Book 2 – Text Updates 059

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby LordAcme » Sun May 19, 2013 11:25 am

kiyote wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:Still wondering why Charlie was so desperate to have him read the scroll, instead of just dying. Maybe being a magnificent bastard, he knew his seeming desperation would be perceived by Parson, who would then interrogate the bracer, thus revealing how active (and heavy-handed) fate was being, in order to wake Parson up to the true powers acting behind-the-scenes?

Parson dying would have been OK with Charlie, but Charlie already knows that Fate probably won't let Parson die. If Parson uses the scroll before Fate can arrange his rescue on the other hand, the Fate magic surrounding Parson will be unraveled, which also puts an end to the threat.


Has anyone considered the fact that Charlie may not be a complete bastard? While Charlie isn't opposed to killing Parson in order to get rid of him, that he may have tried the method that wouldn't kill him first?

Charlie is most certainly ruthless, but ruthless != vindictive.


Or that he has an ulterior motive. Charlie's first interactions with Parson were an attempt to get Parson's bracer + Parson over on Charlie's side.

Even if Parson goes home, I think there's a great likelihood that Charlie would try to summon Parson back to work for him. He did participate in summoning Judy too, so he has experience with caster linkups for the summoning spell. And he has a whoopload of casters to link up and an Arkentool to do it with.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Glome » Sun May 19, 2013 11:33 am

LordAcme wrote:
Denar wrote:So he can cast, but Fate was going to make it physically impossible to cast that particular spell? Is what I'm getting.

This is confirmation that he's a Caster, right?



Wasn't the fact that Parson is a caster confirmed way back in book 1? (rummaging) ah, here it is:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F140.jpg

That's a Grand Abbess Hippiemancer saying that too.


When it happened a lot of people thought Janis was lying to protect Parson, which never made sense to me but whatever, it's been debunked now. I suppose she could still be lying about his specialty, but that seems even less likely. Though we don't know what type of hippiemancer Parson is yet, signamancer seems the most logical. Someone on this thread brought up an interesting point that Parson understood exactly what the scroll did but the other casters didn't, which might just be his signamancer sense kicking in.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby multilis » Sun May 19, 2013 12:09 pm

We don't know if something is actively tampering with bracer or just actively tampering with luck and bracer is calculating that in with delay. The chance of casting spell might really be 0.0% in this situation because as soon as he starts something was 100% sure to hit him and stop him.

On caster, while likely based on dirtomancy chance (which suggests not just scroll being special), it could really be a mechanic of erfworld. A unit that trains can upgrade a level given enough time. Most units don't train. Similarly a few units are good at more than one discipline.

It is possible that any unit in erfworld that tried over and over again to cast a spell could in effect train to become a caster given a long enough lifetime of training, but no one has had enough dedication to keep trying despite failing. Parson would have to do a calculation on chance of a warlord or piker or troll casting a spell, etc. to be sure. (May still not be worth it, spending 100 turns to train/level a troll might be worth more than spending 10,000 turns to get first dirtomancy spell and 100,000 turns to become first level dirtomancer. But certain units mught have a natural talent to get upgrades to some fields quicker, especially archons)

In one of the earliest computer 3D graphics RPG games called Dungeon Master, by using magic items repeatedly one could get even a stupid barbarian hero with 0 mana to eventually get a few mana to cast spells, and eventually turn into a reasonable magic user given enough non-stop practice.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby ManaCaster » Sun May 19, 2013 12:20 pm

LordAcme wrote:Even if Parson goes home, I think there's a great likelihood that Charlie would try to summon Parson back to work for him. He did participate in summoning Judy too, so he has experience with caster linkups for the summoning spell. And he has a whoopload of casters to link up and an Arkentool to do it with.

Doubtful. He needs certain disciplines to do that, including Predictamancy. Since all Predictamancers are allied with his enemies and this would go against the Titans' will, the only way for him to create a new summoning spell is to capture and force a Predictamancer to participate. That doesn't really fit Charlie's MO.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby spriteless » Sun May 19, 2013 12:36 pm

Book 2 text update 59 wrote:It was a spell to break a spell and snap it back. It would...fling him home

Book 1 comic update 84 wrote:But when such a spell breaks, there is a kind of backlash. A cord which snaps.

