Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby Kreistor » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:25 am

bladestorm wrote:Oh the irony of pointing out "Your Side, My Side, and the Truth", and informing the other side that they are wrong in their interpretation....
And GAH! wth did you do to the quotes? They were jacked up so bad that it got even worse when I tried to quote you.


We're limited to three layers deep quoting. I hit the fourth, so had to cut out. Unfortunately, I missed one line, and wound up with three /quote's for one quote. HTML is a... well let's say it's annoying sometimes. I fixed the original.

And, indeed, it is ironic, but then, everything with interpretation is fundamentally vulnerable, isn't it. All conversations about Three Edge will be inherently ironic, by definition.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby drachefly » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:32 pm

Duric wrote:Olive as a fugitive. Her turn should be right before faq turn

Not on haffaton turn


That's a very interesting point. She might not be able to leave after all!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby bladestorm » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:19 pm

drachefly wrote:
Duric wrote:Olive as a fugitive. Her turn should be right before faq turn

Not on haffaton turn


That's a very interesting point. She might not be able to leave after all!

Do we have separate rules for Fugitive status and Prisoner status? And just how Fugitive can Olive be, if she can leave the city and be back on Haffaton territory?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby teratorn » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:38 pm

drachefly wrote:
Duric wrote:Olive as a fugitive. Her turn should be right before faq turn

Not on haffaton turn


That's a very interesting point. She might not be able to leave after all!


As a ruler she can end Haffaton's turn. Then it's her turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby peteratjet » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:00 pm

bladestorm wrote:Oh the irony of pointing out "Your Side, My Side, and the Truth", and informing the other side that they are wrong in their interpretation....


If the truth lies somewhere between "a metaphor" and "a dildo" then we may never locate it. :?

However, given that Kreistor agrees with me, I think he's probably on the right track ... Never mind the prospect of JMS' head exploding
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby ftl » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:38 pm

teratorn wrote:
drachefly wrote:
Duric wrote:Olive as a fugitive. Her turn should be right before faq turn

Not on haffaton turn


That's a very interesting point. She might not be able to leave after all!


As a ruler she can end Haffaton's turn. Then it's her turn.



Would her move have dropped to zero when she was taken prisoner?

Erfworld's rules about movement are weird. Technically, in a sense, you ARE to move between hexes on other sides turns - except your move always drops to zero at the end of your turn and gets replenished at the start of your next turn, so on other sides' turns you never have any move, and you can't cross hex (or zone) boundaries if you don't have move.

If being taken prisoner doesn't actually remove your remaining move, then Olive would still be able to move on Haffaton's turn this time, since she never ended Haffaton's turn and so could still have had the move.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby drachefly » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:54 pm

I suspect that this particular case is unusual enough (capital captured on your own turn) that everyone could have forgotten or never known what the rules are, and there's actually a lot less rush than they think.

Or if you're captured on your turn, you continue moving on your turn until your captors' next turn. The rule was apparently to give the prisoners a chance to move first, so this would accomplish that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby cheeseaholic » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:29 pm

Is it Hafaton's turn? There might not be any of their units left in the battlespace.

Which also might not end their turn if it's already started....
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby joosy » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:30 pm

drachefly wrote:I suspect that this particular case is unusual enough (capital captured on your own turn) that everyone could have forgotten or never known what the rules are, and there's actually a lot less rush than they think.

Or if you're captured on your turn, you continue moving on your turn until your captors' next turn. The rule was apparently to give the prisoners a chance to move first, so this would accomplish that.


That does make sense, but the balance to that would most likely be that if you were out of move and captured then you would not gain your captors move (unless there are exceptions for that). That would mean my idea for Charlie to have several archons to be 'captured' by Haggar and then be moved ino the garrison to fight Parson as unworkable. bah.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby bladestorm » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:38 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:Is it Hafaton's turn? There might not be any of their units left in the battlespace.

Which also might not end their turn if it's already started....

