that they have taken the risk of publically tying themselves to his action for little gain. (The impression I get from the story is that, even with the predictamancers on Parson's side, the thinkamancers could have had enough from the other casters present to be able to get help stopping Parson going thru the portal. The denizens of the magic kingdom seem reasonable enough that the thinkamancers could ask that nothing lethal be done to him and expect for everyone to comply.)



The story could go on without Parson and do quite well. Parson has made himself largely redundant during the period between book 1 and book 2.
He spent that time creating several generalized gambits (such as the one that grabbed Ossomer at the start of Book 2) for GK to use. These could be pulled out of a hat and applied to a current situation as needed.
He has also been talking and teaching his way of thinking to Jack, Sizemore, Maggie, and others. This would allow for Parson's attitude, intellect, and sympathies to continue to influence the story even after he is gone.




eras10 wrote:Also, regarding archers on the walls, Tramennis would have been crazy to leave the archers there. Odds are very, very high that they exited with the ground column that exited. It would be crazy for Trammenis to leave them there uselessly to get captured if Slately loses, which he is about to do.

Actually, Trammenis may not have been able to evacuate every unit off the wall. While most of the archers on the walls were field units, we have proof that others were garrison archers with no ability to leave the hex. While they could have been promoted to field by a commander*, there is a good chance that they weren't promoted due to money problems or lack of commander awareness. (*I admit I stretching the evidence when I say commander. Thus far, we've only seen a ruler and a chief warlord promote. The klog about off turn actions mentions that casters can promote.)

We didn't see Jetstone archers during the King's suicide charge to the throne room. (We only saw Ace's golems throwing things and a GK archer warlord.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby BrotherRool » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:12 pm

Charlie still has a card to play right? It was his plan to strand Parson here and presumably do something with that and until we see what that is I don't know if we can call his decision not to fully commit wise or not. It seems like Jetstone getting the upper hand here involved a lot of risk, so there isn't a guarantee that committing full forces would do what they need to do and maybe he's got a surer chance with the second stage of his plan once he got Parson trapped.

Even if that's not the case, there's a limit to how much he can force Slately to commit. Slately needs Tram to have a force capable of survival and sustaining the side otherwise the sacrifice is meaningless, so Charlie can't commit more forces than a certain point. If that point isn't enough to guarantee a Parson kill (and maybe there's some fate protecting Parson. I wouldn't be surprised) then committing the minimum amount to ensure Slately does his job is wiser because it leaves Jetstone as a powerful ally

Vreejack wrote:Are you sure the king only lasts till the end of their turn? Usually you get a full turn for these things, so that if you cast them on your turn they can fight defensively until the start of your next turn.

If they capture him it doesn't matter right? They'd have control of him for a sufficient length of time that he could disappear whenever the length of the spell is
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Kreistor » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:44 pm

BrotherRool wrote:Charlie still has a card to play right? It was his plan to strand Parson here and presumably do something with that and until we see what that is I don't know if we can call his decision not to fully commit wise or not. It seems like Jetstone getting the upper hand here involved a lot of risk, so there isn't a guarantee that committing full forces would do what they need to do and maybe he's got a surer chance with the second stage of his plan once he got Parson trapped.


Charlie is ahead of GK in Natural Turn order, so he can still move Archons in before GK can recover. That's why it's vital for Parson to convince Stanley to move Capital to Spacerock so Wanda can come in from the MK before next Turn start.

No matter how it goes down... this is at best a Pyrrhic victory. Expeditionary Force GK is wrecked, and needs to recover. Especially dwagon and Archon numbers. Far too many were risked and lost on this.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby tgriff02 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:20 pm

Kreistor wrote:
BrotherRool wrote:Charlie still has a card to play right? It was his plan to strand Parson here and presumably do something with that and until we see what that is I don't know if we can call his decision not to fully commit wise or not. It seems like Jetstone getting the upper hand here involved a lot of risk, so there isn't a guarantee that committing full forces would do what they need to do and maybe he's got a surer chance with the second stage of his plan once he got Parson trapped.


Charlie is ahead of GK in Natural Turn order, so he can still move Archons in before GK can recover. That's why it's vital for Parson to convince Stanley to move Capital to Spacerock so Wanda can come in from the MK before next Turn start.

