Book 2 – Page 107

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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Lipkin » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:35 am

Kreistor wrote:Parson splitting a new Side does not solve the problem.

Sizemore must enter Jetstone. If Parson splits Side, with no comms, he cannot ally with Stanley. No Alliance = Sizemore breaking MK Conventions to enter Jetstone. He would be invading a non-allied Side via Portal.

Not going to happen, or he'd have gone with Parson the first time.

Further, Stanley just indicated that he doesn't want to move Capital. You think he's going to trust Parson after starting a new Side (without orders) with his Dirtamancer? Splitting a new Side is the most traitorous thing Parson could do. No comms = traitor = no Alliance = no Sizemore = inferno burns anyway.

Never going to happen!

If comms are restored, and Stanley says, "No Capital move," then he is certainly going to say, "Sizemore won't go to Jetstone if Parson splits the Side." If he doesn't trust Parson enough now for the move, he will certainly not trust him after Side Split, since Parson will (by Stanley's belief) change mentally when he becomes Ruler.

Wait... isn't there a river nearby? Denouement Bridge? Is that accessible? Is it inside the City Hex? Hercules did it to a horse stable that needed cleaning...

I think one of the most important questions is whether the "rules" in question are actually rules of Erf, or conventions that the units of Erf follow. We know that units can follow their own instincts, in absence of orders. Jack, Sylvia, and Wanda all proved that. Parson was able to violate the neutrality of the MK, and we don't really have reason to believe he was special in that regard, beyond not giving a crap. If Parson were to split to his own side, and were to poke his head through the newly reopened portal and shout for Sizemore's help, Sizemore wouldn't be able to check with Stanley for orders, nor would he want to. It would still be in his side's best interests to save the city, to save their remaining forces.

There would be a big difference in Sizemore going through the portal this time, as opposed to going with Parson from the start, and that difference is that this time Sizemore would be invited. We've seen from the prologue comic that forces from unaligned sides can meet in a city without formal alliance. So Sizemore would not be invading, because Parson asked him to come. If Sizemore is just as cutoff from Stanley as Parson is, he will have to follow his own instinct, or Wanda, his chief caster, can still order him through the portal. After Sizemore saves the city, Parson can enter the portal to MK, and Gobwin Knob can recapture Jetstone. Or alternatively, Sizemore simply turns to Parson's side. Parson has been working to show that he isn't simply a killer. He would be actively trying to save lives. If Sizemore could save a multitude of lives by turning, with a little prodding from Janis, I think he would. Plus, I'm remembering that Sizemore is a "rockstar" of the magic kingdom, and is quite wealthy from all his work there. With Sizemore on his side, Parson would have a good foundation for a new side.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby drachefly » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:12 am

He can't ally with Stanley, but he certainly can make it clear to the MK that Sizemore was invited.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Kreistor » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:35 am

drachefly wrote:He can't ally with Stanley, but he certainly can make it clear to the MK that Sizemore was invited.


Without a factual alliance, un-lead units will auto-attack Sizemore anyway. Bad plan. Suicidal, even. And it ignores that going in against Stanley's desires risks immediate Disbanding from a guy that can't even say Sizemore's name. He'd do it just to prove he could.

Another problem:
No treasury without Stanley (since it moved with Trem). Can't rebuild the city, so Jetstone is an undefendable Lvl 0-2, depending when the fire stops. Parson is just as vulnerable. He needs more than casters: he needs Schmuckers. Can't happen without Stanley's help.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby LordAcme » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:33 am

LordAcme wrote:Just a thought, it's entirely possible that regardless of Erfworld rules, Parson may not be able to split and form a new side. Allow me to quote:

"Warlord, if you refuse an order, the spell which summoned you will end your existence entirely. You must serve your Lord's will and desires. Forever."

Parson isn't a normal unit, and that grants him unexpected abilities, but I think there may be a limitation or two that comes with that.


... perhaps I wasn't clear enough here.

Let me be more so. Parson is under a spell. A spell that Erfworld units are not normally under. This places limitations on him that other Erfworld units do not share.

