Book 2 – Text Updates 059

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Intocabille_CZ » Thu May 23, 2013 8:18 am

Hmm I think I read through it but if I missed it, sorry.
Things I am thinking about are:

1) Parson is some kind of a caster, after all he did not dissolved in MK. But I do not think he has to be the all-in-one caster. I mean Seizmore, or how is he spelled, could cast shockamancy from scroll that Wanda had stashed away for personal use. I think that almost anyone can cast scrolls, I mean there is not all that much sense of creating scrolls like... lightning spell, if only a shockamancer would be able to cast it. Hmmm the way I see scrolls are like... crutches. So a caster can cast a spell outside of his discipline... which would mean that a caster can choose discipline on their own, but tend to choose one... except for Wanda who is sticking her pretty nose in as much disciplines as she can. Which means I am contradicting myself and Parson is all-in-one caster after all.

2) The scroll can be targeted at someone else. After all Jojo wanted to cast it on Parson but he was protected by the uh... Staff of Suckage was it?

3) Charlie could want to disturb the spell, He knew Judy, and now knows about Parson. The scroll and presence of Judy both prove he knows about the extraErfworlders and that they can get iN. He may be afraid of Parson finding a way back, so he could possibly try to prevent him cast the spell and let him burn to death. More safe that way? Especially while disturbing communications.

4) I also think it would be Fate or someone with help of Fate if the tampering is on the bracer level. They called it artefact several times. And artefacts are made by Titans, if it is made by erfworlders, it is simply a magic item.

So... yeah... that is about it.
Last edited by Intocabille_CZ on Thu May 23, 2013 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby sslrranma » Thu May 23, 2013 9:20 am

Intocabille_CZ wrote:Hmm I think I read through it but if I missed it, sorry.
Things I am thinking about are:

1) Parson is some kind of a caster, after all he did not dissolved in MK. But I do not think he has to be the all-in-one caster. I mean Seizmore, or how is he spelled, could cast shockamancy from scroll that Wanda had stashed away for personal use. I think that almost anyone can cast scrolls, I mean there is not all that much sense of creating scrolls like... lightning spell, if only a shockamancer would be able to cast it. Hmmm the way I see scrolls are like... crutches. So a caster can cast a spell outside of his discipline... which would mean that a caster can choose discipline on their own, but tend to choose one... except for Wanda who is sticking her pretty nose in as much disciplines as she can. Which means I am contradicting myself and Parson is all-in-one caster after all.


From what i understand, Wanda and Sizemore are opposites. Sizemore has the want to learn about magic from other schools but has no talent with them. Wanda has the ability to cast from many schools but no desire to learn. I think that any caster can use a scroll as a crutch like you said, but being able to cast outside your school/realm requires additional skills.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Intocabille_CZ » Thu May 23, 2013 9:29 am

sslrranma wrote:
Intocabille_CZ wrote:Hmm I think I read through it but if I missed it, sorry.
Things I am thinking about are:

1) Parson...


From what i understand, Wanda and Sizemore are opposites. Sizemore has the want to learn about magic from other schools but has no talent with them. Wanda has the ability to cast from many schools but no desire to learn. I think that any caster can use a scroll as a crutch like you said, but being able to cast outside your school/realm requires additional skills.


Hmm true, in the Book 1, Sizemore was arguing with.. Janice? about being able to learn nothing and about paying for that. About Wanda not wanting to learn, I guess I will need to read her past again. I thought that she decided to learn about other disciplines especially because of Fate. Like inquiring about luck vs fate, or trying the rhyming while uncroaking her brother. Maybe it is about experience and starting stats too? Like Wanda popping with 5% skill in every magic and a lot more in croakamancy and Sizemore popping with lot in dirtamancy and almost nothing in other disciplines, making it really hard for him to start with anything new. Then again, your take on it is much simpler so would be probably the right one.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Unclever title » Thu May 23, 2013 9:33 am

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby MarbitChow » Thu May 23, 2013 9:39 am

Stumbled across this while reading an article, and thought a few others might find it interesting. :D

Equilateratoria is now underway. New players are welcome to join at any time! (Rules)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 23, 2013 10:25 am

Lilwik wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:I'm not seeing how to reconcile free will and Fate without imagining that Fate or an agent of Fate (e.g., Rob Balder) tweaks things to respond to people's choices.
I know what you mean. It is hard to imagine perfect infallible predictions of the future even with magic. Even though Dirtamancy can do a hundred impossible things a day, the impossible things of Predictamancy can seem like a step too far. Wanda struggled with this and used the example of throwing herself out of a window. If she actually did that, Fate would either have to make a major tweak (such as creating a magical barrier to prevent her from falling) or else have to accept being wrong for the first time ever.