The tinman golem signaled the start of Haffaton's turn, and at the same moment Olive received the new senses of Overlady. Right after that, Jillian attacked. So far as we know, Haffaton has not ended turn. There may be a rules hack where Faq has to wait until Haffaton ends turn before they get their Move for the Turn, which Olive won't want to do unless she knows she can get away. Or maybe she can still use a ruler's natural thinkamancy to order nearby troops to attack Efbaum.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby cheeseaholic » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:42 pm

It might be Haffaton's turn at that point of time, but I mean is it their turn in the battlespace if they have no remaining units there?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby tgriff02 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:05 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:It might be Haffaton's turn at that point of time, but I mean is it their turn in the battlespace if they have no remaining units there?

Time is relative from one hex to another, but as far as we know Turn Order is set among sides engaged in a conflict or otherwise directly interacting with each other, and Faq/Haffaton are most DEFINITELY engaged in a conflict at this point. Based on my understanding of Erftime/Turn order; it shouldn't matter what hex you are in, as long as both Haffaton and Faq units are in the same hex, it is currently Haffaton's Turn in that hex.

Edited to complete the thought since I hit submit too soon, lol.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby Neko » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:03 pm

So how does having a sides' Ruler as a Prisoner/Fugitive effect things? I'm sure Olive's first order of business upon becoming Overlady was not to appoint an Heir. Heck. we're fairly sure based on what the text has told us that Haffaton probably doesn't have the Treasury to afford the cost of designating an Heir. So if Olive is a Prisoner/Fugitive and Haffaton has no Heir, is the whole side outside of the hex in that wierd dormant state until Olive escapes Efbaum?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby Not Me » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:17 pm

Not sure about how the move works.
So far I could find the following:

http://www.erfworld.com/2012/09/inner-peace-through-superior-firepower-%E2%80%93-episode-044/

The open field between here and the stone garden had been without so much as an uncroaked infantryman to spot her. Her shackles had fallen off and vanished as soon as she’d entered a new hex. Barefoot and chilly in her prisoner’s garb (a light cotton chemise and shorts), she’d crept her way through a grove of apple trees that grew up against the city’s north wall.

She declined to steal any of the apples.

After a treacherous three-story climb, she’d pulled herself up to an unmanned arrow slit. Jillian then chipped at the mortar with the tip of her sword, loosened and removed two stones, and managed to squeeze her way inside. Inching around the castle corridors, she saw exactly one enemy unit—an uncroaked guard manning a parapet—and was not spotted by it.

Now the fugitive Princess crouched in the shadows on the city docks, trying to decide which of these Haffaton vessels to steal.


http://www.erfworld.com/2012/10/inner-peace-through-superior-firepower-%E2%80%93-episode-045/

As a fugitive, she took her move on Haffaton’s turn. But she moved first, as if she were the first Haffaton unit to receive orders. This gave her a jump, and she had been putting it to good use, scouting and evading. She’d probably been spotted at least once by a patrol, and had skirted one large city, but was able to flee without any engagements.


As things stand right now, I would guess Olive is still a Prisoner and not a Fugitive, so I guess that what the second quote says does not apply to her.
I would expect something similar to what is mentioned in the update of the first quote. Jillian, as a Prisoner, was able to enter a new hex. I would assume it was while Haffaton was on turn, since Wanda "must attend to certain matters" but haven't found anything conclusive about that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby Aquillion » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:39 pm

Denar wrote:Orwell's still alive? Interesting. Everyone had pretty much assumed that it [his death] was something that didn't need to be outright stated.

Also, I don't like this "Fate will borrow numbers from somewhere," justification. Got a feeling that this foreshadowing will manifest itself quite malevolently later on. (ha, maybe it'll make Orwell fail an incapacitation save and he'll suddenly croak!)
As people keep pointing out, Orwell can't die. Faq needs an experienced, dedicated lookamancer for its defense trick to work (the trick we know was still active up until Stanley crushed them), and those don't grow on trees.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby Denar » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:23 pm

Aquillion wrote:
Denar wrote:Orwell's still alive? Interesting. Everyone had pretty much assumed that it [his death] was something that didn't need to be outright stated.