Assuming the second and third sentences Wanda spoke wasn't just hyperbole (which is actually possible given how she speaks), this spell will kill him for disloyalty to Stanley.

I put forth that because of the spell, Parson cannot start his own side. Parson must win this battle as as Stanley's warlord or die trying.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Doctor Foreman » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:56 am

LordAcme wrote:Assuming the second and third sentences Wanda spoke wasn't just hyperbole (which is actually possible given how she speaks), this spell will kill him for disloyalty to Stanley.

I put forth that because of the spell, Parson cannot start his own side. Parson must win this battle as as Stanley's warlord or die trying.


I put it to you that units can belong to a side without being particularly loyal to them. Wanda is outright accused of having no loyalty to Stanley, and her response (that she is loyal to Fate magic) makes this a conceivable possibility. Note also that she was capable of selling out her own side for this alleged loyalty.

Parson may be bound to obey Stanley's orders by the terms of the summoning spell, but he may still be able to start or belong to another side. We have seen from Wanda's example that loyalty can transcend side boundaries.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Whispri » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:07 pm

It should also be noted that Parson's from another World, if the spell tries to disband him it's entiely possible that nothing would happen.

Cubbins wrote:(Not speaking as the actual Cubbins, here)

Is it possible for Parson to hide away in one of the red dwagon corpses and wait the Inferno out? I forget if they're immune to fire or not. I guess it would be sort of like Luke Skywalker surviving the frigid wastes of Hoth by sleeping inside a tauntaun.

Moot point, they were all Decrypted.

teratorn wrote:
Whispri wrote:What of it? Bea had no heir.

The point under discussion is if units without some sort of funding survive until they need upkeep or if they disappear immediately. All we have seen up to now points to them disappearing immediately. I see no evidence Parson can break from GK without vanishing before he can even claim the city, but Antium probably can since uncroaked apparently do not need to be linked to a paying queue.

Parson can probably order them to break with GK, and start their own side by surrendering the city to them. Then it's in that side's best interest to ally with GK and get Sizemore in.

And again: So what? A Side without a Ruler is destroyed. That has no relevance to whatever Rules rule(s) dictate the number of Units that survive with a Ruler who loses her Capital.

Kreistor wrote:Parson splitting a new Side does not solve the problem.

Sizemore must enter Jetstone. If Parson splits Side, with no comms, he cannot ally with Stanley. No Alliance = Sizemore breaking MK Conventions to enter Jetstone. He would be invading a non-allied Side via Portal.

Not going to happen, or he'd have gone with Parson the first time.

Further, Stanley just indicated that he doesn't want to move Capital. You think he's going to trust Parson after starting a new Side (without orders) with his Dirtamancer? Splitting a new Side is the most traitorous thing Parson could do. No comms = traitor = no Alliance = no Sizemore = inferno burns anyway.

Never going to happen!

If comms are restored, and Stanley says, "No Capital move," then he is certainly going to say, "Sizemore won't go to Jetstone if Parson splits the Side." If he doesn't trust Parson enough now for the move, he will certainly not trust him after Side Split, since Parson will (by Stanley's belief) change mentally when he becomes Ruler.

Wait... isn't there a river nearby? Denouement Bridge? Is that accessible? Is it inside the City Hex? Hercules did it to a horse stable that needed cleaning...

As I recall, Tremannis formed an alliance with an enemy Side on his first trip into the field... and even if Parson joined any new Side formed, automagic contracts occured in Book Zero. I wouldn't be shocked if Stanley broke any alliance formed, but still, a few moments could be enough. And it would be Parson deciding the terms of the alliance, would Stanley break an alliance if doing so forfeited him, for example, his entire treasury with some zeros tacked on at the end?

I don't see Parson founding a Side with himself as Ruler, I see no reason to believe that he could, but Wanda... he knows she was aware of Ossomer turning despite being in another hex, if he puts two and two together... And, Wanda can cast Dirtamancy, if he gets Wanda into the hex, that could well be enough.

There is a river close by (no telling exactly how far), trouble is, it's outside the hex and thus out of range. There could be an underground river underneath Spacerock for all we know, but even if so, there'd be no way to reach it without magical assistance.