No matter how it goes down... this is at best a Pyrrhic victory. Expeditionary Force GK is wrecked, and needs to recover. Especially dwagon and Archon numbers. Far too many were risked and lost on this.

Hmmm.. I though Charlescom had its turn AFTER GK, so they would go last this round, but it may be first. Either way, Charlie gets his turn before GK gets their next one, so it's a moot point. I'm inclined to agree. Whatever else Charlie has planned, and whether or not his plan succeeds, they have succeeded derailing the GK steamroller. But in answer to the original question; Yes, the general assumption is that Charlie has some other card to play, that his manipulation of Fakely and JS was just the set up for whatever he's about to do. Of course, Parson doesn't know any of that, so he's rabidly trying to croak the clone he thinks is the real king and to end the fight.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby tgriff02 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:23 pm

BTW, Kreistor, love the links in your siggy, handy for quick referencing. Just now noticed them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby C9H20 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:24 pm

Kreistor wrote:
BrotherRool wrote:Charlie still has a card to play right? It was his plan to strand Parson here and presumably do something with that and until we see what that is I don't know if we can call his decision not to fully commit wise or not. It seems like Jetstone getting the upper hand here involved a lot of risk, so there isn't a guarantee that committing full forces would do what they need to do and maybe he's got a surer chance with the second stage of his plan once he got Parson trapped.


Charlie is ahead of GK in Natural Turn order, so he can still move Archons in before GK can recover. That's why it's vital for Parson to convince Stanley to move Capital to Spacerock so Wanda can come in from the MK before next Turn start.

No matter how it goes down... this is at best a Pyrrhic victory. Expeditionary Force GK is wrecked, and needs to recover. Especially dwagon and Archon numbers. Far too many were risked and lost on this.


Another possibility is that Charlie has allied with a third party that has its natural turn after both Jetstone and GK, that way Charlie could roll in his Archons before GK even has a chance to replenish caster juice or troop hitpoints in the morning leaving them even more vulnerable, which would otherwise happen if Charlie acted alone.

If Parson convinces Stanley to switch capitals this distinction isn't as important but there you go :P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Vreejack » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:57 pm

drachefly wrote:I'd like to point out that Haggar is presently on turn, since they're a member of RCC2.


I was wondering about that. It would be amusing to see Haggar wander in after a couple of pages and say, "Hello, baby!" And Charlie might try to convince them it is a good idea. After all, it was their idea from the beginning to wander in after the battle was over and claim the city for their own. However, after their initial dealings with Charlie I suspect they high-tailed it back to their capitol. If, on the other hand, they stayed in attack range, then their overlord is truly devious.
So...Watashi wa mizugorō ga sukina koto o kiita, neh?
A Prediction is what would have happened had there been no Prediction. What is scary is that they are also what will happen in spite of the Prediction.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Vreejack » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:31 am

Swodaems wrote:Is anyone else hoping that Parson will actually die here? Or says "Fuck it" and goes home?

The story's Parson-centered updates have been somewhat alienating for quite a while. In the interest of providing feedback, I've listed a few of the reasons why.
-The sudden jump he's made from being an intellectual hero to an action hero has simply happened too fast. I would have liked to have seen more of the transition phase before seeing Parson choosing to go face to face with his enemy.

How do you imagine that would work? It's already a pretty small battle, with maybe a dozen units, total. In the last book he faced hundreds, and actually decapitated one.
Swodaems wrote:-Parson has decided to place himself at tremendous personal risk for characters that I have little connection to and that we haven't seen much evidence of Parson having a connection to either. Antium, Lacrosse, and Sylvia are the only named GK characters left for Parson to save by the time he passes thru the portal. (Jack doesn't count since Jack could have escaped.) Parson has already failed to save the one with the most development.
Parson has no real way to determine what units exist outside his range of vision. When he left GK there was a huge and important force in Spacerock, including Wanda, Jack, Ossimer, Sylvia, the dwagons, and the other units. At the moment he probably hasn't even considered that the units remaining in Spacerock might be a wash. Duty compelled him to try, and there is no turning back now.
Swodaems wrote: -Additionally, his arrival and actions on the battlefield have felt far too forced.

