Book 2 – Page 107

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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Swodaems » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:19 am

It is about damned time somebody gave Parson a honest critique about his battlefield performance. He has been making a mess of it for a while now and deserves the calling out.
___________

Ivan Tsarevitch wrote:A Chief Warlord can issue orders to the Overlord of the side if the stakes are high enough.

We've seen a ruler who was given an order by his CW disobey that order based on their own discretion.
LIAB text 48 wrote:The minutes were precious now, Slately knew. He was disobeying...what a thought disobeying... his Chief Warlord's command. How many times in his life had he had to obey anyone? It did not seem like something he could expect himself to be particularly good at.
___________

If Stanley didn't hang up, the call could have been intentionally broken off by Maggie for reasons other than juice shortage. She could be running back down the tunnel in order to hit Stanley with another mind control spell.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby effataigus » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:25 am

I'm glad Parson tried to switch capitals, and I'm glad Stanley acted in character by balking, at least at first. The red velvet thing sounded like a different character though (please don't start speculating about Jojo impersonating Stanley).

I'm guessing this isn't just Charlie gloating. I'm thinking the two of them are about to have a frank conversation that wouldn't make sense without Charlie admitting how much he knows and is responsible for.

Also, upper right of the last panel... looks like Charlie's message got to Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Jinren » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:50 am

Doctor Foreman wrote:If Parson could have started his own side so easily, I suspect he'd have gone ahead and done it


It's entirely possible that he doesn't know how.

For that matter we still don't know how complicated the process is or what is required.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Sonic Screwdriver » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:19 am

Swodaems wrote:It is about damned time somebody gave Parson a honest critique about his battlefield performance. He has been making a mess of it for a while now and deserves the calling out.
Were it not for the food fight, the scene would've been "two casters, including the Arkenpliers, and the entire army in the field, with little damage to the enemy." After the food fight, he didn't really do much except throw himself in danger and kill Jack for no benefit, but I doubt that's the criticism Stanley's throwing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:31 am

So, again.
Charlie's plan involved trapping Parson in Spacerock by changing the capitol, thus shutting down the portal.
This is in spite of the fact that the portal would have closed once Parson tool control of the garrison anyway, leaving him cut off from any other support from Gobwin Knob.
The plan apparently required Charlie to know that an inferno fire was going to break out and wanted to be able to shut the portal before Parson could retreat or take control. I'm just going to chalk that up to very specific off panel Predictamancy until further information is provided.

The whole scenario resembles a 'railroad campaign' where no matter what choices you make, the DM keeps blocking you/limiting your choices until you make the one they want you to. Which is kind of the same problem Parson faced the first time. Only this time its Charlie, not Erfworld itself, calling the shots. Once again, Charlie is cocky and things that there is no way for Parson to win and reveals himself as the real threat. Book 3 is definitely going to be Parson vs Charlie. I predict that Parson is going to learn all of the nuances about Thinkamancy that Text update 38 alluded to and break that mechanism as well. I also predict that Parson is going to spread the word about Charlie's ability to hack thinkagrams which will not only hurt Charlie's bottom line but cast every thinkamancer's value and perhaps loyalty into doubt.

It will be interesting to see the prophecies/predictions surrounding Parson. Perhaps one of them will be that Charlie will be defeated by someone from another world. Depending on the wording Charlie may have thought that his deposing by Judy Gale was that being fulfilled - much like Banhammer and the rest of FAQ believe that Wanda leading Haffaton units to defeat FAQ was the fullfillment of THAT prophecy as well.

Perhaps Charlie is now trying to take a hand in manipulating the predictions in his favor but we will soon find out that, like City Hall, Fate cannot be fought. I also predict that Parson will do something to break Predictamancy as well but time will tell.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Doctor Foreman » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:42 am

Jinren wrote:
Doctor Foreman wrote:If Parson could have started his own side so easily, I suspect he'd have gone ahead and done it


It's entirely possible that he doesn't know how.

For that matter we still don't know how complicated the process is or what is required.


In Erfworld these sorts of processes seem not to be very complicated. Given that Parson was able to promote himself to a field unit by simply commanding it, he could probably establish a side in the same way. You'd think he'd at least try it.

Swodaems wrote:It is about damned time somebody gave Parson a honest critique about his battlefield performance. He has been making a mess of it for a while now and deserves the calling out.