Kreistor wrote:Without a factual alliance, un-lead units will auto-attack Sizemore anyway. Bad plan. Suicidal, even. And it ignores that going in against Stanley's desires risks immediate Disbanding from a guy that can't even say Sizemore's name. He'd do it just to prove he could.

Another problem:
No treasury without Stanley (since it moved with Trem). Can't rebuild the city, so Jetstone is an undefendable Lvl 0-2, depending when the fire stops. Parson is just as vulnerable. He needs more than casters: he needs Schmuckers. Can't happen without Stanley's help.

What unled Units? They've got two stabbers and a handful of Dwagons, hardly an effort to control. Disbanding his own Casters? It's possible he isn't bluffing. But he's already lost one Caster, if Wanda was part of a new Side, he'd be down to two.

As far as the treasury is concerned, Parson's still Chief Warlord, he can still give orders, there's nothing to stop him pocketing the crown jewels on his way out of the door if it comes to it. Also, Wanda could have a full purse and any number of gems. That price tag she put on the Perfect Warlord Spell could easily have been inflated somewhat.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby teratorn » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:15 pm

Whispri wrote:And again: So what? A Side without a Ruler is destroyed.


And again your point is moot and simply not true, if the units are inside one of their cities they keep on living. Why do units outside simply vanish?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Glome » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:24 pm

Whispri wrote:Moot point, they were all Decrypted.


The dwagons carrying Hobgobwins weren't all decrypted, they fell because their riders were promoted to heavies.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:03 pm

Brucester wrote:
hajo wrote:So, plan A (switching capitals, then bringing in Sizemore to put out the inferno) didn't get approved by Stanley...

How about plan B: just raze the city. No city --> nothing to burn --> no fire.
Rebuilding can be done later 8-)
Maybe they can even get some schmuckers out of it...


I second this one - the straightforward answer is to raze the city. Splitting off and creating a separate side sounds plausible as well, but I 'hope' that's not the answer even though it seems to be a fan-favourite. I'd rather raze the city, and then see poor Parsons with half an army and no caster support try to survive what would likely be a looong trip back.

I wondered about this, but no, if it was that easy, he would have already thought of it. There are probably all sorts of rules guiding when cities can be razed. Otherwise, people would be razing cities whenever they don't think they can defend them or make the enemy pay hard enough for taking them, like when Faq attacked Pogrock.

Kreistor wrote:Further, Stanley just indicated that he doesn't want to move Capital. You think he's going to trust Parson after starting a new Side (without orders) with his Dirtamancer? Splitting a new Side is the most traitorous thing Parson could do. No comms = traitor = no Alliance = no Sizemore = inferno burns anyway.

It isn't betrayal, Parson would just be preserving Gobwin Knob assets in any way he can. He could always remerge the sides later if they both feel that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby sslrranma » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:47 pm

it might be possible for wanda to come through and start a new side. I mean, the fact that the decrypted units have her symbol could have been signamancy for this.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Lipkin » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:36 pm

Kreistor wrote:
drachefly wrote:He can't ally with Stanley, but he certainly can make it clear to the MK that Sizemore was invited.


Without a factual alliance, un-lead units will auto-attack Sizemore anyway. Bad plan. Suicidal, even. And it ignores that going in against Stanley's desires risks immediate Disbanding from a guy that can't even say Sizemore's name. He'd do it just to prove he could.

Another problem:
No treasury without Stanley (since it moved with Trem). Can't rebuild the city, so Jetstone is an undefendable Lvl 0-2, depending when the fire stops. Parson is just as vulnerable. He needs more than casters: he needs Schmuckers. Can't happen without Stanley's help.

Do Rulers know the exact location of their units at every given moment? I don't remember. I find it unlikely he would disband Sizemore out of hand. And I don't actually know what unlead units you are talking about. The hex that Parson is in only has one other "living" unit in it, and he's a warlord too. Even if Parson turns, and Sizemore turned with him, the other warlord wouldn't attack out of hand.

But your point about the city being vulnerable is a good one. that's why Parson cannot stay there.