Because Maggie screwed up? Her reasoning made sense within the parameters of the story.
Swodaems wrote: --It feels like Parson has simply been handed the opportunity to take credit for finishing the battle when it was his underlings doing most of the work. Jack and Wanda got themselves to safety. The archons croaked Slately. Archer and Sylvia were the ones who cleared the rest of the garrison. Sizemore, Janis, Marie, Maggie, and Charlie were the ones who cleared Parson's path thru the magic kingdom. Parson's contributions to this battle so far are a single useful idea and "leading" a small army versus Clonely, Ace, a handful of soldiers and a couple dolls. By placing Parson in what appears to be the climactic battle, the story feels like it is asking me to give Parson too much credit.

On the one hand you are saying that the story does not give Parson any credit for winning the battle, and on the other hand you are complaining that it gives him too much credit. Are you afraid someone is going to be confused?
Swodaems wrote: --The problems Parson faced in the Magic Kingdom were represented by people who didn't act in a realistic manner. In particular, the actions of the great minds seemed very off. They had a far superior negotiating position and let themselves be shouted into submission by Maggie with little explanation as to why they felt the need to back down. The manner in which the thinkamancers allowed Parson thru, presenting the action as their side of some deal, means that they have taken the risk of publically tying themselves to his action for little gain. (The impression I get from the story is that, even with the predictamancers on Parson's side, the thinkamancers could have had enough from the other casters present to be able to get help stopping Parson going thru the portal. The denizens of the magic kingdom seem reasonable enough that the thinkamancers could ask that nothing lethal be done to him and expect for everyone to comply.)

We do not know what the agenda of the thinkamancers is. They actually reported that Parson is caught up in at least four Predictions, and we do not know all of them. It is impossible to make any kind of argument about the logic of their actions until we know more. And they found Maggie's argument compelling, which is actually interesting.

We can argue that Maggie erred in sending Parson out in the first place, but there was a general zeitgeist of "putting Parson Gotti in charge" in certain circles, and Maggie seems to have been caught up in it. Now TGMWTA are caught up in it as well.
Swodaems wrote:The story could go on without Parson and do quite well. Parson has made himself largely redundant during the period between book 1 and book 2.
He spent that time creating several generalized gambits (such as the one that grabbed Ossomer at the start of Book 2) for GK to use. These could be pulled out of a hat and applied to a current situation as needed.
He has also been talking and teaching his way of thinking to Jack, Sizemore, Maggie, and others. This would allow for Parson's attitude, intellect, and sympathies to continue to influence the story even after he is gone.

True enough, but I think Parson is in the story for the long haul. It is, in effect, his story. And this is where he wants to be, pulling crazy gambits out of his ass to literally save his own life, and those of his friends. And sometimes he thinks of actually saving the whole world of Erf, if only he can figure out how.
So...Watashi wa mizugorō ga sukina koto o kiita, neh?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby effataigus » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:57 am

Swodaems wrote:Is anyone else hoping that Parson will actually die here? Or says "Fuck it" and goes home?
I wasn't since I'm a Parson fan generally, but I think you've made a reasonably compelling case. Parson's actions, and the actions of people dealing with Parson, have not made sense to me in book 2. If you erase the magic kingdom scene, pretend Wanda didn't stick around because she doesn't actually give a hoot about Spacerock rather than "because muffin," and replace Parson with some random overly-eager level 2 warlord who really really wants to level up and is immune to portal disbanding...

... then you're left with the Tragic Tale of the Twice Dead Prince... a touching memoir for the stalwart second son of Jetstone, who broke, but wouldn't bend.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Oberon » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:59 pm

teratorn wrote:
eras10 wrote:Are you reading a different story than I am? Charlie was in a position to dictate everything to Jetstone. Either he gives Jetstone money and Jetstone promotes Tramennis to heir, or he does not give them money and Jetstone the side goes away next turn. He had them utterly by the balls.

I don't really understand why you would be motivated to disagree with these things. Oh wait, internet message board.

