Book 2 – Page 109

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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Kreistor » Tue May 14, 2013 1:48 am

StClair wrote:Yeah, and that pretty much covers the events of the Empire Strikes Back, too. If Luke had done the "smart" thing and stayed and continued his training, it's possible that Leia and the rest would have been able to escape without him. Pretty much the whole middle and last thirds of the movie is Luke screwing up and getting in over his head. It's a necessary part of his character development, his growth from being the pilot who "got lucky" once and destroyed the Death Star into a true hero and full-fledged Jedi.


I'm sorry, but no, that isn't even close to what needed to happen.

The Jedi training on Dagobah was not what Luke really needed. He didn't beat the Emperor with his all-powerful Force techniques. Luke was far too weak in the Force, and could never have stood up to him without decades of training. Even Anakin couldn't take the Force Lightning for long. The Emperor was just plain too powerful to contemplate. Luke needed that little time in the Dark Force cave, where he confronted his own Dark Side and the spectre of Vader. Everything else was just enough to give him an idea of what was possible with the Force.

Luke failed, truly. Did he kill Sidius? Hardly. Luke was a smoking wretch after Sidius lit into him. It wasn't Jedi Force powers that turned his father against the Emperor, but his father's emotions for his children that led to his treason against the Emperor. It wasn't even Jedi anti-emotion crud: Vader didn't get all unemotional in response to his son's pain. Vader felt love for his family, which is according to the Jedi a path to the Dark Side. Vader didn't save his son because he became Jedi: he only became a more independent Sith. And even then, he still died from the Emperor's Force Lightning anyway. He won because Sith can't fly.

Luke was never destined to defeat the Emperor: his father did that. Luke needed the hard truth of his family history, and that had to come in the hardest way possible -- from Vader -- in order to see that the Sith way was self-destructive. Luke's strength was that of emotional control gained from dealing with the nightmare of his father's treason, and that had to happen in Cloud City, far from the Emperor's strength, but as I said, it didn't defeat the Emperor, anyway. The Emperor was defeated by his overconfidence in Vader's loyalty, and his underestimation of Vader's need to defend his children, regardless of their political choices.

Look what Yoda says when Luke returns to Dagobah. Yoda has nothing more to teach, which tells us that when Luke left in Empire, Yoda had done all that he could. Luke didn't learn anything on Dagobah except confidence and the basics. Yoda threw out that "training" line to ensure that Luke had the confidence he needed to make the effort in the face of certain death. Luke could have stayed for three years, and it would not have helped an iota. The Force could not defeat Sidius in the first place.

As for the escape in Empire, Calrissian's plan would not have worked had Vader not had the distraction of Luke to occupy him during the attempt. With Vader on the ball, the Falcon goes nowhere, because Vader continues to need Leia to attract Luke. Han still goes to Tatooine in carbonite, but Calrissian dies, Leia goes under the torture device she was headed for in A New Hope, and who knows if Chewie is let to live, or just gets enslaved. Oh, sure, Lucas could write them out of that situation: nothing is beyond any author that needs heroes to live, but Calrissian's plans' fundamentals don't happen wihtout Luke's presence.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby allaces14400 » Tue May 14, 2013 2:06 am

Getting back to the comic... I'm seeing all forces converging on Gobwin Knob's new capital. Ideas for how Parson will successfully defend until reinforcements arrive? Considering they've next to nothing in the hex with the inferno going on, I can only assume that once it's put out, Wanda goes through and the Decryption idea comes back into play.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby erianaiel » Tue May 14, 2013 2:34 am

Sky Schemer wrote:Wow. I never thought I'd say this, but... Go Stanley!
Pretty nice character growth for the Tool here. Plus, it does show off that he's not wholly incompetent.


Stanley is the living example of the Peter's Principle in Erfworld. He is a warlord and does warlordy things very well. It is just all that ruler stuff that is beyond him, and like all management promoted beyond their competence level he tries to hide his ineptitude behind bluster and aggression.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby ManaCaster » Tue May 14, 2013 4:40 am

allaces14400 wrote:Getting back to the comic... I'm seeing all forces converging on Gobwin Knob's new capital. Ideas for how Parson will successfully defend until reinforcements arrive? Considering they've next to nothing in the hex with the inferno going on, I can only assume that once it's put out, Wanda goes through and the Decryption idea comes back into play.