LordAcme wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Just a thought, it's entirely possible that regardless of Erfworld rules, Parson may not be able to split and form a new side. Allow me to quote:

"Warlord, if you refuse an order, the spell which summoned you will end your existence entirely. You must serve your Lord's will and desires. Forever."

Parson isn't a normal unit, and that grants him unexpected abilities, but I think there may be a limitation or two that comes with that.


... perhaps I wasn't clear enough here.

Let me be more so. Parson is under a spell. A spell that Erfworld units are not normally under. This places limitations on him that other Erfworld units do not share.

Assuming the second and third sentences Wanda spoke wasn't just hyperbole (which is actually possible given how she speaks), this spell will kill him for disloyalty to Stanley.

I put forth that because of the spell, Parson cannot start his own side. Parson must win this battle as as Stanley's warlord or die trying.


I've come to take everything said as hyperbole until explicitly shown otherwise. Plus, we know Parson only has to follow orders to the best of his knowledge and ability. He didn't follow Stanley's orders to manage the city because he didn't know everything it entailed. Stanley made a big deal about how Parson was supposed to disband for not following orders, and Parson pointed out that he thought he had been. Parson didn't think he was being disloyal. I am positing that the only thing that automatically disbands Parson is directly disobeying an order. As far as obeying Stanley's wills and desires forever, I took it to mean that Parson serves Stanley's every whim until Parson is no longer in Stanley's service. Would you explain to a newly summoned warlord that is actively being insubordinate and asking inappropriate questions that they had the capacity to change masters, or form a new side entirely?

My point is this. I think Parson will only disband if he chooses to disobey an order. Chooses. Stanley didn't order anything of Parson, he only turned down his request to move capitol. With communication down, Parson is free to do as he likes, as long as it isn't with the intent to sabotage Gobwin Knob.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Aquillion » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:29 pm

Kreistor wrote:Parson splitting a new Side does not solve the problem.

Sizemore must enter Jetstone. If Parson splits Side, with no comms, he cannot ally with Stanley. No Alliance = Sizemore breaking MK Conventions to enter Jetstone. He would be invading a non-allied Side via Portal.

Not going to happen, or he'd have gone with Parson the first time.
The first time, Parson's life wasn't on the line.

(Well, it was, but only in the abstract -- now, if Sizemore doesn't make it through, Parson definitely dies.)
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Re: Re:

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:37 pm

teratorn wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:He wouldn't disband until he needs to pay his upkeep. Which would be next turn.


The evidence we have thus far contradicts this. Units without a purse disappear immediately as they lose their side, it happened to Wanda, when her side collapsed all units not stacked with her vanished, no need to wait for upkeep to be payed for. I guess you can't be an independent entity without a purse.

I think it depends on the circumstances. If it were true in all cases, it would be impossible to become a fugitive; You'd disband instantly because fugitives don't get a purse.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Kreistor » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:24 pm

Whispri wrote:It should also be noted that Parson's from another World, if the spell tries to disband him it's entiely possible that nothing would happen.


Possible is not equivalent to plausible. Parson is not the only Summoned unit, so the effects of the scroll may be well known. We can now equally speculate that it has already been done to a Summoned unit.

Cubbins wrote:I forget if they're immune to fire or not.


They are. Mentioned in the Klog.

teratorn wrote:I see no evidence Parson can break from GK without vanishing before he can even claim the city, but Antium probably can since uncroaked apparently do not need to be linked to a paying queue.


We already know it can be done.

Book 0 Ep 066 wrote:Haffaton had been founded on a capital site at the mouth of a river (Jillian remembered stealing a paddleboat there), about eleven thousand turns ago. An adventurous warlord named Lex Doothis had crossed a great sea and discovered a Level 2 barbarian city on the site. Upon conquering it, he spun off a new side.


Whispri wrote:
teratorn wrote:Parson can probably order them to break with GK, and start their own side by surrendering the city to them. Then it's in that side's best interest to ally with GK and get Sizemore in.

And again: So what? A Side without a Ruler is destroyed. That has no relevance to whatever Rules rule(s) dictate the number of Units that survive with a Ruler who loses her Capital.


You missed teratorn's point entirely.