Yes, you seem to be reading a different story. Charlie could not corner Jetstone that way, he wanted them to agree. He really needs that archon, and he really needs them to give him Parson. Luckily for him it was Slately and not Tram doing the negotiations. He already invested a lot in this battle, what's a little money and a fleet of archons?
Unless you assume that Charlie was lying, you're the one reading the different story. He wanted the archon, and paid for it according to terms agreed upon previously, when JS wasn't in such a weak bargaining position. He needs them to give him Parson? Not so much. He can't assume Parson will survive when he has not only specifically discussed plans for having him trapped and killed, but also didn't even ask Slately to attempt a capture. No JS unit will be capturing Parson, they are looking for the kill. Did you miss "Pew"? That isn't a capturing attack.

Swodaems wrote: --The problems Parson faced in the Magic Kingdom were represented by people who didn't act in a realistic manner. In particular, the actions of the great minds seemed very off. They had a far superior negotiating position and let themselves be shouted into submission by Maggie with little explanation as to why they felt the need to back down. The manner in which the thinkamancers allowed Parson thru, presenting the action as their side of some deal, means that they have taken the risk of publically tying themselves to his action for little gain.
I don't believe it's time for Parson to go home, and I don't think that he has made "a sudden jump" from being an intellectual leader to an action hero. He has clearly stated that he was not willing to send people into harm's way without risking himself. His ability to do this was delayed by Stanley's constant promotion of other CWL. Once he was made CWL he lived up to his commitment.

However, I do agree cmpletely with the quoted section above. I said the exact same thing at the time, that it looked like the thinkamancers decided to allow Parson through because Maggie said the same thing she'd been saying all along, just LOUDER. Their stated objection to allowing the MK to be used as a vector for warmaking was quite strong, and then they just gave up on it (almost) entirely. In for a penny, in for a pound, the MK can never again claim neutrality.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Angband » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:29 pm

Is it just me, or does the doll on top of parson's cloak TOTALLY look like Téodor from Achewood?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby joosy » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:49 pm

C9H20 wrote:Another possibility is that Charlie has allied with a third party that has its natural turn after both Jetstone and GK, that way Charlie could roll in his Archons before GK even has a chance to replenish caster juice or troop hitpoints in the morning leaving them even more vulnerable, which would otherwise happen if Charlie acted alone.

If Parson convinces Stanley to switch capitals this distinction isn't as important but there you go :P


Not quite, remember from Book 1 when Charlie took his turn before GK to move his archons into the GK's airspace and then later allied with Jetstone. His archons were still stuck in the airspace.

Ergo, if Charlie were to ally with Jetstone/Haggar/anyone again his archons would still have to wait until their allies turn before they had move again.

The only exception I could think of would be if the Archons wold surrender/turn to Haggar and they would then share move with them on the same turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby bladestorm » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:12 pm

joosy wrote:
C9H20 wrote:Another possibility is that Charlie has allied with a third party that has its natural turn after both Jetstone and GK, that way Charlie could roll in his Archons before GK even has a chance to replenish caster juice or troop hitpoints in the morning leaving them even more vulnerable, which would otherwise happen if Charlie acted alone.

If Parson convinces Stanley to switch capitals this distinction isn't as important but there you go :P


Not quite, remember from Book 1 when Charlie took his turn before GK to move his archons into the GK's airspace and then later allied with Jetstone. His archons were still stuck in the airspace.

Ergo, if Charlie were to ally with Jetstone/Haggar/anyone again his archons would still have to wait until their allies turn before they had move again.

The only exception I could think of would be if the Archons wold surrender/turn to Haggar and they would then share move with them on the same turn.

We don't actually know if he officially allied, or if Jetstone merely bought some services. He could have ended turn (thus allowing the other Sides present to take their Turn), and then waited for an opportunity to attack after gauging the odds of victory. Charlie has a rule concerning betting on horses. We know from GK's actions at Jetstone, after having been forced Off Turn, that they could still engage the enemy, despite having no move.

Also, Slately stated that Charlescomm was in an informal alliance with Jetstone, which means he s still On Turn until Jetstone calls for End of Turn, or he breaks alliance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Kreistor » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:57 pm

bladestorm wrote:We don't actually know if he officially allied, or if Jetstone merely bought some services.