As it happened, Fate didn't need to tweak anything because Wanda was never going to croak herself just to prove a point about Fate. It's not hard to imagine that Fate would know that in advance about Wanda, since most people would guess that even without magic. Maybe some people would actually jump out of a tower for just the satisfaction of being right; that's just one of those choices people get to make. Those people probably aren't Fated very often, because Fate would know about them in advance, too. Looking at it that way, Fate could always avoid tweaking because it knows everyone so well that it always knows what's coming and who would need tweaking.

Fate must have known that Olive wasn't just going to immediately croak Jillian because Olive wanted Jillian to kill Judy. You don't need to be a master thinkamancer to figure that out, and Olive certainly didn't need any tweaking. Is it so hard to imagine that whatever predictamancer made the prophecy could magically plot out how each person would react to the situations they were presented? I'm sure some people in the forums correctly predicted that Jillian wasn't going to break in the box. That wasn't hard to guess even without magic! And so on, step-by-step, all the way. In fact, the prophecy must have been easy because everyone involved actually wanted to see it fulfilled, so no one was working to thwart it, at least until it was too late. That could be part of why it was such a long-ranged Prediction. That's probably also why the prediction specified only the ruler of Haffaton instead of naming the ruler; not because there was any chance that Jillian might croak Judy, but because of how Olive would have reacted if the prophecy had named her.

Prediction without tweaking in the presence of free will is no more amazing than crap golems. Free will just means that you can't always make Predictions about everyone all the time. Like the people who would croak themselves rather than accept Fate: they don't get Predictions. And a Prediction that specified that Jillian would kill Olive would never have worked because of Olive's free will. Fortunately for predictamancers, free will doesn't mean that people are constantly doing random stuff all over the place, so sometimes people are Predictable, and when that happens Predictamancers are magically aware of it.

If Wanda had thrown herself from a window, she would have taken minimal damage, because falling can cause anything from light damage, to incapacitation, to croaking, regardless of the height in question. No tweak needed.

Your theory about free will is off. We know from the intro to the prequel that units are formed to their fates, not the other way around. People can either can either be predicted, or they can't. Free will has nothing to do with it. It was Jillian's destiny to croak the ruler of Haffaton. Now, whether he destiny was specifically to croak Olive, and Delphie made it vaguer to make Jillian's path easier, or if it was simply Jillian's destiny to croak the ruler of Haffaton, and her choices and those of those around her would shape which ruler that was, I can't say. But I'm pretty dang sure that Olive had no bearing on the prediction, only on how it played out.

This isn't a type of story where there are infinite possibilities, and seers can see all the possibilities, and make a prediction of which will be the most likely to happen. If a predictamancer sees that something is going to happen, it's gonna happen, and it's the infinitesimal details that change around it. Had it been predicted that Jillian would croak Olive, you better bet your Quatloo it will happen. But instead, it said the ruler of Haffaton. Had Olive played her cards right, maybe Jillian would have killed Judy.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby bladestorm » Thu May 23, 2013 11:06 am

Lipkin wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:I'm not seeing how to reconcile free will and Fate without imagining that Fate or an agent of Fate (e.g., Rob Balder) tweaks things to respond to people's choices.
I know what you mean. It is hard to imagine perfect infallible predictions of the future even with magic. Even though Dirtamancy can do a hundred impossible things a day, the impossible things of Predictamancy can seem like a step too far. Wanda struggled with this and used the example of throwing herself out of a window. If she actually did that, Fate would either have to make a major tweak (such as creating a magical barrier to prevent her from falling) or else have to accept being wrong for the first time ever.

As it happened, Fate didn't need to tweak anything because Wanda was never going to croak herself just to prove a point about Fate. It's not hard to imagine that Fate would know that in advance about Wanda, since most people would guess that even without magic. Maybe some people would actually jump out of a tower for just the satisfaction of being right; that's just one of those choices people get to make. Those people probably aren't Fated very often, because Fate would know about them in advance, too. Looking at it that way, Fate could always avoid tweaking because it knows everyone so well that it always knows what's coming and who would need tweaking.

