Book 2 – Page 106

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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby bladestorm » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:34 pm

Finwe wrote:
bladestorm wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Moving GK capital to re-open the portal has been proposed since the first mention of Jetstone moving Capital and subsequent verification that each Portal connects to a Capital, only.

Since inferno can only be fought by Dirtamancer, it's the only answer from a Meta-thinking perspective.

Which means Parson is not going to use it. At the end of Book 1, he had two options: Surrender or die. He made option 3, which was how he had designed his original game. You cannot win within the rules of the game, so you have to come up with a way to cheat the system before it can cheat you.



Parson's only option now is 'die', according to Antium. The 'rules' seem to say that he can't get to Chekhov's gun. Narratively speaking, he's perfectly within his rights to fire the gun so long as he's force to acquire it through lateral thinking. There's no reason why some elements of his "Ctrl-z" plan can't have been foreshadowed.

I've put my quatloo on a bet that a capitol switch is NOT the option he's gonna use, no matter how much the forumites think it has been foreshadowed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:13 pm

I'm fascinated that lots of people complained that book 1's ending seemed like a deus ex machina because of lack of foreshadowing, but now it's a bad thing. =/
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Vreejack » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:37 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm fascinated that lots of people complained that book 1's ending seemed like a deus ex machina because of lack of foreshadowing, but now it's a bad thing. =/


It is a clear way to save himself. There are no obvious problems with attempting it, and if he doesn't he will die. I am not claiming he will succeed, but how much of a contrarian do you have to be to not pursue the only reasonable path to success? The drama will come in the complications.

In fact, we already know that there is one huge complication: a gaggle of carneymancers are waiting around in Portal Park to interfere with the show, and already have something planned for when people are "heading for the exits". This is why the first step of Parson's plan ought to be "make sure Rockwell and Wanda are still in the Magic Kingdom," because Parson has no idea what has happened since he left.

I am also assuming the Eyebook works at this distance... but Charlie accessed it so it seems to be okay.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:56 am

bladestorm wrote:I've put my quatloo on a bet that a capitol switch is NOT the option he's gonna use, no matter how much the forumites think it has been foreshadowed.


I agree. And I didn't read the fact Slately and Charlie worked to trap Parson in Spacerock with a capital switch as as foreshadowing Parson would escape with a capital switch of his own. It was more "this is something that can be done". Much like now that we've seen KingsWorld there is no certainty we'll ever see it again, being used by Parson to snatch victory from defeat. The scroll, or intervention from Charlie, or Parson thinking his way out of it seems a lot more likely to me.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Doctor Foreman » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:05 am

Parson's Klog 001:
There's a lot you can do, though. Even at night, when it's nobody's turn, you can spend money. So you can upgrade a city for example, as long as there's no enemy units in it.


If we assume there are no enemy units remaining in the battlespace, can we conclude that Parson is capable of upgrading the city (or downgrading it)? Could this offer any advantage?
"If you leave out important things or events that you know about, the story is strengthened. If you leave or skip something because you do not know it, the story will be worthless." - Hemingway
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Mogster2 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:07 am

tgriff02 wrote:
Oberon wrote:That's because his last name is Xanatos.

Thank you for that beautiful reference to one of the best cartoon ever written outside of Japan. :D

I thought linking to TVTropes was declared a bannable offense? :P

Anyway, the tower is down, so I'm not sure how much Wanda could add to the defense. Does Spacerock have a dungeon? Would it be possible to survive down there? Maybe they could squeeze in a few puffed-up purples to provide them with breathable air. (Or maybe I'm just too tired to be posting.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby multilis » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:48 am

If Wanda can get to city then sizemore and perhaps maggie can, sizemore already perhaps needed to put out the fire.

If sizemore then the tower can be rebuilt better than ever especially if linked up with Maggie, just as GK got rebuilt.

There are issues of timings and unknown rules, eg if Charlie's Archons are attacking, can Sizemore at same time rebuild tower and Wanda immediately use it? In Book 0, Wanda's original team upgraded a tower using a scroll to help win a battle.

Book 1 ended with Parson declaring himself a player rather than just a pawn, and he very much wanted to get to this new capital site, so starting his own side might still be an option.

...

Unknown whether Parson wasted a chance to level up on the duplicate king. (Duplicate may not count for XP, it disappeared leaving dragon unhappy when he tried to eat it)

...

I think it is hard to predict end of this because we really don't know the rules, what *is* possible, just like end of book 1.. was it possible to uncroak a volcano?

1) Can Parson start his own side and at what cost?

2) If Stanley moves his capital, can Parson move it back by sitting on the throne?

