Lilwik wrote:That's a philosophical idea subject to debate in reality, not something to depend upon being true in Erfworld. All we know in Erfworld is that some future things can be determined in advance by predictamancers and they call it Fate. Also, we know that carnymancers can manipulate future events somehow, and they also call that Fate. That doesn't mean that Erfworld is any more or less likely to be strictly deterministic than reality, and it certainly doesn't provide firm footing for a huge leap to the conclusion that Fate is some personified trickster who fiddles with Parson's bracer, especially when Parson is in a world with tons of tricksters that we already know about. I consider it more likely that Charlie or Jojo was using Carnymancy to make the bracer say .980104773 but the bracer knew about the beam about to fall and refused.Salem wrote:He used the word fate. Period. He also used the word free will. That separates it from reality entirely. The closest REAL not fictional ideal that I know of that comes close to that is a concept that combines determinism (For briefness everything is a reaction and therefore can be determined) and the concept that even though your actions are determined one of the determining factors is in fact you.Remarkable and unusual things happen all the time. If you wait long enough and search far enough you're guaranteed to find one, but you wouldn't usually think some agent caused it to happen. If you flip a coin and it lands heads a hundred times in a row, I'm going to call that luck, not an invisible ghost playing with the coin. The only thing that suggests that any of this stuff might be planned by some GM of Erfworld is that predictamancers are able to tell us about some of it before it happens, and that already has a simpler explanation: Predictamancy is magic.Salem wrote:In this idea it's not hard to look at fate shoehorning you. Whoops you misthrew that discus and it killed your dad. That FEELS active. Characters in the story say things that make it feel active. Nothing about fate feels like something in our earthly experiences. Especially since if you believe in any realistic non fiction/religious based view of fate there is no room for real free will. No room for deviation. Every point between A and B is predetermined. Ergo any story that talks about fate v free will at the very least leaves room for discussion as to the nature of fate. Which leaves room to talk about it from non "earth" views.
Has anyone ever suggested that there are invisible dirt monsters moving through the soil to make Dirtamancy work? Should we assume that there are invisible fairies flying around injecting nutrients into plants and messing with people's minds to make Flower Power happen? I don't think so, because inventing things like that is for the author to do.
I don't know why I'm even responding to you. You seem hostile and it gets under my skin.
I don't even care. I mean my main point is:
A: It is not unreasonable to argue about fate as an active agent in a work of fiction. Because while not necessarily likely is entirely possible.
Right now there are many possibilities behind the beam falling, as rob reveals stories more of them drop to a 0.0% probability. Jack is still a possibility however slim. If he is decrypted his chance of having been involved drops to 0.0%. So it's not impossible. Fate however is something people talk about in world, so to consider it for whatever reason, be it determinism, or fatalism, or fateisaliveism. All are okay to discuss. You attack people's rights to discuss them. No. Bad. Don't do that it's just unhelpful and slightly trollish.
Now if we accept fate exists in some aspect in the world it played a role in the beam either:
A: It actively is changing the world to stop parson or
B: It was fated to happen.
C: No role what so ever. - I added this in because it IS a possibility contrary to what I said above. If we take predictamancers at their word not everything is fated. Only some fates exist. This is why the world seems fatalistic. C only exists if you perceive robs world as being fatalistic.
D: No role again - but because some player outside of fate influenced the outcome. Note that in some way everything I say involves fate. Why. Because. Because I said so. Because some form of fate exists in erfworld. So talking about it isn't being stupid. It's just throwing out possibilities. Ignoring something that is at least possible isn't intelligent. It's not not intelligent but don't play the I'm better than you guys card. Just don't. It's out there in the ether, we can talk about it. It's okay if we do. It really is it doesn't hurt anyone.