Ahh Parson, I know why you can't cast it. You are not allowed to die yet. A cord like that snapping would leave you a gooey mess in your apartment.

The bracer's behavior would make sense if Erfworld first calculates possibilities, then fate moves the numbers around when certain results are needed.
T'was a splendidly speedy defection.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Doctor Foreman » Sun May 19, 2013 12:57 pm

LordAcme wrote:Wasn't the fact that Parson is a caster confirmed way back in book 1? (rummaging) ah, here it is:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F140.jpg

That counts as confirmation only if you take Janis's statement at face value instead of interpreting it as being economical with the truth.

[/quote]That's a Grand Abbess Hippiemancer saying that too.[/quote]
Which doesn't really prove she was telling the truth.
"If you leave out important things or events that you know about, the story is strengthened. If you leave or skip something because you do not know it, the story will be worthless." - Hemingway
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Kreistor » Sun May 19, 2013 12:59 pm

That... that was Foolamancy!

Jack... Jack may not be dead.

and...

Jack may not be Jack...

Something didn't want Parson leaving. Something DOESN'T want Parson leaving.

And what better place than to be than... right... beside... Parson...
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby joosy » Sun May 19, 2013 1:03 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Even if Parson goes home, I think there's a great likelihood that Charlie would try to summon Parson back to work for him. He did participate in summoning Judy too, so he has experience with caster linkups for the summoning spell. And he has a whoopload of casters to link up and an Arkentool to do it with.

Doubtful. He needs certain disciplines to do that, including Predictamancy. Since all Predictamancers are allied with his enemies and this would go against the Titans' will, the only way for him to create a new summoning spell is to capture and force a Predictamancer to participate. That doesn't really fit Charlie's MO.


He seems to have no problem with coercion, blackmail, or forcing people to sign contracts under duress.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Kaed » Sun May 19, 2013 1:49 pm

Personally, i think that Parson is able to undertand the spell on sight because of his mind, not some heretofor unknown signamancy sense. I think erfworld places cognitive limitations on it's inhabitants to keep the 'game' balanced. Think hard - how many characters have we seen that are consistently creative or wise? Most of them live in the magic kingdom and are high level, because the rest of the world affords little opportunity to have deep thought.

Parson however is an extremely intelligent person and grew up in a world where deep and creative thinking are possible but it was his escape. The reason why he can understand the spell while the others could not is because of a situation similar to a historian being shown an astrophysics paper and being totally lost. The astrophysics paper was not necessarily written by someone smarter or more talented, but rather someone who has a totally different focus of knowledge. By the same token the astrophysicist would probably have a hard time understanding why what a bunch of long dead people has any relevance or importance compared with the wonders outside our world.

Parson is the extremely intelligent person with no outside bias that can see the value in both things.
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby onlyme » Sun May 19, 2013 2:24 pm

Kaed wrote:Personally, i think that Parson is able to undertand the spell on sight because of his mind, not some heretofor unknown signamancy sense. I think erfworld places cognitive limitations on it's inhabitants to keep the 'game' balanced. Think hard - how many characters have we seen that are consistently creative or wise? Most of them live in the magic kingdom and are high level, because the rest of the world affords little opportunity to have deep thought.


I think every caster will understand a spell when he reads it. Compare the time Wanda read the dirtamancy scroll. While you read it you understand the spell and enough of the discipline to make it working, but once you are finished that knowledge is gone again.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby erianaiel » Sun May 19, 2013 2:40 pm

walpurgisborn wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:that implies he's probably not a dirtamancer, but definitely a caster of some sort.


He is a hippiemancer, because Janis said so
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby onlyme » Sun May 19, 2013 2:43 pm

Glome wrote:
LordAcme wrote:
Denar wrote:So he can cast, but Fate was going to make it physically impossible to cast that particular spell? Is what I'm getting.

This is confirmation that he's a Caster, right?



Wasn't the fact that Parson is a caster confirmed way back in book 1? (rummaging) ah, here it is:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F140.jpg

That's a Grand Abbess Hippiemancer saying that too.


