Book 2 - Text Updates 058

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby drachefly » Tue May 07, 2013 9:50 am

multilis wrote:
drachefly wrote: while he's holding an arkentool that lets him fly...

I think unknown if hammer lets him fly.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F031.jpg
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby teratorn » Tue May 07, 2013 9:56 am

drachefly wrote:
multilis wrote:
drachefly wrote: while he's holding an arkentool that lets him fly...

I think unknown if hammer lets him fly.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F031.jpg


It let's him fly straight up.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Morni » Tue May 07, 2013 10:00 am

drachefly wrote:
multilis wrote:
drachefly wrote: while he's holding an arkentool that lets him fly...

I think unknown if hammer lets him fly.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F031.jpg


I never notice before the last few update.. about the whistle on the arkenhammer. But even in those early strip if you pay attention it's there. Awesome!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby davesnothere » Tue May 07, 2013 10:00 am

peteratjet wrote:Meanwhile, back in the Magic Kingdom ....

... presumably, if/when Stanley switches capitals, it will be the GK portal that links to Spacerock, not the Jetstone portal, where the magical mexican standoff was going on. Wanda and Sizemore will have to hotfoot it back to the GK portal sharpish if they want to go through, but they may not know that. Since Stanley gave Maggie an order to contact him, she's probably already en-route, given that Charlie is blocking comms so she has to do it in person (which, ok, assumes he can't block natural ruler comms)


Well, I was about to say that the Jetstone portal closed in the MK, but that's not true. The king's double just moved the Erf side of it.
The Jetstone portal in the MK probably still looks the same, and the crowd is probably none the wiser. (until someone attempts to scout the situation)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Aquillion » Tue May 07, 2013 10:09 am

The big question is what the situation is like in the MK. The fact that Maggie isn't responding is worrying -- it's possible that Sizemore isn't available there anymore, either.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby drachefly » Tue May 07, 2013 10:41 am

teratorn wrote:
drachefly wrote:
multilis wrote:I think unknown if hammer lets him fly.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F031.jpg

It let's him fly straight up.


/me drinks a potion of polymorph*, turns into Oberon.

This is a totally unfounded assertion. We do not know the rules around these things. If you'd said 'It LET him fly straight up', that would be correct. To generalize this restriction is a serious error.


* I got it from the newbie pack at the EGS forum
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Oberon » Tue May 07, 2013 10:54 am

the_reil_neil wrote:
Using his Ruler sense, he gave her an order to contact him, and waited.

Emphasis added.

I think this puts an end to the question of whether Chief Warlords can give Natural Thinkamancy orders to distant units.
Has it even been a question for quite a long time now? Perhaps within the ranks of the tinfoil hat and epileptic twee brigade, but I don't recall seeing any rational discussion that doubted this mechanic.

Or, wait... Are you using the word ruler to decide that only rulers can give remote orders? If so, then this discussion just became one of the tinfoil hat and epileptic twee brigade variety. I refer you to Vinny and the bats at the donut of doom, as just one example. And Vinny wasn't even the CWL, he was just a warlord giving remote orders to a unit.

multilis wrote:
drachefly wrote: while he's holding an arkentool that lets him fly...

I think unknown if hammer lets him fly.
What part of:
This update wrote:He could jump out his office window and fly, if he had the Arkenhammer.
was vaguely worded or difficult to understand?

drachefly wrote:/me drinks a potion of polymorph*, turns into Oberon.

This is a totally unfounded assertion. We do not know the rules around these things. If you'd said 'It LET him fly straight up', that would be correct. To generalize this restriction is a serious error.


* I got it from the newbie pack at the EGS forum
I will be expecting the royalty check to be in the mail by the end of the month.


My favorite part of this update: Stanley actually thinking about his feelings towards Parson, and coming to the conclusion that he likes him. He's not quite self-aware enough to realize that the friction between them was due to his own jealousy and insecurity, but it's a start.

The most interesting part of this update: Stanley even considering spinning off a new side. Much less one for the CWL who has, as Stanley realizes, turned a 13 city loss and the near end of his side into a large and powerful side again. And who cost him 350,000 smuckers to get in the first place.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby 0beron » Tue May 07, 2013 11:31 am

Oberon wrote:
multilis wrote:I think unknown if hammer lets him fly.
What part of:
"He could jump out his office window and fly, if he had the Arkenhammer." was vaguely worded or difficult to understand.