What Stanley said isn't really a critique. He's just listing the things that went wrong. No comments about Parson's methodology, just the apparent results. On his end of things, it's about as justified as the time he got angry about Parson ordering troop disengagements in the siege gambit of Book 1.
"If you leave out important things or events that you know about, the story is strengthened. If you leave or skip something because you do not know it, the story will be worthless." - Hemingway
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:45 am

Jinren wrote:
Doctor Foreman wrote:If Parson could have started his own side so easily, I suspect he'd have gone ahead and done it


It's entirely possible that he doesn't know how.

For that matter we still don't know how complicated the process is or what is required.

Also, Charlie, as far as we know, hasn't tried to put up a barrier for that happening. I doubt he will allow such a loophole to be present. Given what we know I would assume the mechanics depend on what type of city you conquer (e.g. a barbarian city, a capitol site) and what permissions/resources you have from your own side. Assuming Parson is able to pull that off, that would cause some loyalty issues with Wanda and Maggie. Wanda wants to bring all of the Arkentools together and having Parson split off seems counterproductive to that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby magnutc » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:11 pm

Carnymancy and the Arkenshoes are completely different sets of magic. There is no reason for them to play by the same rules. Why would it have to be confined to sending Parson to wherever it is he considers home? It probably just dispells the summoning spell.


Step back from the game rules construct that the forums tend to focus on and look instead at writing convention. The Inner Peace story isn't just a sideshow meant to keep us quiet while we wait for new pages; it's an exploratory device told in tandem. It tells us more stuff about the world, about the rules, and often it's at least marginally relevant to what's happening on the main page. Not lockstep, exactly, but it's not out in left field, either.

When Rob uses Judy Gale to show us that "home" is a subjective concept, that it doesn't always mean the place you were popped (out of thin air, or out of your mom's junk), it's not at all unfair to assume that he's laying out a story-significant concept.

In this case, home being where your heart/hat is. So while I don't like trying to stay a step ahead of Rob, I don't think it's unreasonable to see a connection that gives the scroll room to "backfire" on Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:46 pm

and who better to undo the summoning spell than Charlie who apparently oversaw the original summoning spell that brought Judy Gale.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby cheeseaholic » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:07 pm

Charlie made a mistake here. Even under current circumstances Parson won't use the scroll now that Charlies obviously trying to get him to use it. Unless that was the idea and the scroll actually is a move from place to place scroll and Charlie's trying to make him not use it. Either way, Charlie has been starting to crack under the pressure, which is something that I've been keeping in mind.

Switching capitals idea is out. Or at least Parson is out of that decision. Too bad the call was cut out before Parson could point out that they could have a decrypted caster if they moved the capitol. What else is on the table then? Starting a new side, fire break, forcing themselves captured and moving out quickly. If Maggie's out they can't contact Hagar anymore to try to pay them for a quick side change. I suppose if they find the bat they could try with Don, but that seems highly unlikely. Cast the scroll of course, on Parson or on the fire. Parson would have to cast that himself though, which seems unlikely. Try to rig up a way to get Parson airborne with multiple dwagons or coast over the fire once it's past the middle area? Only thing from left field that I can think of is Trem interfering somehow after interrogating the archon for and wanting Parson's capture. Which seems...unlikely.

Oh I forgot about razing/rebuilding the city. You know, it would be funny if Stanley thought of that and did it while Parson was too stressed out/running for his life to do so.
Maggie: Change the capital so that Parson can get out!
Stanley: Nah, I'll just raze it instead. Not like I like the units it can make now anyway.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby woort » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:34 pm

Jinren wrote:
Doctor Foreman wrote:If Parson could have started his own side so easily, I suspect he'd have gone ahead and done it


It's entirely possible that he doesn't know how.

For that matter we still don't know how complicated the process is or what is required.

This. It's not exactly the type of thing that would be easy for Parson to figure out. "hey uh... Hypothetically... If I was to leave GK and start my own side... How would I do that?". Stanley would disband him instantly for asking something like that.