If worse comes to worse, the Predictamancers can rally their allies to Gobwin Knob's defence through the portal, now that the alliance is becoming more public. Charlie would be hard pressed to take a city full of casters. If I were in Parson's position, I'd try upgrading the city with some sort of a Dirtamancy link. What do you think linking Sizemore and Ace would produce? A dollhouse with turret gun action and electrified fences that really light up?

Another big worry is switching the capital. Stanley is pretty tough, but a veiled ambush could be problematic. And of course, they need to figure out how to fix their communication issues. Hats still work, but they aren't as convenient. Maybe they could solve both of those problems with Hat Magic. Make hats that can send people around and upgrade the eyebooks to transmit through portals.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Mirage_GSM » Tue May 14, 2013 5:22 am

It's not like foreseeing "Parson might try to get Stanley to switch capitals to re-open the portal" and setting up a contingency in case he pulls that off is that hard.

He did foresee it.
He set up a contingency: Interrupt Parson's communication with Stanley.
Stanley is doing it anyway. There is no way, Charlie could have foreseen THAT.
And if he wanted Parson to change the capital to Spacerock, he could have just sat back and done nothing at all. That would have been way less risk than depending on Stanley's reaction in the first place.
Getting back to the comic... I'm seeing all forces converging on Gobwin Knob's new capital. Ideas for how Parson will successfully defend until reinforcements arrive?

Once Wanda goes through the portal, there will be plenty of decrypted units available, and it's not like the coalition armies didn't take a beating as well.
And of course, they need to figure out how to fix their communication issues.

We still don't know if Charlie can do that all the time. Yes, it's risky to use a mode of communication that may be compromised, but it is also possible that Charlie had to go to serious lengths to interrupt this conversation, because he thought it was vital and won't be able to do it again for a few turns.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby teratorn » Tue May 14, 2013 5:38 am

I agree with Mirage that this is something that charlie wouldn't have considered: Stanley moving the capital and all his casters to a place he can't easily reach. He even cut Parson before he could order it. Now a strike on GK won't end the side, Stanley would only need to make Parson heir.

Sky Schemer wrote:
teratorn wrote:I'm having trouble with the background in the last panel. There's a throne there, shouldn't it be the room and not the sky?


I believe the "camera" is in front of his desk, looking towards the throne with him seated on it and the (broken) window behind him.


You're right, and he did already in book one, but sitting with your back to a breakable window seems a bit dumb.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Jabberwocky » Tue May 14, 2013 6:09 am

Kreistor wrote: He won because Sith can't fly.


Actually, per the EU, Sith CAN fly. And the Emperor came back in a clone body at least once.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Kreistor » Tue May 14, 2013 7:54 am

Jabberwocky wrote:
Kreistor wrote: He won because Sith can't fly.


Actually, per the EU, Sith CAN fly. And the Emperor came back in a clone body at least once.


Lucas stated clearly when Ep 1 released that all books were no longer Canon. The EU was abandoned over a decade ago. Much to the SW fanatics' dismay. That was their main advantage in taking on and insulting Star Trek, but when Lucas shot the EU into the sun, lots of inconsistencies rolled in, didn't they? Just like Star Trek, now.

As example, in the first Zahn series, 1/2 the Jedi are supposed to die in the explosion of a vessel headed from the SW galaxy to a neighbour. Didn't happen. Also in the "didn't happen" classification were Clones of Jedi hunting them down.

So, I reject your Emperor Clones based on Lucas himself. And along with it, "Sith can fly". Shot into the sun.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Dante » Tue May 14, 2013 3:36 pm

teratorn wrote:I agree with Mirage that this is something that charlie wouldn't have considered: Stanley moving the capital and all his casters to a place he can't easily reach. He even cut Parson before he could order it. Now a strike on GK won't end the side, Stanley would only need to make Parson heir.


Oh, I'm sure he's considered it. Maybe no one remembers because it's been like five years, but Parson mentioned being unable to find any Gobwin units and surmised that it was due to Charlie's schemes. As soon as the capital changes, Charlie will sic his Gobwin allies on Stanley, just like he did to Saline IV. So while Stanley could avoid the end of the side by promoting Parson, just as King Saline did when Stanley was CWL, the question is would he? Especially after Parson was the one who put him in the dire situation to begin with.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby LTDave » Tue May 14, 2013 3:49 pm

I think there are no Gobwins to find because the volcano wiped out their lair (popping points) under the mountain.