3) Is Stanley willing to move his capital?

4) Does pillaging/destroying the city and rebuilding it put out the fire? (If Yes, then why isn't that a known option to stop an inferno that would destroy the city anyways? Perhaps it takes powerful fireproof units like red dragons to destroy an inferno city)

5) What sort of magic tricks are possible, especially with link-ups?

6) What happens if Wanda tries to decrypt Jack?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Mogster2 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:02 pm

Hmm. Also, if Parson can't get Jack Decrypted or moved out of the hex before GK's next turn, Jack's body will disappear?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Menthalas » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:38 pm

I'm sure I missed this, but I haven't seen it myself...

Why can't Parson break off from Stanley? Ctrl+Z so much of the last book of making himself a passive standby, of the past of being a forced puppet, etc. Ruleswise, swearing shows that he's not totally bound by things like Erf rules anymore + I'm sure he could find personal justifications.
The point why it matters is that, if he did and all the units there were to convert to his side (possibly through communication with Wanda via Maggie or something?), then he could claim the capital as his own while starting his own side (with its own new capital), place the M.Kingdom portal, bring in his caster friends who could also break ranks (except Maggie, who has betrayed him recently, *besides* being part of the reason Misty died), put out the fire, and resurrect Jack in some fashion.

Stanley would still have a side, to be a later actor. Charlie would be even more annoyed. Tremennis would have more/better reason to have direct communication with him in the future, etc, etc. I guess it seems like, except for the uncrypted also in the town who *might* affect whether he could take the city, this is the time for him to start his own side.


This had to have already been said to some effect. Was there already a reason out there for why it won't work?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby peteratjet » Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:08 pm

erianaiel wrote:I can not see any situation where Stanley would be wiling to move his capital city to a burning ruin, just to rescue a warlord he does not particularly like. He just lost one caster he almost could remember the name of, and the other three are safe in the Magic Kingdom and can return home as soon as his turn starts.


He might want to get a decrypted Jack back though, along with the other decryptable units, and the city itself is worth something. The klog entry that laid out the pros and cons of allowing an inferno to consume a city and every unit in it noted that there was a considerable cost to the treasury in re-founding the city from scratch.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Aquillion » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:07 pm

Also, we know that Stanley hates Charlie with a passion, so he might agree with Parson that "Charlie doesn't get to win", and be willing to do it just to poke a stick in Charlie's eye.

(I still think that it feels like the books have been foreshadowing an attack on Stanley -- I continue to find it suspicious that every other plot-important character has been carefully moved out of Gobwin Knob. And we've been told explicitly that Gobwin Knob has no Archons defending it from veiled units, and the previous king of Gobwin Knob died to a sudden insurrection from the Gobwins, who have now mysteriously vanished...)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby teratorn » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:36 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm fascinated that lots of people complained that book 1's ending seemed like a deus ex machina because of lack of foreshadowing, but now it's a bad thing. =/


Lack of foreshadowing? A bid dead volcano just siting there? In hindsight we should all have seen it coming, and in fact there were suggestions in the forum, at the beginning of the story, that it would end up just like that (uncroaking the volcano).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Vreejack » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:11 pm

The really hard part is gonna be getting Stanley to move the capital. So of course Parson will make him think it's his own idea. Get Maggie and Rockwell in there to splash some really fine digs for the Uberlord. Really impressive crib to overawe the neighbors and fill Tramennis with well-deserved resentment. Are you coming straight here, Tool? Or are you gong to try to capture Jillian on the way?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Kreistor » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:39 am

bladestorm wrote:
Finwe wrote:
bladestorm wrote:Which means Parson is not going to use it. At the end of Book 1, he had two options: Surrender or die. He made option 3, which was how he had designed his original game. You cannot win within the rules of the game, so you have to come up with a way to cheat the system before it can cheat you.



Parson's only option now is 'die', according to Antium. The 'rules' seem to say that he can't get to Chekhov's gun. Narratively speaking, he's perfectly within his rights to fire the gun so long as he's force to acquire it through lateral thinking. There's no reason why some elements of his "Ctrl-z" plan can't have been foreshadowed.

I've put my quatloo on a bet that a capitol switch is NOT the option he's gonna use, no matter how much the forumites think it has been foreshadowed.


Sorry, the idea of the volcano exploding to end Book 1 was presented by forumites the moment they learned GK was on top of a volcano. The earliest Meta-thinking on that was ultimately verified. There were even early proposals that it would require a Link, though I don't think anyone specifically predicted Wanda+Sizemore. But even without the volcano prediction, some form of trimancer Link was always in contention for the finale. And, frankly, it wasn't "cheating". Parson's didn't break any rules ordering the link, only acted unexpectedly in a direction of self-sacrifice (dying to win, if the portal Disbanded him).