There may also be Duty magic preventing Parson from thinking clearly about things like that. It's kind of conspicuous that he's never given any serious consideration to the idea, given how much he hates Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby drachefly » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:15 pm

magnutc wrote:When Rob uses Judy Gale to show us that "home" is a subjective concept, that it doesn't always mean the place you were popped (out of thin air, or out of your mom's junk)


Man, it's a good thing THAT doesn't get taken literally. Very awkward.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Crarites » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:21 pm

Anyone know what the whistle on the hammer does?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby ManaCaster » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:49 pm

Doctor Foreman wrote:If Parson could have started his own side so easily, I suspect he'd have gone ahead and done it rather than waste Maggie's juice, waste time and energy in the lengthy argument necessary to convince the Tool to change the capital (consider the fragile state of Stanley's self-esteem at the moment) or risk Charlie's interference in trying to contact the Tool. Not to mention the immediate advantages to having a two-way path between GK and Spacerock.

Don't forget, starting a new side goes beyond duty, it requires a special amount of initiative. Parson has to be willing to place a degree of separation between himself and Gobwin Knob and taking charge of his own resources. He might not feel like going that far unless pressed.

Crarites wrote:Anyone know what the whistle on the hammer does?

Nope.

You know, if I were Charlie, I'd not only jam the Eyebooks, I'd send fake messages.

Charlie!Parson (to Stanley): Hey Tool, never mind, it's too dangerous. I came up with a better plan anyways.
Charlie!Stanley (to Parson): Fine. I'll do it. Wait by portal for Sizemore or whatever.

In the best case scenario, Parson goes down with Spacerock waiting on a plan that isn't going to happen. In the worst case scenario, Gobwin Knob loses more resources.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Unclever title » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:08 pm

Welp, thinkagrams and eyebooks are out.

Guess it's time to break out Jetstone's magic hats.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby CarniDollMancer » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:34 pm

Ok, just read the update and have not had a chance to get through 70-odd replies yet, but I wanted to put out my gut thought. I keep hearing people talk about Parson spinning off a side, and I have come to believe that he cannot do so.

Clarification: He is able to do so via the rules, at least that is what I gleaned from the last IPTSF. The account of a new city spinning off from a warlord seems to be leading in the direction of Parson getting a side as well.

I know, I have not helped my case yet... but here it comes:

Problem A: Parson has no shmuckers. He has no individual purse that we have heard of, and there has been no hint that he has a gem hidden on him anywhere which he could trade in. Jillian mentions her purse a couple of times earlier, and specifies that it is separate from the side's (meaning that she cannot just dip into it at her discretion, even as chief). Some things she must pay for herself, out of her pocket, and when she went barbarian, the only money she kept was her purse.

However, I do not remember hearing that it cost a lot to start a side. Stanley devotes himself to it when he goes for Faq's old capital site, and Don only mentions giving Jillian money to grow her side, not to start it. (I may be wrong on either of these points pretty easily. I just reread the whole series and got to the brand new stuff, but I have not looked back since reading this one to update my facts. If I am incorrect about evidence, let me know.) So it is possible that Parson is going to start a side to get out, but not be able to maintain it himself.

Problem B: Even if Parson starts a new side, what is the motivation for Sizemore to turn? Sizemore is not particularly fond of Parson, and he seems to be loyal to Stanley of his own free will so far. If it is not his own free will, we have at least seen no evidence of a spell or a compulsion like Wanda's fate. I believe that Sizemore was probably popped at Gobwin Knob and is naturally motivated to serve that side, just like Wanda wanted to serve Goodminton, and Jillian was naturally inclined to serve Faq even though she did not like most of it's people. Parson's turning would be a betrayal of Sizemore.

Problem C: If Parson had anyone turn to his side, it would likely be Marie and Janis, which would then provide Sizemore with a reason to save the city. However, if this happened they would be a three unit side with only whatever money the two casters (or one, because I am not sold that Janis would turn unless she actually is Olive. A side located in a known city with three units and a lot of armies around that could invade is barely a side at all. It would be fun to find out what Parson would do if that was what he had to work with, but I feel like Rob has something less predictable in mind.

Problem D: Charlie is a Carnymancer with the Arkendish... What if Charlie has been getting in people's heads and making it so that none of the predictions that Delphie or Marie made has been correct? Obviously he is the one who taught Olive how to pervert her magic to make weapons. A Carnymancer would probably know how to do that sort of trick. This one is more a wild guess off the cuff, but there is a good chance that Charlie has been running everything, or at least messing with it and letting it go crazy. This would give him access to a lot more business, and the 'Dish seems powerful enough to let Charlie play with other Mancers.