Actually, we do:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-19.png

Line 1: "Charlescomm was formally allied with no side in this battlespace, and so the six of them had taken their turn at dawn."

Which says two things. First, Charlescomm moves first of all Sides/Alliances, so my sttement that Charlescomm moves before GK is accurate. I could go back and show it over and over in Book 1, but this is simpler and faster.

And, 2, Charlescomm already moved this Turn. They move at dawn tomorrow. "Informal alliances" do not change your Turn order.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:23 pm

Oberon wrote:He needs them to give him Parson? Not so much. He can't assume Parson will survive when he has not only specifically discussed plans for having him trapped and killed, but also didn't even ask Slately to attempt a capture. No JS unit will be capturing Parson, they are looking for the kill. Did you miss "Pew"? That isn't a capturing attack.

Even before Parson scared him into thinking kill rather than capture, Charlie (allegedly) cared more about the mathamancy bracer than about Parson, so it's interesting that he didn't offer Jetstone a bounty on it.

Given his interest in the bracer, it seems likely that Charlie doesn't think any Jetstone commander will successfully acquire Parson's magic items and then reach or establish a defensible position. Until Jetstone is in danger of losing their move due to an involuntary end of turn, the Jetstone air and ground forces ought to be waiting close enough to Spacerock to return just in case Slately wins by some fluke (e.g., Fatal Crash). This suggests that Charlie is betting against Slately and didn't want to telegraph the value of Parson's magic items, which might have encouraged Jetstone to risk more forces.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby ShieldOfAthena » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:23 pm

Not sure why everyone is convinced Kingworld means GK lost their turn. The RCC2 went before GK naturally (they deployed in the hex by the bridge, Hagar moved up, etc.,) all on their turn, then GK had its turn, with the deveiling and the capturing of Ossommer and the what not. Kingworld switched it so it is the RCC2's turn again... but who is to say when they end turn it won't immediately be GK's turn, as that is still the natural turn order?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:59 pm

ShieldOfAthena wrote:Not sure why everyone is convinced Kingworld means GK lost their turn. The RCC2 went before GK naturally (they deployed in the hex by the bridge, Hagar moved up, etc.,) all on their turn, then GK had its turn, with the deveiling and the capturing of Ossommer and the what not. Kingworld switched it so it is the RCC2's turn again... but who is to say when they end turn it won't immediately be GK's turn, as that is still the natural turn order?

It might not make much difference. How far can the fat man run in one turn? Probably not far enough to reach a more defensible position than Spacerock. And what reinforcements could GK send to him?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 104

Postby Kreistor » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:46 am

ShieldOfAthena wrote:Not sure why everyone is convinced Kingworld means GK lost their turn. The RCC2 went before GK naturally (they deployed in the hex by the bridge, Hagar moved up, etc.,) all on their turn, then GK had its turn, with the deveiling and the capturing of Ossommer and the what not. Kingworld switched it so it is the RCC2's turn again... but who is to say when they end turn it won't immediately be GK's turn, as that is still the natural turn order?


This was a major topic early in Book 1. Alliances move on the Turn order of the last member of the Alliance. RCC1 moved after GK, on Jetstone's Turn order, since they were the last to move of all RCC1 allies. (You can see this in Charlescomm's Turn. It begins with RCC1 on RCC1 Turn, then when alliance is dissolved, moves before GK.) Since RCC2 includes Jetstone, RCC2 moves after GK in the Turn order, too.

No, I don't think there is any in comic proof of that Natural Turn order, or that Jetstone was the last to move. You had to be on the GitP forums and catch it. It was a Word of the Titans that didn't get transferred to the Wiki.

Since we find the RCC2 armies deployed at Exposition bridge on GK's turn, that is not an indication that they moved this Turn. They, obviously camped at the bridge (which is a choke point, making GK's route predictable) over night. Your assumption RCC2 already moved this Turn has no foundation in the comic.

[Edit: Follow-up]

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-03-15.jpg

"Haggar's natural turn is after Jetstone's."

RCC2 is moving even later than RCC1, on Haggar's Natural Turn order. It cannot have already moved this Turn. Sorry.
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