Also, I don't like this "Fate will borrow numbers from somewhere," justification. Got a feeling that this foreshadowing will manifest itself quite malevolently later on. (ha, maybe it'll make Orwell fail an incapacitation save and he'll suddenly croak!)
As people keep pointing out, Orwell can't die. Faq needs an experienced, dedicated lookamancer for its defense trick to work (the trick we know was still active up until Stanley crushed them), and those don't grow on trees.


Actually, afaik, a Lookamancer is never mentioned by Jillian as being utilised by Faq in order to protect itself from other sides. Just Jack and Marie.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F082.jpg ->only mentions Jack
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F107.jpg -> "[Jack veiled] One city at a time, as determined by a Predictamancer." From this, it looks like FAQ managed just fine without "an experienced, dedicated lookamancer."

I mean, Rob seems to have most of this planned out, so I don't think that it only occurred to him while writing up Book 0 to include Orwell's character (whose role is seemingly more important than Marie's in telling Jack where to place his veils - why wouldn't Jillian mention him but would mention both Jack and Marie?).

I would guess that, once Faq has Wanda, it's destined by her Fate to not fall until Stanley arrives, which means Marie can give more objective Predictions as to where Jack needs to put his veils (instead of the old "You will get ambushed at some point by someone somewhere" that Jillian hates).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby Whispri » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Aquillion wrote:
Denar wrote:Orwell's still alive? Interesting. Everyone had pretty much assumed that it [his death] was something that didn't need to be outright stated.

Also, I don't like this "Fate will borrow numbers from somewhere," justification. Got a feeling that this foreshadowing will manifest itself quite malevolently later on. (ha, maybe it'll make Orwell fail an incapacitation save and he'll suddenly croak!)
As people keep pointing out, Orwell can't die. Faq needs an experienced, dedicated lookamancer for its defense trick to work (the trick we know was still active up until Stanley crushed them), and those don't grow on trees.

Sure he can, they have Wanda, the mistress of many sorceries, working for them. And they can always strengthen Faq's Tower to give her a boost.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby Beeskee » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:23 am

Awesome update. Some nice re-iteration of rules we already knew, probably to clarify things for us in the upcoming comic updates.

"When a garrison fell, the remaining units in other zones of the city were captured automagically."


And some hints at things we suspected:

"The target was still a commander, able and expected to escape." - Seemed pretty obvious but I don't remember if it was spelled out before: It's heavily implying that non-commanders can only pretty much just sit there and suck it up.


"Sister Marie will let me know when I am meant to shoot." - We've seen this before, more or less, when Wanda was still with Goodminton. With a Predictamancer, they held off a side's entire incursion force, croaking more than half of them before they knew what was up, and bluffed the other side into leaving. Or maybe they weren't bluffing at all.. Predictamancers seem like incredibly useful units in combat. Though given what we saw of how Luckamancy works, I wonder if Predictamancy also 'steals' good results from other battles to make up the difference.



vintermann wrote:There's a flaw in their thinking, though: Jillian is fated to kill the ruler of Haffaton, so unless the spell consists in firing Jillian at Olive, sword first, it will miss.


Not necessarily. Any non-lethal strike will be fine.



Neko wrote:Which begs the question...with a Healomancer on your side, why isn't Faq FLUSH with healing scrolls? Or at least in possession of ONE that the Ruler keeps in a pouch?


Only casters seem to be able to use scrolls, so they wouldn't help the average warlord. Also, for whatever reason, we've seen more sides with casters apparently sitting idle than we have sides who are grinding items. Wanda ordered her casters to make scrolls nonstop, but that is the only example I remember.