1) Order Antium to spin off new Side in Jetstone.
1a) Ruler Antium now controls Jetstone. Portal forms.
1b) GK CW Parson is in Jetstone.
2) Parson surrenders GK forces to Antium.
2a) Parson now captured in Jetstone
3) Parson negotiates Alliance with Antium. (CW's can. We saw Ansom ally with Charlescomm, Book 1.)
4) Parson sticks head through to MK and orders Sizemore and Wanda through to Jetstone.
4a) With no comms to Stanley, they can't know he may be against the order.
5) Antium surrenders to and Turns to GK.
5a) All former GK units once again GK.
5b) Portal disappears.
6) State is now the same as current, with Wanda and Sizemore in Jetstone.

This can work. The one problem is that once he is a Ruler, Antium will mentally change and may not be compliant. It has only the one chance to succeed we know of, since no other Leadership units are mentioned. (May exist, but may not.)

I count this theory as plausible, teratorn. Fairly elegant, with only Antium changing Sides.

Whispri wrote:As I recall, Tremannis [snip]


I see no relevance whatsoever in that paragraph to what I said. No point is made, just some facts stated that have no bearing I can determine. Want to try that one again, please?

And, Wanda can cast Dirtamancy, if he gets Wanda into the hex, that could well be enough.


Parson says, "Dirtamancer," not Dirtamancy. Wanda's non-school castings are light weight and inefficient, and unlikely to handle a hex-wide issue.

What unled Units? They've got two stabbers and a handful of Dwagons, hardly an effort to control.


Citation please. Last description had GK units searching Tower rubble, clearing Dungeon, and fighting across Courtyard. No one to my knowledge has stated they all died. They will die. Haven't yet. Inferno just formed. It's not an "instant kill" effect.

As far as the treasury is concerned, Parson's still Chief Warlord, he can still give orders, there's nothing to stop him pocketing the crown jewels on his way out of the door if it comes to it.


Parson can't. It takes a Moneymancer to turn Schmuckers into gems. Parson can only go Gem->Schmuckers. Parson can only (theoretically, assuming he doesn't have to be in the treasury to fill his purse) take whatever his Purse can hold. As a Level 2? That's going to be pathetically small. Maybe enough for a Level 1 City. Not enough to defend against Charlie's Archons in the AM.

Whispri wrote:Also, Wanda could have a full purse and any number of gems. That price tag she put on the Perfect Warlord Spell could easily have been inflated somewhat.


Wild speculation. She didn't even keep her Scrolls on her during Book 1. You're talking about large scale, unmotivated, groundless insubordination.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby LordAcme » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:53 pm

Doctor Foreman wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Assuming the second and third sentences Wanda spoke wasn't just hyperbole (which is actually possible given how she speaks), this spell will kill him for disloyalty to Stanley.

I put forth that because of the spell, Parson cannot start his own side. Parson must win this battle as as Stanley's warlord or die trying.


I put it to you that units can belong to a side without being particularly loyal to them. Wanda is outright accused of having no loyalty to Stanley, and her response (that she is loyal to Fate magic) makes this a conceivable possibility. Note also that she was capable of selling out her own side for this alleged loyalty.

Parson may be bound to obey Stanley's orders by the terms of the summoning spell, but he may still be able to start or belong to another side. We have seen from Wanda's example that loyalty can transcend side boundaries.


Then I guess it depends on your point of view. You seem to think that the spell will do the minimum to compel him, which is about the same as a normal unit that's not under this spell. But unless Wanda was being dramatic with her speech, the words she spoke outright state that Parson will be killed if he exhibits disloyalty to Stanley in a period of time defined as "forever". So I'd say there's a very large chance the spell's effect is set to enforce the maximum amount of loyalty on Parson.

And most importantly, there's no way for Parson to know what will happen if he betrays Stanley's best interests. The only example of where he disobeyed Stanley's orders was for the good of the side (Book 1, when he, Wanda and Sizemore were ordered to stay out of Stanley's sight), and that's definitely ok for a normal unit. If he abandons Stanley, or even takes an action that may be in Stanley's or GK's best interests (such as starting a side with the intent to ally with GK or turn to GK afterwards) but the intent of which the spell can't discern, he may just die right there.