Edited: I wanted to add this question. When is Charlie going to use his remaining Mathamancy calculations from Parson. I suspect that one is coming quite soon.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Iranon » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:45 pm

If we take the "We've got, like, two minutes" literally (Erf time is weird)... can Charlie just paralyse him by calling in his battle evaluations?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby woort » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:55 pm

Problem B: Even if Parson starts a new side, what is the motivation for Sizemore to turn? Sizemore is not particularly fond of Parson, and he seems to be loyal to Stanley of his own free will so far. If it is not his own free will, we have at least seen no evidence of a spell or a compulsion like Wanda's fate. I believe that Sizemore was probably popped at Gobwin Knob and is naturally motivated to serve that side, just like Wanda wanted to serve Goodminton, and Jillian was naturally inclined to serve Faq even though she did not like most of it's people. Parson's turning would be a betrayal of Sizemore.


I don't think that's true. For a long time Stanley was really mean to Sizemore, and Sizemore seemed to really enjoy talking about magic with parson. He was upset by the volcano trick, but he seemed to forgive parson for it after talking to Janis. I think there's a lot of foreshadowing that Sizemore is going to leave GK and turn to Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby ManaCaster » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:11 pm

CarniDollMancer wrote:Problem A: Parson has no shmuckers. He has no individual purse that we have heard of, and there has been no hint that he has a gem hidden on him anywhere which he could trade in. Jillian mentions her purse a couple of times earlier, and specifies that it is separate from the side's (meaning that she cannot just dip into it at her discretion, even as chief). Some things she must pay for herself, out of her pocket, and when she went barbarian, the only money she kept was her purse.

However, I do not remember hearing that it cost a lot to start a side. Stanley devotes himself to it when he goes for Faq's old capital site, and Don only mentions giving Jillian money to grow her side, not to start it. (I may be wrong on either of these points pretty easily. I just reread the whole series and got to the brand new stuff, but I have not looked back since reading this one to update my facts. If I am incorrect about evidence, let me know.) So it is possible that Parson is going to start a side to get out, but not be able to maintain it himself.

The city itself will generate schmuckers. Sure, he'd need external funding to restore any lost levels with any sort of speed, but it won't stop him from actually creating a side.

CarniDollMancer wrote:Problem B: Even if Parson starts a new side, what is the motivation for Sizemore to turn? Sizemore is not particularly fond of Parson, and he seems to be loyal to Stanley of his own free will so far. If it is not his own free will, we have at least seen no evidence of a spell or a compulsion like Wanda's fate. I believe that Sizemore was probably popped at Gobwin Knob and is naturally motivated to serve that side, just like Wanda wanted to serve Goodminton, and Jillian was naturally inclined to serve Faq even though she did not like most of it's people. Parson's turning would be a betrayal of Sizemore.

He is fond of Parson, he just doesn't like how Parson makes him do things he doesn't like. As to turning, why would he need to turn? One of the best aspects of splitting of the side is that they can pool their casters, thereby getting around the caster limit.

Heck, it might even be best if a new Spacerock side just has any casters it pops turn over to Gobwin Knob, but share usage. We don't know for sure how the caster limit works, but if it is based on how many casters you have right now, this would be an excellent way to keep producing more.

CarniDollMancer wrote:Problem D: Charlie is a Carnymancer with the Arkendish... What if Charlie has been getting in people's heads and making it so that none of the predictions that Delphie or Marie made has been correct? Obviously he is the one who taught Olive how to pervert her magic to make weapons. A Carnymancer would probably know how to do that sort of trick. This one is more a wild guess off the cuff, but there is a good chance that Charlie has been running everything, or at least messing with it and letting it go crazy. This would give him access to a lot more business, and the 'Dish seems powerful enough to let Charlie play with other Mancers.

I've kind of been wondering whether Charlie has the capacity to mess with minds too. But the Thinkamancers should be aware of what Charlie is and isn't capable of. Anyways, what does this have to do with being unable to split off the side?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Ditto » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:19 pm

In re: Spinning off your own side. A simple complication might be 'must be an Heir unit'. Heir units are set up to rule sides - just assumed that it'll be your own side someday. It makes sense they would be the people to pounce on Capital sites and grow their own sides. We do not know whether Doothis was an heir or not, but it might make sense to spin off if he was 'across the sea', far removed from his parent side. The only person to threaten this in the comic was Ossomer (in re Haggar), and Ossomer was the heir at the time.

It may or may not require schmuckers to do this, but you certainly require schmuckers to sustain your new side.
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