To be fair, I think the topic up for debate is whether the 'Hammer grants true flight, or simple levitation. In this particular case, its a matter of semantics since either one would save him from falling, but perhaps that's what Multilis was getting at.
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There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby the_tick_rules » Tue May 07, 2013 12:27 pm

I remember when the tools dragon squad fought Transylvito and he was using the hammer and Vinnie was pretty sure he couldn't leave the hex with it, and I'm pretty sure he didn't. If that is true I guess being limited to one hex might not be considered flight, especially by erf standards.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Diacritic » Tue May 07, 2013 1:00 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:I remember when the tools dragon squad fought Transylvito and he was using the hammer and Vinnie was pretty sure he couldn't leave the hex with it, and I'm pretty sure he didn't. If that is true I guess being limited to one hex might not be considered flight, especially by erf standards.


My understanding was that he didn't have any move left without a mount, not that this was an inherent trait of the Hammer.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby 0beron » Tue May 07, 2013 1:12 pm

Yeah, we also can't necessarily trust the comments of a warlord who isn't wielding the thing.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Morni » Tue May 07, 2013 1:29 pm

Arkentool power's aren't widely knows. No one knew what a decrypt unit was until Wanda started.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Salem » Tue May 07, 2013 1:33 pm

effataigus wrote:Yep... tis a fun text update. Thanks!

My question is where does Charlie's predictamancy end? I'm of the opinion that he had some help figuring out that Parson would go through the portals to Spacerock and that the city would end up on fire. Alternately, he's just a genius in predicting things. Either way, you have to wonder at what point team GK will stop doing things that he has already predicted and prepared for. There's no reason I see for that point to be between the Jojo updates and now.

I love that Stanley thinks in the same lingo that many of us forumites write with.


I always felt Charlie had the benefit of fate more than predictamancy. I mean book 0 really confuzzles the way I look at things, so rather than Charlie being X I kind of feel he's playing a role assigned by fate.

In book 1 Charlie was doing what Parson had wanted. In the game Parson was designing the game cheated the players. (I guess that fits with carnymancy) The only way to winw as supposed to be lateral thinking. I always felt it was less Charlie being a mary sue and more Charlie being this. Parson would have beaten the RCC easily without Charlie, at least that's the impression I got. Which is not as awesome as waking the mountain. Which was in fact awesome.

Not to mention Charlie makes huge mistakes most of which are ego based. He lost a pile of archons, not because of lateral thinking but because he broke his own rules. He knew for a fact Parson was special. Let’s see here.

1. He bet on the lame horse and shot the healthy one.
More precisely he thought he bet on the healthy horse and was shooting the lame one, and then at some point while still neutral found out that Parson had turned a lame horse into well a less lame then the RCC horse.

2. I really don't remember any of Charlie’s other rules, but he already saw lateral thinking in action at the scene and he continued to play assuming it was still a direct conflict. Assuming that his + to firepower would tip the scales. Or more likely he was acting desperate because a player was on the scene.

He's not perfect and he makes mistakes, he seems to be a tool of fate playing the role of making everything the players do not work. But he's not perfect so either there's a bit of Charlie ex machina with the whole future sense or something hinkie is going on.

This was a very roundabout way of getting back to your post.

I believe the only thing Charlie will not have a contingency plan for is lateral thinking. He will have to adapt other plans to try and cover for it.

I think it would be a bit unfair to say that they're doing things he's predicted and prepared for more so that he prepares for a lot of contingencies that respond to a wide array of factors. "Counters force, counters casters, and a big gambit." I mean giving the RCC2 another turn interrupting GK does seem like it was the perfect counter to what they were doing, but it's a great counter to a lot of things especially when your forces are divided. The only thing I see that really seems BS predictamcy required is the fire trap. Not because fire, not because trap. Trapping him wouldn't need to have an immediate effect he would still be stranded. The fire is a bonus. It's the fact Jojo was waiting for Parson with the scroll. He had to know he'd be entering the magic kingdom then. Are we supposed to think traitor? Or prediction?

Now if he knew Parson was going through the portal, why bother with the scroll. That leaves what,
A. He doesn't want to kill a human if he can avoid it.
B. He isn't sure the trap will work.
C. The scroll offers some other benefit and the trap is just a way to make him use it.
D. Crazy theory go here.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby teratorn » Tue May 07, 2013 1:58 pm

drachefly wrote:This is a totally unfounded assertion.


You're arguing just for the sake of it. Besides your example, there's also the battle with transylvito, again the hammer took them straight up. Vinny also expected him to hit the top of the hex, and not being able to leave the hex. The only evidence for flight with the hammer that we have is straight up, and the fact Stanley was considering using the hammer to avoid a fall, but not to avoid using stairs up the tower sort of nails it.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Louti » Tue May 07, 2013 2:10 pm

drachefly wrote:He's thinking about using the stairs, while he's holding an arkentool that lets him fly. And Zhopa is talking about help? I hope it's throwing.

How fast can he fly? They are in the portal room which is underground and the windows along the stairs are too small to fit trough, so he would either have to run out of the building before flying or fly up the stairs. If he can run faster than fly then there is no use for the arkentool.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Lipkin » Tue May 07, 2013 2:43 pm

Zhopa could carry him.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby effataigus » Tue May 07, 2013 2:51 pm

Salem wrote:...omitted for brevity...