Could be wrong, though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Finn MacCool » Tue May 14, 2013 5:11 pm

i don't think neutral units/natural allies need a lair. if you want to pop natural units in a city, you just need at least one unit of the same type as far as i know. and neutral units seem to pop randomly in the wilderness.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Lipkin » Tue May 14, 2013 5:43 pm

Kreistor wrote:
drachefly wrote:
Kreistor wrote:It's never been shown in a siege situation without siege units nearby. Doesn't mean it can't.

Look up its inspiration, Thor's Mjolnir, sometime. Then tell me siege is out of the realm of possibility.


He needed a purple. Purples are sonic siege. There was a red or pink closer to him, and they would have been dandy if all he needed were a mount or a lateral push. But he asked for a purple.


And even with the window gone, he's still holding himself up by Hammer. I know you seem to think there's the possibility of lateral mobility, but I have no idea where that belief comes from.

Since he couldn't get to the window, and had to hold himself up with the hammer, he couldn't swing it at the window without simply falling. So no conclusion can be drawn.

Oh, and BTW:

Book 2, Page 44 wrote:That filled him with all kinds of weird feelings. Decrypted dwagons. So would they respond to the 'pliers or the 'hammer? Would they love him or Wanda? He used the Arkenhammer to levitate back into his chair, then kept holding onto it. He didn't like the idea of dwagons that felt the same way about Wanda as they did about him. No way.


It levitates. That's up and down only, if you were unaware. It hangs him in mid-air, with no lateral movement suggested. Trying to swing the Hammer would disable the levitation and lose his concept of footing. Even if it could do both at the same time, it would be like swinging the Hammer in orbit: he'd have no footing to transfer the energy into and stabalize his position, so would just push himself away from the window, no matter how hard he swung.
It's more accurate to say of the hammer "It levitated" rather than "it levitates." Just because it levitated, doesn't mean it can't fly.

And if the hammer could only go up or down, why would Jack tell Stanley "Fly, lord! Up!"

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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Lipkin » Tue May 14, 2013 5:49 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
allaces14400 wrote:Getting back to the comic... I'm seeing all forces converging on Gobwin Knob's new capital. Ideas for how Parson will successfully defend until reinforcements arrive? Considering they've next to nothing in the hex with the inferno going on, I can only assume that once it's put out, Wanda goes through and the Decryption idea comes back into play.

If worse comes to worse, the Predictamancers can rally their allies to Gobwin Knob's defence through the portal, now that the alliance is becoming more public. Charlie would be hard pressed to take a city full of casters. If I were in Parson's position, I'd try upgrading the city with some sort of a Dirtamancy link. What do you think linking Sizemore and Ace would produce? A dollhouse with turret gun action and electrified fences that really light up?

Another big worry is switching the capital. Stanley is pretty tough, but a veiled ambush could be problematic. And of course, they need to figure out how to fix their communication issues. Hats still work, but they aren't as convenient. Maybe they could solve both of those problems with Hat Magic. Make hats that can send people around and upgrade the eyebooks to transmit through portals.

You can upgrade cities off turn, btw. And Sizemore shouldn't need to link with anyone to upgrade the city. He linked with Maggie to do a better job, but with her low or out of juice, it's doubtful she could link with him. But he could still upgrade on his own in a pinch.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Salem » Tue May 14, 2013 6:38 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Jabberwocky wrote:
Kreistor wrote: He won because Sith can't fly.


Actually, per the EU, Sith CAN fly. And the Emperor came back in a clone body at least once.


Lucas stated clearly when Ep 1 released that all books were no longer Canon. The EU was abandoned over a decade ago. Much to the SW fanatics' dismay. That was their main advantage in taking on and insulting Star Trek, but when Lucas shot the EU into the sun, lots of inconsistencies rolled in, didn't they? Just like Star Trek, now.

As example, in the first Zahn series, 1/2 the Jedi are supposed to die in the explosion of a vessel headed from the SW galaxy to a neighbour. Didn't happen. Also in the "didn't happen" classification were Clones of Jedi hunting them down.

So, I reject your Emperor Clones based on Lucas himself. And along with it, "Sith can fly". Shot into the sun.

