Book 2 – Page 105

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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby effataigus » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:37 am

drachefly wrote:
effataigus wrote:
Ambug666 wrote:Are we posting predictions?
Heck yeah! The amateur predictamancy thread is for betting on small concise clearly defined statements. This is definitely a safe place for epileptic twees.
Oh, it's a very dangerous place to put epileptic twees...
Hmm, good point. Okay, it's an appropriate place to put them. You'll probably get ridiculed, but comes with the territory.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:32 am

Witchalok wrote:
This has got to be, in my opinion, the worst page in the history of the comic.
For a lot of reasons. From the entirely anti-climatic demise of Jack, to the overly used doll references in the Parson vs Molly fight (seriously, 2-3 should have been enough, but there are like 10 of them in the last 2 pages).
It seems as if the characters are making bad decision after bad decision just in order to advance the plot in the direction that Rob wants it to. It's just poor storytelling in my opinion.


I have to agree. That was my feeling after reading the strip as well. I think it was meant to be emotional, but it ended up feeling forced. Personally I have felt since the magic kingdom holdup, Parson's, Wanda's, Jacks, and Sylvia's actions have not been making sense. This has made the story feel forced.

But I have faith in Rob and his story tellling. For the most part he has been well above average in the depth of his characters. And everything in inner peace has made sense. I am sure that there are good reasons for the characters doing what they have been doing, we just don't know what they are yet. It could be like all the luckamancy that was going on with the Artemis scenes. That didn't make sense until we found out why. It could also be something just a bit wrong in the presentation. There is only so much information that can be portrayed in strip format. I really feel we need some text updates to let us know what these characters are thinking. Then the events will probably feel more natural. Cubbins actions would have made no sense at the end of part 2, if we just had the comic format. But the text update made the scene feel dramatic and emotionally moving.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Talisid » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:14 pm

Witchalok wrote:This has got to be, in my opinion, the worst page in the history of the comic.
For a lot of reasons. From the entirely anti-climatic demise of Jack, to the overly used doll references in the Parson vs Molly fight (seriously, 2-3 should have been enough, but there are like 10 of them in the last 2 pages).
It seems as if the characters are making bad decision after bad decision just in order to advance the plot in the direction that Rob wants it to. It's just poor storytelling in my opinion.


I'd have to agree. This is a very weak way to kill off a very interesting character, if he's really dead that is.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby mastigo » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:23 pm

I think something unusual is up. I'm not sure what, just that it is. There's too many oddities about what's going on:
1. Literally the page before Jack dies due to the dwagon being blind, he's shown helping Jillian see despite blindness. (Perhaps a luck repayment from what Fate did to help Jillian all the way back then?)
2. When he was out in the courtyard thinking up a plan, it didn't sound very much like his typical speech patterns.
3. Jack had no reason to be mounted on the dwagon
4. Jack NOTES that the dwagon is half blind before getting on it and selected it out of all the other dwagons in the courtyard.
5. I'm pretty sure Parson could have just ordered a dwagon from where he was standing
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby teratorn » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:36 pm

mastigo wrote:I think something unusual is up. I'm not sure what, just that it is. There's too many oddities about what's going on:
1. Literally the page before Jack dies due to the dwagon being blind, he's shown helping Jillian see despite blindness.


Jack is out of juice. Can't do it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby name lips » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:27 pm

There is evidence that makes this feel "off."

Jack coming through the portal when he had been ordered not to, while using an unexplained "trick" when he's out of juice.

And speaking of no juice... he's a Master-class Foolamancer. His value is unspeakable to GK or any side. Nobody would want him dead if there was any way to capture him. And without juice to use his magic, he's completely ineffective. It doesn't sound like Jack to conclude, "well, I'm about as good as a stabber with the Command special... LETS DO IT!" He knows his value. Why would he risk throwing away his life?

He should have been able to stack with and lead all of the dwagons without mounting a blind one.

He's a savvy individual. He's been studying tactics and strategy with Parson. I know he plays the Fool, but he's not foolish.