I think this possibility is way more solid than the question of whether he can start another side, which relies almost completely on conjecture at this point.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby LordAcme » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:04 pm

Lipkin wrote:
LordAcme wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Just a thought, it's entirely possible that regardless of Erfworld rules, Parson may not be able to split and form a new side. Allow me to quote:

"Warlord, if you refuse an order, the spell which summoned you will end your existence entirely. You must serve your Lord's will and desires. Forever."

Parson isn't a normal unit, and that grants him unexpected abilities, but I think there may be a limitation or two that comes with that.


... perhaps I wasn't clear enough here.

Let me be more so. Parson is under a spell. A spell that Erfworld units are not normally under. This places limitations on him that other Erfworld units do not share.

Assuming the second and third sentences Wanda spoke wasn't just hyperbole (which is actually possible given how she speaks), this spell will kill him for disloyalty to Stanley.

I put forth that because of the spell, Parson cannot start his own side. Parson must win this battle as as Stanley's warlord or die trying.


I've come to take everything said as hyperbole until explicitly shown otherwise. Plus, we know Parson only has to follow orders to the best of his knowledge and ability. He didn't follow Stanley's orders to manage the city because he didn't know everything it entailed. Stanley made a big deal about how Parson was supposed to disband for not following orders, and Parson pointed out that he thought he had been. Parson didn't think he was being disloyal. I am positing that the only thing that automatically disbands Parson is directly disobeying an order. As far as obeying Stanley's wills and desires forever, I took it to mean that Parson serves Stanley's every whim until Parson is no longer in Stanley's service. Would you explain to a newly summoned warlord that is actively being insubordinate and asking inappropriate questions that they had the capacity to change masters, or form a new side entirely?

My point is this. I think Parson will only disband if he chooses to disobey an order. Chooses. Stanley didn't order anything of Parson, he only turned down his request to move capitol. With communication down, Parson is free to do as he likes, as long as it isn't with the intent to sabotage Gobwin Knob.


Of course Wanda wasn't explaining everything, but that doesn't mean she wasn't being literal with what she did say. We can't really know for sure, but as I said to the other poster, I guess it depends on your point of view. If the spell enforces only the normal rules for loyalty, Parson can act as an ordinary warlord would.

I would point out that the opposite possibility - that this spell enforces the maximum amount of loyalty - was explicitly stated. By someone who speaks in very dramatic terms, and furthermore may have been misinformed by the MK casters who created it, but we can only speculate as to whether those words were not the exact, literal truth.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Doctor Foreman » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:22 am

LordAcme wrote:Then I guess it depends on your point of view. You seem to think that the spell will do the minimum to compel him, which is about the same as a normal unit that's not under this spell. But unless Wanda was being dramatic with her speech, the words she spoke outright state that Parson will be killed if he exhibits disloyalty to Stanley in a period of time defined as "forever". So I'd say there's a very large chance the spell's effect is set to enforce the maximum amount of loyalty on Parson.


"Forever" describes duration, not intensity. And sure, I can believe that Wanda was being dramatic. She was telling a new underling how it's going to be. She's deliberately projecting authority.

And most importantly, there's no way for Parson to know what will happen if he betrays Stanley's best interests. The only example of where he disobeyed Stanley's orders was for the good of the side (Book 1, when he, Wanda and Sizemore were ordered to stay out of Stanley's sight), and that's definitely ok for a normal unit.

No. Parson disobeyed Stanley's order to inspect the city on a regular basis, something which Stanley said he shouldn't be capable of.

If he abandons Stanley, or even takes an action that may be in Stanley's or GK's best interests (such as starting a side with the intent to ally with GK or turn to GK afterwards) but the intent of which the spell can't discern, he may just die right there.

Sure, it's possible.

I think this possibility is way more solid than the question of whether he can start another side, which relies almost completely on conjecture at this point.