We don't know much about scrolls, or how many a caster can make each turn, or whether they get some kind of penalty for making 'too many' - we DO know that casters have a limited amount of juice, and that casters suffer from normal fatigue, like being tired. We also know that Banhammer treated his casters very well. And "Okay, now spend the rest of the turn making scrolls." sounds reasonable, but let me rephrase it: "Okay, now spend the rest of the day working unpaid overtime." Still sound as reasonable? :D Remember that these guys are pretty much slaves. Actually worse off in some ways, given that they can be mind-controlled with orders, killed with a thought, and stop existing without their side except under certain special conditions. I think Banhammer would be as much of a slack boss as the world allows him to be, and turning his casters into some kind of scroll assembly line sweatshop probably goes against one or more of his Pillars of Verbosity.

It's also possible that Faq *was* producing tons of scrolls, and then selling them. It would be a good way to make up the money they seem to be missing, based on the rest of what we know about the economy - which admittedly isn't much.


Denar wrote:In the current Book 2 update, the garrison has fallen - Ace left it to join the King, and now a GK commander, Jack, is in there with all the leftover dwagons. Can't they claim the garrison (we know it's empty because the unled dwagons would autoengage any jetstone troops), thereby capturing the remaining resistance?


Jetstone units were still present: namely the king, but also some infantry. The infantry seems to have been croaked, but then Ace returned, so there's at least 2 commander units in the Spacerock garrison. Once they are croaked, captured, or have fled, the garrison should automatically fall to Gobwin Knob. I don't think any special action is required on their part for this to happen, but I'm not certain. All the remaining enemy units in the city will be auto-captured. Commanders seemingly may attempt escape unless actually restrained.


ftl wrote:Would her move have dropped to zero when she was taken prisoner?


Except she was leaving the garrison and was the last Haffaton unit to do so, which is what made her become prisoner in the first place. If that prevented her from leaving, it would cause a paradox essentially.

Haffaton was on it's turn when she left, I think they are still on their turn, that wouldn't have changed. But since she's a fugitive, she might get another turn before Faq gets to go too.

Erfworld movement rules are almost painfully obtuse. I'd offer my kingdom for a rulebook, but then I wouldn't need one... :P :D



Edit: Scratch that, they are actually painful to think about. I have a headache now.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby (name here) » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:33 pm

The way turns and battlespace work are kind of confusing. Apparently having your turn not start at dawn means another side with an earlier position on the master list of turn order will interact with you in some way during that day such that the turn order matters. I think casting doesn't count, or not starting the turn at dawn would be a common occurrence thanks to Charlie. It's apparently not a matter of proximity, since Jillian got worried when her turn didn't start at dawn while moving through Haffaton territory when she was leading her troops back to Faq. Also, it seems unlikely that turn order for a side is altered by who is interacting with another side, as GK moved at dawn until Charlescomm broke from the RCC. While GK might simply be very high on the priority list, the members of the RCC probably had a lot of interactions with other sides back home, plus Charlie snooping around in their battlespaces.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 064

Postby effataigus » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:43 pm

Beeskee wrote:"Sister Marie will let me know when I am meant to shoot." - We've seen this before, more or less, when Wanda was still with Goodminton. With a Predictamancer, they held off a side's entire incursion force, croaking more than half of them before they knew what was up, and bluffed the other side into leaving. Or maybe they weren't bluffing at all.. Predictamancers seem like incredibly useful units in combat. Though given what we saw of how Luckamancy works, I wonder if Predictamancy also 'steals' good results from other battles to make up the difference.

I walked away from this with the opposite moral. It would seem that predictamancer-guided missiles only allow fate to do whatever it wanted to do anyway. In theory, Wanda making the shot is just Wanda taking the easy way rather than making fate have Olive have a heart attack or something. Presumably, the latter would have a much larger numbers debt because the event is less probable... hence easy way.

This makes me wonder what has been predicted to happen that can only happen if Olive doesn't make it out of the hex... i.e. why are Wanda and Marie so confident that fate wants them to win? I can't see how any of the prophecies we know are incompatible with Olive escaping right now... so perhaps it is something we don't know.
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