Book 2 – Page 107

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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Oberon » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:32 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:You're just supporting my point there.
No, I'm not. You're trying to change the discussion and in doing so trying to add more weasel words in order to try to support your flawed position. Why don't you give up while you're already far behind?

First it was "Parson is an idiot for charging into a fire!", and when you're proven wrong suddenly your point changes to "Parson should have asked for status reports!" Right, when did he have time for that? He was a little busy with the Idiot Minds Who Reverse Themselves, remember?

All I see is a lot of false suppositions attempting to support an already disproved set of false statements.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Aquillion » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:52 pm

Kreistor wrote:Had he not involved himself, Wanda, Ansom, and Jack would all be trapped and soon dead. The Arkenpliers lost. RCC2 victorious and headed for GK.

I can't agree that he has made a mistake, except for his own personal risk of death. From Stanley's perspective, he has lost much, but he still has Wanda and her Tool. Parson trading himself for that is probably worth it, even if he distrusts her. Without Parson, it would have been total annihilation, and a fully functional enemy force to attack back with. At worst, Parson has bought time for Wanda and Stanley to rebuild while the RCC rebuilds.

From a personal survival standpoint, Parson made a mistake. From a military standpoint, he won a limited victory already. And it is not yet over.
Sure, he accomplished a lot with the dragon drop, but everything since then has been one line of mistakes. If he'd simply told Jack and Wanda to take the city instead of telling them to move to the portal so he could join them himself, they would have won already. If he'd told them why he wanted to move through the portal, they would have won already.

It's not totally his fault, no (they did several things he didn't order them to, especially entering the portal.) But he's their boss, he's been working with them for a while, and ultimately it was his responsibility to know what to tell them in order to have them implement his plans properly. He screwed it up, and he screwed it up partially because his plans included a stupid and dangerous step that involved him moving through the Magic Kingdom for little or no benefit.

It didn't just endanger him, too. By leading Wanda and Jack to believe that contacting him was a vital tactical objective, he put them in a position to make the catastrophic decision to enter the portal. Even if everything had gone perfectly, he still would have permanently soured Gobwin Knob's relations with the Magic Kingdom, lost the ability to pull that trick if it ever became actually vital, and left himself stranded in Jetstone (remember, he's a heavy, so no dragon relay.) All of these things had heavy costs for his side, not just for him, and he was making everyone on his side pay them

Oberon wrote:
Aquillion wrote:And Wanda entered the portal entirely because Parson was unclear about the plans -- she thought she had to speak with him. All Parson had to do to avoid this was say "STAY THERE NO MATTER WHAT, I'M JUST COMING TO BRING MY WARLORD BONUS."
No competent leader is ever going to give such an order unless it is for a very specific and special purpose, such as the deliberate sacrifice of some part of an army to save the majority part. i.e. "You're to hold this position at all costs until the 5th army units cross this bridge. No relief will be assigned to your forces." The commander given such an order knows exactly what is going on, and what he is being asked to do, and he does his duty despite his desire to protect the lives of the men under his command.

That was not the case at all, and so Parson can easily be forgiven from not issuing the exact kind of micro-managing, absolutist order that you suggested.

I take it you have neither served in the military in any command capacity nor studied military history. Or you would not have made such a statement.
You're focusing on the wrong part. I didn't mean that Parson should literally order her to never move no matter what, no -- yeah, I'll admit I exaggerated for effect there. My point is that he needed to give her at least a bit more information about his plans for her to make informed strategic decisions; it's the "I'm just coming to bring my chief warlord bonus" bit that she needed to know. If he'd said, at any point, "I'm just coming to bring my chief warlord bonus!", she would have known not to enter the portal to try and meet him. He gave them the impression that he had some secret master plan when he didn't.

(And I believe that this was at least partially deliberate on his part, because he was unwilling to admit -- to them or himself -- that his moving to Jetstone was mostly for personal and not tactical reasons; his chief warlord bonus, as we all know, isn't high enough to make a massive difference when compared to the bonus from Wanda or the Arkenpliers.)

Wanda and Jack could have taken the city -- the commander they were with at the time pointed it out. Instead he had them waiting uselessly by the portal for him, and allowed them to believe -- incorrectly -- that meeting up with him was a vital tactical objective. Everything that went wrong since then was because of that mistake.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Aquillion » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:57 pm

effataigus wrote:As long as we're mucking about in the past...