You got me wondering... just what has Charlie seemed to have advance notice of?

1. The veiled flyer captial strike... long enough advance notice to both get Faq in position and station them at Spacerock instead of E-Bridge.
2. Parson's counter... Charlie refused to tell Jillian what Spacerock had to fear, but knew something was coming.
3. Parson going through TMK. Jojo was waiting. "That's hard predictamancy (Marie, translated)."
4. Parson having the staff of suckage. Why else use a scroll that would tempt Parson to cast it on himself instead of a firing squad? As you point out, there are other possible reasons, though none are great.
5. Anticipating the unlikely reactions of TMTTI (I for inexplicably... definitely predictamancy... nobody saw that ruling coming as a logical outcome).
-Correlary... Wanda's decision to go check in on Parson.
6. Inferno grade fire and the explosion that caused it. Yes, the fire might just be the cherry on top of this trap, but why go through the elaborate capital switch when Parson could have been trapped much more easily by having Clonely leave the city and disband Cubbins as soon as Parson steps through the portal. Closing the portal just makes it so Parson can't say "whoa, nm, gl!" as soon as he sees the fire.
-Admittedly, Charlie might have just hoped that the JS strike force would be enough to kill Parson... somewhat unlike Charlie, but it's also probably unlike him to not play a card if it doesn't cost him anything to play.

Tapping into thinkagrams accounts for Charlie knowing... 1, 2, and 3, but none of the others from where I'm sitting.

Anyway, the two most likely outcomes of this line of reasoning are that:
1. Charlie has predictamancy, help from a predictamancer, or some other power that accounts for his extra knowledge.
2. Charlie is, as you suggest, Salem, an agent of fate.

The second option is somewhat unsatisfying to me... it implies that Charlie will push Parson just hard enough to tell the story that it wants to tell. This means that Parson isn't really an active agent... but rather just a passive thing that is dancing to fate's puppet strings. Of course, we KNOW this to be the case (Rob is writing him after all), but it's not much fun when the story becomes the logic behind the story. "Charlie does these things because he does them in the story."
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Salem » Tue May 07, 2013 4:20 pm

effataigus wrote:
Salem wrote:...omitted for brevity...

You got me wondering... just what has Charlie seemed to have advance notice of?

1. The veiled flyer captial strike... long enough advance notice to both get Faq in position and station them at Spacerock instead of E-Bridge.
2. Parson's counter... Charlie refused to tell Jillian what Spacerock had to fear, but knew something was coming.
3. Parson going through TMK. Jojo was waiting. "That's hard predictamancy (Marie, translated)."
4. Parson having the staff of suckage. Why else use a scroll that would tempt Parson to cast it on himself instead of a firing squad? As you point out, there are other possible reasons, though none are great.
5. Anticipating the unlikely reactions of TMTTI (I for inexplicably... definitely predictamancy... nobody saw that ruling coming as a logical outcome).
-Correlary... Wanda's decision to go check in on Parson.
6. Inferno grade fire and the explosion that caused it. Yes, the fire might just be the cherry on top of this trap, but why go through the elaborate capital switch when Parson could have been trapped much more easily by having Clonely leave the city and disband Cubbins as soon as Parson steps through the portal. Closing the portal just makes it so Parson can't say "whoa, nm, gl!" as soon as he sees the fire.
-Admittedly, Charlie might have just hoped that the JS strike force would be enough to kill Parson... somewhat unlike Charlie, but it's also probably unlike him to not play a card if it doesn't cost him anything to play.

Tapping into thinkagrams accounts for Charlie knowing... 1, 2, and 3, but none of the others from where I'm sitting.

Anyway, the two most likely outcomes of this line of reasoning are that:
1. Charlie has predictamancy, help from a predictamancer, or some other power that accounts for his extra knowledge.
2. Charlie is, as you suggest, Salem, an agent of fate.

The second option is somewhat unsatisfying to me... it implies that Charlie will push Parson just hard enough to tell the story that it wants to tell. This means that Parson isn't really an active agent... but rather just a passive thing that is dancing to fate's puppet strings. Of course, we KNOW this to be the case (Rob is writing him after all), but it's not much fun when the story becomes the logic behind the story. "Charlie does these things because he does them in the story."