Predicting the volcano uncroaking would also have relied purely on conjecture. Just sayin'. We're at the climax of this story arc - all things are conjecture at this point.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Kreistor » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:32 am

In writing, it's not conjecture. It's Meta-thinking by the reader. "There's a volcano. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't going to erupt." Implausible facts are inevitably necessary to the plot or resolution of the plot, so are always important in some way. Authors have only so much fluff they can hide these devices behind, since you can only describe so much before the reader gets bored. In the case of Book 1, the eruption was a glaringly obvious "I'm not going to lose" solution to the problem of overwhelming RCC superiority, so was suggested as the solution almost the moment it was revealed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Althernai » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:53 am

LordAcme wrote:Of course Wanda wasn't explaining everything, but that doesn't mean she wasn't being literal with what she did say. We can't really know for sure, but as I said to the other poster, I guess it depends on your point of view. If the spell enforces only the normal rules for loyalty, Parson can act as an ordinary warlord would.

I would point out that the opposite possibility - that this spell enforces the maximum amount of loyalty - was explicitly stated. By someone who speaks in very dramatic terms, and furthermore may have been misinformed by the MK casters who created it, but we can only speculate as to whether those words were not the exact, literal truth.

It's possible, but given Parson's behavior, it is much more likely that the spell actually enforces an obedience that is weaker than that of typical Erfworld units. What is the first thing Parson does after being told he must obey? He convinces Stanley that what Parson perceives to be an insult is actually a term of respect. Later, he subverts Stanley's order not to speak until ordered by having somebody else order him to speak. Even later, he is told to manage a city and doesn't do it because he assumes simply being in the city is enough. Thus, Wanda's statement about serving Stanley's will and desires is clearly an exaggeration: Parson is bound to obey direct, carefully worded orders... but that's about it.

Also, remember that we have already met a character summoned from another world with either the same or a very similar spell who eventually became an Overlady and freed herself from direct command. I think Parson claiming Spacerock and starting his own side makes the most sense out of the remaining outcomes because it's the only reason why the Predictamancers would be so excited about this turn. Every other outcome is relatively tame -- a costly victory for Gobwin Knob, but hardly a turning point.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Doctor Foreman » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:02 am

Althernai wrote:It's possible, but given Parson's behavior, it is much more likely that the spell actually enforces an obedience that is weaker than that of typical Erfworld units. What is the first thing Parson does after being told he must obey? He convinces Stanley that what Parson perceives to be an insult is actually a term of respect.

That isn't really about obedience so much as respect, and there is no natural magic governing respect in Erfworld.

Later, he subverts Stanley's order not to speak until ordered by having somebody else order him to speak.

That's a consequence of Parson's lateral thinking, not unique freedoms. It's on the same level as Maggie giving a suggestion to Stanley. In fact, it's even less of a violation as he has Chief Warlord prerogative (needs to be able to speak to function properly) while Maggie doesn't have Duty-based veto power over direct orders.

Even later, he is told to manage a city and doesn't do it because he assumes simply being in the city is enough. Thus, Wanda's statement about serving Stanley's will and desires is clearly an exaggeration: Parson is bound to obey direct, carefully worded orders... but that's about it.

This is to some degree true of all Erfworld units, though. Remember the update when it's noted that commanding units is an art form - Parson is capable of even unintentionally compelling units to do things (like jumping off walls). And uncroaked have a limited capacity to process orders - they won't obey you even if you directly command them into a "fighting retreat". So I'm not sure it's a consequence of the spell so much as Parson's ignorance limiting his ability to process commands. It's a natural Thinkamancy problem, not a Duty problem; Stanley just miscategorizes it because he can't grasp how alien Parson is.

Also, remember that we have already met a character summoned from another world with either the same or a very similar spell who eventually became an Overlady and freed herself from direct command.

Or was freed - it's still not clear how Judy became Ruler.

I think Parson claiming Spacerock and starting his own side makes the most sense out of the remaining outcomes because it's the only reason why the Predictamancers would be so excited about this turn. Every other outcome is relatively tame -- a costly victory for Gobwin Knob, but hardly a turning point.

If the Predictamancers see Charlie as the Big Bad of Erfworld, another reason they would be so excited is simply that Parson is now fully motivated to destroy him. The turning point being internal (Parson's character) rather than external.
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