Meta-thinking is a valid prediction mechanism in the case of Erfworld.

Oh, and BTW, it's "Capital", not "Capitol." "Capitol" is the name of a specific (and poorly named) building in Washington DC, while "Capital" is the city containing the government of a region. I didn't mention it before, but you've been running with that for a long time now.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby bladestorm » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:24 pm

Kreistor wrote:Sorry, the idea of the volcano exploding to end Book 1 was presented by forumites the moment they learned GK was on top of a volcano. The earliest Meta-thinking on that was ultimately verified. There were even early proposals that it would require a Link, though I don't think anyone specifically predicted Wanda+Sizemore. But even without the volcano prediction, some form of trimancer Link was always in contention for the finale. And, frankly, it wasn't "cheating". Parson's didn't break any rules ordering the link, only acted unexpectedly in a direction of self-sacrifice (dying to win, if the portal Disbanded him).

Meta-thinking is a valid prediction mechanism in the case of Erfworld.

Oh, and BTW, it's "Capital", not "Capitol." "Capitol" is the name of a specific (and poorly named) building in Washington DC, while "Capital" is the city containing the government of a region. I didn't mention it before, but you've been running with that for a long time now.

I like Capitol better. Plus, it bothers you enough to try to correct it, so even more reason to continue using it. My bet still stands, so if you are so sure of your metathinking, accept it. A similar bet was also proposed by drachefly.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Kreistor » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:12 pm

bladestorm wrote:so if you are so sure of your metathinking, accept it. A similar bet was also proposed by drachefly.


Bladestorm, you declared meta-thinking invalid. I was simply pointing out your example was inaccurate.

As for betting, it's a mugs game. You're not offering any odds. I get one possible result ("capital switch") while you get everything else. Stupid bet, even at 4:1. Rob has hit us so many times with last minute rules clarifications, it's simply dumb to think we know everything. Given current rules, yes, high probability of a capital switch. Next comic could give us different rules, and give us a dozen other possible solutions. I just ain't that dumb, given Rob's historical methods.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby ftl » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:06 pm

bladestorm wrote:I like Capitol better. Plus, it bothers you enough to try to correct it, so even more reason to continue using it.


Really, blade? You're going to continue using an incorrect word specifically to piss someone off? Man, there's one rule on the forums, don't be a jerk, and doing stuff to deliberately bother someone (even someone you don't like) is definitely breaking it...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby fehler » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:22 pm

Right now, I can't think of an action to get him out of here that isn't an "it was all a dream" thinkamancer-foolamancer-predictamancer link-up, and having parson end up "undoing" himself back to the other side of the portal. And that would be a let down.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby bladestorm » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:43 pm

Kreistor wrote:Bladestorm, you declared meta-thinking invalid. I was simply pointing out your example was inaccurate.

As for betting, it's a mugs game. You're not offering any odds. I get one possible result ("capital switch") while you get everything else. Stupid bet, even at 4:1. Rob has hit us so many times with last minute rules clarifications, it's simply dumb to think we know everything. Given current rules, yes, high probability of a capital switch. Next comic could give us different rules, and give us a dozen other possible solutions. I just ain't that dumb, given Rob's historical methods.

I declared the statements along the lines of "only one option", "his only option", "only one thing left to do", or "he has to do this" invalid. There's plenty of other meta-thinking that could be possible, including altering Turn order via Kingworld (someone mentioned the possibility that the letters may still be in Spacerock), rules that force the crossing of a hex barrier off turn, a trimancer link at range (Maggie/Wanda/Sizemore from the MK to put out the inferno and decrypt at a distance, with Sizemore getting a taste for what it's like to attune(which in turn follows other meta-thinking about attuned trilinking, distanced spellcasting, and Sizemore attuning)), Parson reclaiming his ruthlessness, using the remaining Pinks to put out the Inferno, the decrypted turning back to their previous sides (and all of those sad faces can be happy again), Parson renegotiating the terms of his surrender to Jetstone (crtl-z the whole violation of Parley and turning the battle into a food fight) or Crtl-Z undoing the summon spell that brought Parson to Erfworld (via the scroll, which has been pointed out several times). He has plenty of options, not just changing capitols, no matter how vehemently some forumites argue that he has to do (or even digging into HOW he would be able to do it).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby drachefly » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:55 pm

Kriestor, if you want to lay it out at, say, 5:1, depending on the wording, I might take the long end of that. Some sort of capital switching gimmickery is not THAT unlikely.
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