1. This definetly feels like it would take thinkamancy. Unless we're giving charlie super general skills too and he was spying on their other attacks as they pushed forward and saw heavy air forces, and then added in the foolamancer. Or you know had been watching them before the veil came up. Charlie loves his archons not just because of sexual assault reasons, but becasue of usefulness reasons.
2. This would be a long gambit thinkamancy since it wasn't expressley said on the scene, but he's probably been spying for a long time, the question is did they ever talk about it on eyebooks or thinkamancy links before the battle, I think not. I think he just wanted to be prepared for Parson, because Parson.
3. Charlie only gets half of this. knowing it's happening fair, having Jojo ready AND with a scroll, with minimal time to prepare unlikely. Unless it was a plan in motion that shifted suddenly.
4. Charlie wants him dead or gone. Either is a win, the scroll might have tempted him. Maybe he doesn't want to kill a human.(Doubt that) Charlie likes layered plans, where you can fail 50 times an succede on 51. So tossing in another chance to get the threat gone of their own choice, is nice.
5. Guh, yeah, this was magic. I mean it's not like predictamancy alone would have cut it, had he been knowing "Parson will go through, he'd A known the scroll would not be used till after the portal if ever, and B would not have given Jojo the order to go back unless the predictamancy was "He will IF Jojo does X." But if Jojo didn't Parson may have died there. Unless he has some other goal involving the magic kingdom, but that just sounds tinfoily.
6. Lets see, if only Cubins was in the city. Which means all ground forces would have been able to evacuate in time, and we know some could have so probably they all could have. This is an odd scenario of odds I assume.

a1. No forces makes the search and croaking of cubins easier, parson doesn't get through in time.
a2. Works as planned trap snaps shut, no inferno, charlie must have an attack plan. Possibly RCC2 charge with hagar and Jetstone.
b1. Notice of wntire retreat of all enemy forces, parson doesn't go through. (Parson has time to get someone else to be CWL)
b2. Notice of entire retreat of all enemy forces, parson goes through to lead from the front.
c1. Story plays out as is with stanly charge.
c2. Stanley fails trap slaps shut too soon.
c3. Stanley fails and trap snaps shut when ACE hardware and bear dies. Inferno still exists.
c4. Any of the above with charge plan.

Predictamancy is definetly likely here. I don't see another explanation because if Charlie has a backup plan the ONLY out is the scroll. So if he had something other than inferno planned Best case scenario, sizemore and wanda come through, clean house, ressurect army, charlie's real plan unfolds. Now for the real plan to work if he didn't know about the inferno, it has to be powerful enough to overcome what the expected results of the battle were, GK with more forces than they entered with. In which case WTF this all seems moot. Because why not just charge the entire coalition to crush GK with them and just end that fight taking out the pliers and wanda.

Because, magic, yeah, I mean really his actions only seem to make sense if we assume that he KNEW parson would be in Jetstone, which means we can assume he was sure he wouldn't use the scroll. Which makes me wonder why in hell Jeftichew changed his game mid way. It seemed clear Charlie told him to, so was that Charlie moving for the easy way? Rather than the hard way?

Charlie as fate tool. (It should be noted I view Charlie as a creepy sex offender.)
I think it depends on how you interpret the concept. I imagine it perrsay like Charlie is the GMs favorite tool, the GM being fate. Charlie is also pervasive in Erfworld, his forces in places we will probably never see. So fate uses or perhaps causes something to shift what his preperations would normally be, turning them into perfect counters, but this doesn't mean Charlie could never choose the very hard way. The story is about free will after all. I could see Charlie to be the type to know fate is using him and to allow it when it was a benefit and fight it when it was a negative. However I'm not betting on this it could be a million things, I was just tossin' it out there.

(Sorry I probably switched topics a few times, I'm not somewhere where I can edit heavily. I appologize)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Lipkin » Tue May 07, 2013 4:24 pm

effataigus wrote:...

1,2,3: As you say, eavesdropping on Thinkagrams.
4: Staff of Suckage is a known commodity of Gobwin Knob. Wanda used it in Act 1. Maggie used a Thinkagram to order the twoll in the armory to gather up all combat equipment that Parson could use, with emphasis on magic items. Smart money is Parson would be using the Staff.
5. Jojo was clearly in contact with Charlie during this time, and he talked the crowd into letting Parson through.
6. This is the biggest stretch, but that explosion was caused by Sylvia's mistake, and Jojo did something to Sylvia, likely something that did more than save her from death. It's possible the entire reason she was saved from certain death so many times is because Jojo rigged fate to lead her to make that mistake. Or something. Jojo and Charlie are in cahoots is the point.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 058

Postby Noigel » Tue May 07, 2013 4:31 pm

- Stanley could kind of throw the Arkenhammer and hold onto it kind of like Thor's ability to fly (which really isn't). In fact, on the same thought line, I'd love if the Arkenhammer could only be carried by those who attune to it... so say Stanley drops it, someone else like Wanda tries to pick it up and she can't. How bad ass would Stanley be then.

- Notice Stanley is freaked out by portals. While height is discussed, his fear of portals is probably the more important bit of information.

- I can definitely see Stanley and Zhopa as they trek up the stairs to help Parson. :)
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