Your argument as a few previous ones in this thread has some burden of proof issues.
Just because it never happens on screen doesn't mean it can't. First it's a world where people can lift other people magically why not themselves?
The better argument is he can't fly because he died, it seems to fit for Okham's Razor, in that you'd have to assume something stopped him from flying which is less likely. Sure it's possible he can fly but there was suction, less likely.
Third, Mace stupidcharacter might survive to be in episode seven which could be car magic or fly magic. Either way gosh I hope that doesn't happen.

So back to the actual comic, the fact we don't see him fly horizontally (I think we do in this comic) doesn't mean it's impossible. In fact things that can fly can sometimes also levitate. Not all things. But they're not mutually exclusive.

Your arguments have good logic but shakey premises.
Take for instance the hammer having siege.
It's possible sure, but not for sure. You're using things that are unproven to prove the conclusion you want rather than to say there are possibilities.

So
Stanely can't move horizontally with the hammer. - Conclusion
Premise 1 - Stanely must enter the throne room from the airspace.
Shakey Premise 2 - The hammer has siege so he could have used it if he could move horizontally. (Based on an assumption.)
Shakey Premise 3* - He calls specfically a purple dragon to propell him and not for any other reason, therefore conclussion.

*He needs the purple to push him. - Not clearly stated and unlikely as any dragon could probably have somehow pushed him in. (Granted it's possible dragons can't enter that room due to size restrictions and there are no bull rush rules so he had to have something else that could do it, but Ohkam.)


I'm not saying he can move, I'm just saying there is no conclusive way to prove it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Kreistor » Tue May 14, 2013 6:58 pm

Speaking of Maggie, she needs to run through to GK right now. There are no casters to throw up air defenses in GK. She also needs to report on Charlie's interference in comms, so she's got a good excuse, and plenty of time, to make the run.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Pokota » Tue May 14, 2013 6:58 pm

Since he doesn't appear to take damage from the sonic blast, I think I'll go with "he needed siege to break through the tower walls"
zyxophoj wrote:Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Kreistor » Tue May 14, 2013 6:59 pm

Salem, I'm not trying to prove it has Siege. Someone suggested that a Pane of Glass needs a siege unit to break it, so I'm countering speculation with speculation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby Salem » Tue May 14, 2013 8:02 pm

Kreistor wrote:Salem, I'm not trying to prove it has Siege. Someone suggested that a Pane of Glass needs a siege unit to break it, so I'm countering speculation with speculation.


Actually I believe they cited an in book example. The Atrium. But personally I don't remember if that's true or not, since I can't remember if crap counted as siege or not.

So if you're just being snarky based on a view that everyone is making assumptions based on flawed conclusions through a use of hyperbole that seems valid.

Edit: It would also mean I just got Poe'd
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby drachefly » Tue May 14, 2013 8:50 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Drachefly wrote:He needed a purple. Purples are sonic siege. There was a red or pink closer to him, and they would have been dandy if all he needed were a mount or a lateral push. But he asked for a purple.


And even with the window gone, he's still holding himself up by Hammer. I know you seem to think there's the possibility of lateral mobility, but I have no idea where that belief comes from.


... what? The window is being smashed in the second-to-last panel. Next panel, he's in the throne, apparently coming straight down into it from floating.

In fact, that's a near clincher. He was still floating as he settled into the chair, which had its back to the window. How did he do that without maneuvering with the hammer? Unless you think he ran around the chair and managed to get a symmetrical cape swish anyway. Or maybe the dwagon nudged him forward, and when passed over the throne he dropped himself into it before reaching the desk. I have a hard time seeing drifting like that being sufficiently dramatic for him.

Kreistor wrote:It levitates. That's up and down only, if you were unaware.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 109

Postby technojunkie » Tue May 14, 2013 9:09 pm

y'all that are fixated on levitate vs. lateral movement are overlooking a minor detail that obviates the whole debate. Also how genius the tool really is.

Zhopa threw the tool, that means he has a trajectory rather than simple vertical lift. Given that it's very difficult to throw anything with a straight up/down trajectory it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the tools hammer assisted arc had enough lateral movement for him to sail through the window after a perfectly timed sonic blast.


** EDIT ** nevermind, panel 10 clearly shows the tool hovering. carry on.
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