It's not the death itself that I necessarily mind -- it's that his death depends on a string of strange, out-of-character decisions. Storytelling-wise, these discrepancies need to be explained. Characters should not act against their nature without a good explanation. I know in real life people make bad, spur-of-the-moment decisions that have bad results, and are unable to properly explain themselves. But this is a story, and Rob is a good storyteller.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Kreistor » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:05 pm

name lips wrote:And speaking of no juice... he's a Master-class Foolamancer. His value is unspeakable to GK or any side. Nobody would want him dead if there was any way to capture him.


And that's why Stanley might switch Capital to Spacerock, if Parson asks. If Decryption retains Casting, then he will be a Zero Upkeep Master Class Foolamancer.

And they'll get a Zero Upkeep Dollamancer out of it, once Ace croaks.

Seriously, has no one noticed Stanley's eyes light up when Greed comes into the picture?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Slicer » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:40 pm

Can Stanley even switch capitals right now? It's not his turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Oberon » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:07 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Unless a new Side is formed, every GK unit in the hex is doomed to croak.
Since that isn't true, every assumption you made based on that false statement is...questionable...at best.

Or, as another man stated it, "Your intellect is dizzying!"

Swodaems wrote:Actually, Parson would still have to follow Stanley's orders. Parson's compulsion to follows the Tool's orders is different than a normal Erfworlder's. The spell used to summon Parson also forces him to obey Stanley.
You use a reference which has Parson being a unit of GK to extrapolate a conclusion which has Parson not being a unit if GK. Your conclusion is based on speculation, not fact. You don't have canon references which support your position, since the situation described is vastly different.

Further, you speculate that Parson, under the compulsion of the summoning scroll, will be able to break away from GK but will still have to remain loyal to Stanley. Neat trick, that. He can both act disloyally while he must remain loyal.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby name lips » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:08 am

We don't know under what conditions a unit can break away and form a new side, or what sorts of units might be able to accomplish this, though it's an interesting subject.

But in the spirit of RANDOM SPECULATION:

Perhaps only Heirs can form a new side
Perhaps you need permission from your Ruler -- they can "release" you or something
Perhaps if you have multiple Heirs, and the Ruler dies, each Heir forms a new side, and units choose which side to join based on which Heir they're most loyal to.
Perhaps you can form a new Side at will, but most units lack the free will to make such a declaration. Parson has, however, declared himself a Player. Maybe that counts for something?
Perhaps you can only form a new side from the Throne of a capital site which is not a current Side capital. (:D)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Swodaems » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:04 am

Oberon AKA. 'the O-face d blowup doll' wrote:
Swodaems wrote:Actually, Parson would still have to follow Stanley's orders. Parson's compulsion to follows the Tool's orders is different than a normal Erfworlder's. The spell used to summon Parson also forces him to obey Stanley.
You use a reference which has Parson being a unit of GK to extrapolate a conclusion which has Parson not being a unit if GK. Your conclusion is based on speculation, not fact.

Two things:
First. You are mistaken in your interpretation of my statement. You are claiming my references are directly supporting the "If Parson is loyal to Stanley, Parson will start his own side" claim. (I think "If Parson values self-preservation, he will start his own side" is more likely to come true.) All I was trying to do was debunk your "You realize that the Overlord of another side owes Stanley nothing at all, right?" response when the idea of Parson ruling his own side was presented. In retrospect, I probably should have cut more out of that quote of your's I supplied, (a quote which you have cut out of my quote), but I didn't see the need to at the time. To clear any confusion, I'll restate my claim as "If Parson becomes Ruler of his own side, he'll still have to obey Stanley." As evidence, I present the following quote: "Wanda Firebaugh: As I said, the summoning spell compels you to obey his orders."

Secondly, you're calling us out for SPECULATING? Speculation is one of the reasons for this board's existence. By merely partaking in a discussion about what will happen in the comic's future and opposing one guess, you are also speculating. Speculating is fun.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby auraseer » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:33 am

Swodaems wrote:To clear any confusion, I'll restate my claim as "If Parson becomes Ruler of his own side, he'll still have to obey Stanley." As evidence, I present the following quote: "Wanda Firebaugh: As I said, the summoning spell compels you to obey his orders."