When it happened a lot of people thought Janis was lying to protect Parson, which never made sense to me but whatever, it's been debunked now. I suppose she could still be lying about his specialty, but that seems even less likely.


If you read that sentence of Janis as "he belongs to us" it makes sense. From that point of few, he is supposed to break war. Breaking war is hippymancy, so even if he were not a hippimancer or a caster it makes sense to say "he is a hippimancer". So there are many ways to read that sentence without Jannis actively been lying but still not to meaning that he is actually a hippimancer.

We know from the happy-meals, that he is a "warlord, special". We knew he could enter the Magic Kingdom, which otherwise only casters can. Know we know he can cast. Now we are getting into nomenclature. Is everyone that can cast a caster? So he is primarily a warlord, but also a caster? Or is caster the special unit type specialized in casting, so you an only be a caster or a warlord. Then Parson would not be a caster.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Kreistor » Sun May 19, 2013 3:45 pm

Parson being a caster has always been up for debate. Janis could have been lying about him being a Hippimancer to save his life. "Hippiemancy needs a Warlord" doesn't necessarily mean that a Warlord needs to be a Hippiemancer, only that the Warlord needs to believe in Hippiemancer goals. And so on.

But being able to read a scroll pretty much puts paid to the idea that he isn't a caster of some sort. Signamancer makes the most sense, since it's a Fate school.

What does not make sense to me in this comic is Parson's failure to understand or study fire. The Art of War has an entire chapter (of 13) devoted to the use of Fire in battle. Fire is extremely important to any gamer with a serious interest in real warfare, especially those that study historical battle. The Mongols splitting the Templar army, for instance, is a critical example of the importance of fire in medieval combat. The Russian scorched earth policy that did so much harm to napoleon is another. If you head more forward in time, you've still got Dresden and Tokyo in WW2. Parson should know fire extremely well.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Fjord » Sun May 19, 2013 4:13 pm

Kreistor wrote:That... that was Foolamancy!

Jack... Jack may not be dead.

and...

Jack may not be Jack...

Something didn't want Parson leaving. Something DOESN'T want Parson leaving.

And what better place than to be than... right... beside... Parson...


First of all, it seems rather unlikely that it was foolamancy. If nothing else, then the speed you would have to cast the spell with is near impossible for a "human".
Secondly, fate does not need an active unit as an agent. It can use any agent it wills, like a beam to the head.
Thirdly: We have had no indication that Jack survived being killed.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby ManaCaster » Sun May 19, 2013 5:08 pm

joosy wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Even if Parson goes home, I think there's a great likelihood that Charlie would try to summon Parson back to work for him. He did participate in summoning Judy too, so he has experience with caster linkups for the summoning spell. And he has a whoopload of casters to link up and an Arkentool to do it with.

Doubtful. He needs certain disciplines to do that, including Predictamancy. Since all Predictamancers are allied with his enemies and this would go against the Titans' will, the only way for him to create a new summoning spell is to capture and force a Predictamancer to participate. That doesn't really fit Charlie's MO.


He seems to have no problem with coercion, blackmail, or forcing people to sign contracts under duress.

No, certainly not, but he does have an aversion to possessing any sapient units other than Archons. He doesn't even have a Chief Warlord for the bonus, and all of his caster needs were hired from the magic kingdom.

Anyways, he hasn't used the Summon Perfect Warlord Spell since Judy Gale, so why do it again now? As long as there are no other "Perfect Warlords", he doesn't actually need one. He is already by far the deadliest opponent in the game.

And if he were to do so, why would he pick Parson, when he could have anyone matching just about any possibility? He's already tried to kill Parson, so that'd make things kinda awkward. If he's going to go shopping, he may as well pick someone better suited to his needs.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lipkin » Sun May 19, 2013 5:13 pm

One of Stanley's requisites when summoning the perfect warlord was that "everything seem safe and familiar to him. No crazy surprises." Now, that seems like just a precaution. "Make sure he isn't out of his depth and in over his head." But what if it's true? Everything on Erf is based off something that Parson is familiar with. Why wouldn't that relate to scrolls? He reads the scroll, and immediately knows what it is.