I'm remembering back to when Ossomer was suggesting that Wanda fly in under veil and kill Jillian (we'd be looking at a very different story if she had). What I'm curious about is how that conversation would have gone if it had been Ansom riding by Wanda instead of Ossomer. Would he have suggested the tactic?
Definitely not. Decryption hasn't changed how he feels about her, it just changed the context -- he puts his duty to Wanda over his love for her, because that's the kind of guy he is.

If he'd been there, though, I suspect he would have tried to argue that Wanda let him talk to Jillian instead (and would have been baffled when Wanda said no, since he doesn't know about Wanda and Jillian's relationship -- from his perspective, it makes logical sense for him to talk to Jillian. He's a True Believer, so he thinks that other people will come to believe the same thing if he just talks to them enough, especially someone who he loves, like Jillian.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:59 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:From there, the rest of GK's army could fight-and perhaps even win, with Hamster carefully coordinating GK's forces at distance trough thinkmancy.

I was going to point out that Maggie was just about out of juice (plus the archons were due to get dusted and couldn't have talked to units in the dungeon), but really, Parson should have demanded assistance with tactical communication from the GMTTA in return for acceding to their request to brief him. Since Charlie provides such services all the time without being considered non-neutral, that wouldn't have violated MK neutrality.

Sending Wanda back into Spacerock would have done more bonus-wise than Parson's entry, not to mention her ability to do tactical decryption, so the deal Parson made was quite poor.

I'm wondering if the compromise of not letting Wanda and Jack through was actually Parson's idea, based on being more willing to risk himself than them. Either way, letting that deal change the whole GK strategy of having their Pliermancer and Foolamancer travel with the army was rather rash. It's as if Parson felt there no longer was a GK army in Spacerock, discounting the ability of the Pliers to instantly create one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:48 am

Just now noticed parsons hand on the corner of the eyebook. Pretty slick art there, to convey emotion with a hand and a sheet of paper.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby youngstormlord » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:37 am

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but I feel like it wasn't. It's about Charlie's plan.

Parson still owes Charlie a certain number of Mathamancy calculations. What are the terms of their agreement and how are they enforced? If Parson is magically compelled to do those calculations every time Charlie asks him to, there's a very nasty trick Charlie could do:

Simply ask Parson to do all his calculations right then and there! With about two minutes until Parson burns to death, it will take him much longer to do all the computation needed than he has...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby effataigus » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:55 am

The only big mistake I believe Parson has made was setting foot in the Magic Kingdom in the first place... aside from that:

Walking into a known trap... he only knew it was a trap because he had knowledge of the future. That same meta-knowledge told him that he would "win," so we're more than a little premature on assigning blame now.

Not ordering his troops to not be idiots... it would have been hard for Parson to foresee that Wanda would come to meet him in TMK (allowing Ossomer to turn?) or that TGMTTA would be so bizarre and arbitrary in keeping her there. Also, that boneheaded move may have saved Wanda, and, from where I'm sitting, Wanda is more important to GK than Parson. It also would have been hard to foresee the inferno because it was so monumentally bad of an idea. Consider what Sylvia says about it here:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -08-29.jpg

She indicates that, once the city is taken, they can escape to the outer walls. 17ish updates later, we learn:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-11.jpg

So we are now led to believe that even the outer walls are no longer safe... perhaps because GK failed to fight the fire while they could have? Either way, Syliva was looking at an oncoming force that GK could and did take in a fair fight, and decided to resort to a plan Z which could very likely have killed Jack, her mistress, herself, and-now-Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Cnor » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:57 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:I was going to point out that Maggie was just about out of juice (plus the archons were due to get dusted and couldn't have talked to units in the dungeon), but really, Parson should have demanded assistance with tactical communication from the GMTTA in return for acceding to their request to brief him. Since Charlie provides such services all the time without being considered non-neutral, that wouldn't have violated MK neutrality.


That's not entirely without merit, but... Consider that, A, they were insisting on taking him back to the Thinkamancer's Temple, which is completely Thinkamancy shielded, and thus they would not have been able to provide such services until after the briefing, and B, Maggie was insisting that the briefing would take too long. Even if Parson's unaware of the first bit, Maggie certainly isn't, and he knows she has more information than she does, so listening to her about that makes a great deal of sense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:33 pm

Cnor wrote:That's not entirely without merit, but... Consider that, A, they were insisting on taking him back to the Thinkamancer's Temple, which is completely Thinkamancy shielded, and thus they would not have been able to provide such services until after the briefing, and B, Maggie was insisting that the briefing would take too long. Even if Parson's unaware of the first bit, Maggie certainly isn't, and he knows she has more information than she does, so listening to her about that makes a great deal of sense.