That quote doesn't necessarily mean what you assume it means. Maybe the spell just forces Parson to obey his current Overlord, whomever that happens to be. Maybe it applies a bonus to the Obedience stats but leaves others unchanged. Maybe it magically makes him obey the Overlord of whomever cast the spell (which would be a weird loophole, but we've seen weirder).

We barely have any details about how the summoning spell works. You're assuming too much, and you're jumping to unwarranted conclusions.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby wih » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:06 am

Parson has disobeyed direct orders from Stanley, to his surprise (such as patrolling GK). Whether or not the spell was supposed to command obedience, it has been shown not to.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Pokota » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:07 am

name lips wrote:It's not the death itself that I necessarily mind -- it's that his death depends on a string of strange, out-of-character decisions. Storytelling-wise, these discrepancies need to be explained. Characters should not act against their nature without a good explanation. I know in real life people make bad, spur-of-the-moment decisions that have bad results, and are unable to properly explain themselves. But this is a story, and Rob is a good storyteller.


Here's your explanation: Jack has been panicking ever since he realized that the tower was not supposed to come down.
zyxophoj wrote:Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Kreistor » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:52 am

Swodaems wrote:
Oberon AKA. 'the O-face d blowup doll' wrote:
Swodaems wrote:Actually, Parson would still have to follow Stanley's orders. Parson's compulsion to follows the Tool's orders is different than a normal Erfworlder's. The spell used to summon Parson also forces him to obey Stanley.
You use a reference which has Parson being a unit of GK to extrapolate a conclusion which has Parson not being a unit if GK. Your conclusion is based on speculation, not fact.

Two things:
First. You are mistaken in your interpretation of my statement. You are claiming my references are directly supporting the "If Parson is loyal to Stanley, Parson will start his own side" claim. (I think "If Parson values self-preservation, he will start his own side" is more likely to come true.) All I was trying to do was debunk your "You realize that the Overlord of another side owes Stanley nothing at all, right?" response when the idea of Parson ruling his own side was presented. In retrospect, I probably should have cut more out of that quote of your's I supplied, (a quote which you have cut out of my quote), but I didn't see the need to at the time. To clear any confusion, I'll restate my claim as "If Parson becomes Ruler of his own side, he'll still have to obey Stanley." As evidence, I present the following quote: "Wanda Firebaugh: As I said, the summoning spell compels you to obey his orders."


I'm sorry, Swordaems, but that is a highly prejudicial view of the Spell. Maggie also indicated later that it may have swayed his thinking into making that option available. If so, then the Spell can also sway his thinking in order to make some options unavailable. As much as it may benefit Stanley, the option to break off a Side is a value judgement, which is probably too complex a judgement for the Spell to make. The fundamental nature of a split off Side is one that removes one major part of the Spell's compulsion, Stanley's capacity to disband Parson.

The Spell sways Parson, it does not force Parson to a particular way of thinking, and so makes him still as unreliable a neighbour as any other. Look at the ultimate example of the Spell's influence -- the Uncroaking of the volcano. Parson proposed that idea not knowing if he would survive it, and with only the faint hope he would go home via the portal. It was, for him, a suicide's path to someone else's victory. You suggest that Parson would go forward with the proposal "if he values self-preservation". We already know the spell forces him to choose Victory over personal survival, so that's a non-Starter.