And wouldn't being familiar with what everything relates to be a sign of a Signamancer? As soon as Parson makes the connection that someone or something's appearance has a direct relation to their nature, don't you think he's going to scrutinize everything he sees from now on to suss out what it means? And once he gets a handle on that, he could start using signamancy to bluff.

Could be cool.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Zeku » Sun May 19, 2013 6:05 pm

Lipkin wrote:As soon as Parson makes the connection that someone or something's appearance has a direct relation to their nature


He might have to update his profile

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby dwp222 » Sun May 19, 2013 6:36 pm

As to why the bracer wouldn't give a clear answer ...

I like the suggestion that, since Fate is involved, it may be accounting for what Fate "intends."

But remember, the bracer is a product of the Summoning Spell. Perhaps that affects what it will be "willing" to say.
Of course, that may be part of the Fate thing.

Great page, Rob/Xin!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Kreistor » Sun May 19, 2013 7:19 pm

Fjord wrote:
Kreistor wrote:That... that was Foolamancy!

Jack... Jack may not be dead.

and...

Jack may not be Jack...

Something didn't want Parson leaving. Something DOESN'T want Parson leaving.

And what better place than to be than... right... beside... Parson...


First of all, it seems rather unlikely that it was foolamancy. If nothing else, then the speed you would have to cast the spell with is near impossible for a "human".
Secondly, fate does not need an active unit as an agent. It can use any agent it wills, like a beam to the head.
Thirdly: We have had no indication that Jack survived being killed.


1) Affecting the senses is Foolamancy. Period. That is its purpose. It is Foolamancy: there is no other appropriate school in the lexicon.

2) Whatever was doing it was keeping Parson in Erfworld. the only known entities that desire Parson's presence are in the MK, and no unit can be in Spacerock to cast any kind of spell, because Spacerock just changed to GK Side. This demands that no non-GK unit is in Garrison, and all other units in City are shackled.

3) The only unit that has an interest in Parson that is not in the RCC2 is Charlie, anbd Charlie wants Parson to cast the spell. If he was aware of Stanley moving to change Capital, Charlie would push harder for Parson to cast it, not act to delay its casting by confusing the bracer. He would, if anything, fool the bracer into giving Parson 98% odds of casting, not 0.

So, no known unit type can be affecting the Bracer.

No klnown entity with capacity to affect the bracer is interested in affecting the bracer in this manner.

Yet, something did affect the bracer or Parson's perception of the bracer.

There are dozens of options. This is where we turn to Occam's Razor. The solution that introduces the fewest elements is the most likely. (I use the old form, not the more current "simplest solution" form.)

The only element I am adding is that Jack is not dead. If we assume Jack is not dead, then all things fall into place:

1) He can cast Foolamancy. He can affect Parson's perception and achieve this effect.
2) He has known interest in Parson staying.

You can speculate on any number of other answers, but this is the only one I can think of that a single change can achieve this result. We can speculate about t GMTTA linking and causing Parson's senses to distort. Requires multiple additions -- Links can cast beyond Hex borders off-turn, Thinkamancy Links can achieve Foolamancy effects, Tyhinkamancy can determine Parson needs to be delayed. Or maybe the Titans did it. (Can't imagine how much speculative abilities get you there.) We canpostulate that it was the Warlord Spell itself -- demands the Spell have intelligence, capacity to defend itself, can influence Parson's senses instead of just his attitudes. Any number of things.

But the one solution that makes only one change is this -- Jack is not dead.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Fjord » Sun May 19, 2013 7:25 pm

Kreistor wrote:...

But the one solution that makes only one change is this -- Jack is not dead.


Or the odds themselves could be changing. If, as it has been suggested several times, it is not a unit, but Erfworld itself that is interfering through fate, then it would make sense that the bracer would chance it's answer when fate devises a way to stop Parson from casting the scroll.
Like letting a beam drop on his head.
This introduces no new information, as we are aware that the bracer can make advanced hypothetical calculations involving fate (from summer updates).
That is your true Occams Razor answer.

Edit: Shortened it for convenience
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