To clarify, I was imagining a magical contract where Parson would commit to accompanying them to the Temple after the battle at Spacerock was resolved one way or another, and staying in the MK in the meantime, in return for the GMTTA providing thinkagram services during the battle. I agree there was no way he could be expected to agree to having the briefing happen first.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Whispri » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:14 pm

Glome wrote:
Whispri wrote:Moot point, they were all Decrypted.

The dwagons carrying Hobgobwins weren't all decrypted, they fell because their riders were promoted to heavies.

Oh sure, some of the Dwagons came down alive, but the reds were all croaked.

teratorn wrote:
Whispri wrote:And again: So what? A Side without a Ruler is destroyed.

And again your point is moot and simply not true, if the units are inside one of their cities they keep on living. Why do units outside simply vanish?

Why does it matter? That's what happens when the a ruler dies without an heir. We were talking of what happens when a Ruler survives the fall of the Capital, a rather different kettle of fish.

Kreistor wrote:Possible is not equivalent to plausible. Parson is not the only Summoned unit, so the effects of the scroll may be well known. We can now equally speculate that it has already been done to a Summoned unit.

You missed teratorn's point entirely.

I see no relevance whatsoever in that paragraph to what I said. No point is made, just some facts stated that have no bearing I can determine. Want to try that one again, please?

Parson says, "Dirtamancer," not Dirtamancy. Wanda's non-school castings are light weight and inefficient, and unlikely to handle a hex-wide issue.

Citation please. Last description had GK units searching Tower rubble, clearing Dungeon, and fighting across Courtyard. No one to my knowledge has stated they all died. They will die. Haven't yet. Inferno just formed. It's not an "instant kill" effect.

Parson can't. It takes a Moneymancer to turn Schmuckers into gems. Parson can only go Gem->Schmuckers. Parson can only (theoretically, assuming he doesn't have to be in the treasury to fill his purse) take whatever his Purse can hold. As a Level 2? That's going to be pathetically small. Maybe enough for a Level 1 City. Not enough to defend against Charlie's Archons in the AM.

Wild speculation. She didn't even keep her Scrolls on her during Book 1. You're talking about large scale, unmotivated, groundless insubordination.

I must have mnissed the part whereJudy disbanded. It's not even about the spell, it's about where Parson comes from.

Yeeeeah, I was replying to the other part of that post, the bit you cut out of your quote.

... A level one Warlord went out and formed an alliance on his own authority. Parson, as Chief Warlord, has far more authority than Tremannis did that day.

And the magic Dirtamancers use happens to be Dirtamancy.

Did you not notice the explosion that took out poor Sylvia? Did you not see the Jack going out into that Courtyard and surveying what remains? Go find some evidence of survivors beyond Parson's small band and the Dwagons if you can.

He can still spend the money, there's more to life than gems. As for army sizes, as long Wanda is the part of the Side, not a problem.

Wanda isn't even slightly loyal to Stanley, she's a fatalist, the Side was dying and Stanley couldn't keep the money if Ansom took the City. Also, those Scrolls were in the dungeons, easily grabbed on her way to the Portal if it came to it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Cnor » Wed May 01, 2013 9:04 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Cnor wrote:That's not entirely without merit, but... Consider that, A, they were insisting on taking him back to the Thinkamancer's Temple, which is completely Thinkamancy shielded, and thus they would not have been able to provide such services until after the briefing, and B, Maggie was insisting that the briefing would take too long. Even if Parson's unaware of the first bit, Maggie certainly isn't, and he knows she has more information than she does, so listening to her about that makes a great deal of sense.

To clarify, I was imagining a magical contract where Parson would commit to accompanying them to the Temple after the battle at Spacerock was resolved one way or another, and staying in the MK in the meantime, in return for the GMTTA providing thinkagram services during the battle. I agree there was no way he could be expected to agree to having the briefing happen first.


Ah, fair enough.

The question in that case is 'does the magic to make such contracts exist?', which is hard to answer. Moneymancy might be able to do it. Perhaps Date-a-mancy, too. But on the other hand, most units don't actually have free will. It's likely that, at the very least, it would have needed Stanley to sign off on it to make it binding, and such things might not be something they've even considered due to the fact that units could be ordered to break them.
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