You can't rely on the Spell having undue influence on Parson post-Split. The reference to being able to destroy him instantly may have been to Disbanding, not to a secondary effect of the Spell. That has been a long-standing question that Rob has chosen not to answer. We do not know exactly what was meant by that statement, since Disbanding qualifies for most of the effects attributed to the spell's capacity to destroy Parson. And we do not know that it wasn't a lie in order to scare Parson into submission. And we don't know that there isn't a caveat that requires Parson to still be on GK Side for it to work. Remember, the creators were the MK, and they might like the idea of Parson being free of Stanley completely eventually, so the destruction mechanism may disappear with Parson's Duty to GK.
_______________

At this point, I don't see a way within the current known rules (only speculative ones) for Parson to win over the next Turn, if Charlie chooses to curb stomp him at dawn tomorrow. The only out that I can see is that the Turn-ending spell only moved Gk in the Turn order, and they find themselves continuing. (Person doesn't even need Move, just Capital shifted to Spacerock.) The first sign of that would be Tremmenis choosing to end Turn, but noticing that the sun is still high in the sky, suggesting one more Side to Move. Tremmenis has no reason to continue Turn once he's out of move, since Spacerock will fight on at night, and I haven't seen a sunset, yet. (But we haven't until last Turn end anyway, so that's not really evidence of squat.) I've always resisted this idea, but I'm coming closer to accepting that it may be the only way. Unless Charlie chooses not to capture Spacerock. Charlie rationalizes, so he might find a quasi-acceptable reason not to.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Frosted » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:46 pm

I'm interested in knowing how many people registered for the forums as a result of this update. For that matter, I'm interested in seeing which updates returned the greatest leaps in forum joinage.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Oberon » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:11 pm

wih wrote:Parson has disobeyed direct orders from Stanley, to his surprise (such as patrolling GK). Whether or not the spell was supposed to command obedience, it has been shown not to.
He hasn't done so deliberately. He did it only out of ignorance. And Stanley immediately forces Parson to slap his own face to prove that Parson couldn't ignore Stanley's orders.

That's what the spell has shown, that Parson has to obey if he knows what Stanley wants. Stanley doesn't want Parson to form another side.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Oberon » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:35 pm

Tathar wrote:
Oberon wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:Especially with no one left to cast the scroll on him, Parson's Duty will force him to found a Side [...]
His Duty to Stanley will force him to break away from being Stanley's loyal unit? Wait, what? You realize that the Overlord of another side owes Stanley nothing at all, right?

That's like saying that a cop's duty to protect the contents of a bank will force him to rob it and hide the money under his mattress...

It sounds weird, but in this case, forming a new side would actually be to GK's benefit.
It sounds weird, but having a cop hide the contents of a bank vault under his mattress would actually be to the bank's benefit.

Jesus-H-Christ-on-a-crutch-coming-back-for-the-resurrection-and-whistling-a-tune-through-the-hole-in-his-palm

How is this hard?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby effataigus » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:12 pm

Not that I was a forumite back then, but supposedly there was a similar sentiment echoing around near the end of book 1. People were complaining that Parson was being thwarted by arbitrary turns of events (DDR scene, Charlie turning sides, the way the battle over the lake went down) and the blind incompetence of his inferiors/superiors (thinking Wanda's over-confidence in her spells and Stanley's kill-misty-cut-and-run scthick). In the end, all of that was made kinda awesome when Parson explained that the whole point of his game was to make it unwinnable with normal strategies... and that he as GM planned to cheat his players in exactly that fashion. I kinda cannot wait to see the big picture of book 2!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Pokota » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:21 pm

Oberon wrote:
Tathar wrote:
Oberon wrote:His Duty to Stanley will force him to break away from being Stanley's loyal unit? Wait, what? You realize that the Overlord of another side owes Stanley nothing at all, right?

That's like saying that a cop's duty to protect the contents of a bank will force him to rob it and hide the money under his mattress...

It sounds weird, but in this case, forming a new side would actually be to GK's benefit.
It sounds weird, but having a cop hide the contents of a bank vault under his mattress would actually be to the bank's benefit.

Jesus-H-Christ-on-a-crutch-coming-back-for-the-resurrection-and-whistling-a-tune-through-the-hole-in-his-palm

How is this hard?

Because people want Jack's death to mean something beyond giving Parson the dwagons he needs to win the battle and reminding him that he needs to be the mastermind that outwits Charlie in the end. Oh, and something about people liking Jack so much that they refuse to let him go the way of Black Belt from 8-Bit Theater.
zyxophoj wrote:Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.
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