Fate must have known that Olive wasn't just going to immediately croak Jillian because Olive wanted Jillian to kill Judy. You don't need to be a master thinkamancer to figure that out, and Olive certainly didn't need any tweaking. Is it so hard to imagine that whatever predictamancer made the prophecy could magically plot out how each person would react to the situations they were presented? I'm sure some people in the forums correctly predicted that Jillian wasn't going to break in the box. That wasn't hard to guess even without magic! And so on, step-by-step, all the way. In fact, the prophecy must have been easy because everyone involved actually wanted to see it fulfilled, so no one was working to thwart it, at least until it was too late. That could be part of why it was such a long-ranged Prediction. That's probably also why the prediction specified only the ruler of Haffaton instead of naming the ruler; not because there was any chance that Jillian might croak Judy, but because of how Olive would have reacted if the prophecy had named her.

Prediction without tweaking in the presence of free will is no more amazing than crap golems. Free will just means that you can't always make Predictions about everyone all the time. Like the people who would croak themselves rather than accept Fate: they don't get Predictions. And a Prediction that specified that Jillian would kill Olive would never have worked because of Olive's free will. Fortunately for predictamancers, free will doesn't mean that people are constantly doing random stuff all over the place, so sometimes people are Predictable, and when that happens Predictamancers are magically aware of it.

If Wanda had thrown herself from a window, she would have taken minimal damage, because falling can cause anything from light damage, to incapacitation, to croaking, regardless of the height in question. No tweak needed.

Your theory about free will is off. We know from the intro to the prequel that units are formed to their fates, not the other way around. People can either can either be predicted, or they can't. Free will has nothing to do with it. It was Jillian's destiny to croak the ruler of Haffaton. Now, whether he destiny was specifically to croak Olive, and Delphie made it vaguer to make Jillian's path easier, or if it was simply Jillian's destiny to croak the ruler of Haffaton, and her choices and those of those around her would shape which ruler that was, I can't say. But I'm pretty dang sure that Olive had no bearing on the prediction, only on how it played out.

This isn't a type of story where there are infinite possibilities, and seers can see all the possibilities, and make a prediction of which will be the most likely to happen. If a predictamancer sees that something is going to happen, it's gonna happen, and it's the infinitesimal details that change around it. Had it been predicted that Jillian would croak Olive, you better bet your Quatloo it will happen. But instead, it said the ruler of Haffaton. Had Olive played her cards right, maybe Jillian would have killed Judy.

We don't even know that Jillian was fated to croak the ruler of Haffaton. That could have been an assumption based upon the wording of the prediction.

She could have been predicted to croak a non-royal Ruler of an extremely powerful side that had an army of its former enemies.
She could have been predicted to croak a Ruler who wielded an Arkentool.
She could have been predicted to croak the Ruler responsible for ending her Side.
She could have been predicted to croak the Overlord that Wanda was serving, since she was popped as a balance to the Numbers debt of popping Wanda.

At one time, all of these conditions applied to Haffaton. Now they apply to GK. Maybe croaking Stanley was her Prediction all along, but the conditions were right for them to be applied to Haffaton.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby mortissimus » Thu May 23, 2013 2:56 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:In a deterministic Erfworld, the plausibility of free will (convincing even to the predictamancers) would be dependent on Illusionism: Finding your GM-ing style: A flowchart


What an excellent chart!

I see that I am a Sandbox/Old-School GM (or rather was, long time since a played now). I like creating open play worlds, with a ton of things and relations to explore and pursue goals within. Which I guess is a big part of the reason I favor an impersonal fate, I think it makes for a more interesting world then a Titan named Fate does.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lilwik » Thu May 23, 2013 4:23 pm

Lipkin wrote:If Wanda had thrown herself from a window, she would have taken minimal damage, because falling can cause anything from light damage, to incapacitation, to croaking, regardless of the height in question. No tweak needed.
If Wanda really intended to croak herself, she could have done it some other way, some way that would force Active Fate to come out of hiding and do something overtly magical. The fact that she might survive falling off a tower is just a technicality. The fact that we don't see Active Fate doing obvious stuff, and apparently Delphie had never seen it either, strongly suggests that it never needs to happen because Fate knows the future and can work passively, just by whispering how things will be in the ears of Predictamancers.

Lipkin wrote:We know from the intro to the prequel that units are formed to their fates, not the other way around. People can either can either be predicted, or they can't. Free will has nothing to do with it.
You're not explaining that extraordinary claim very well! How can free will have nothing to do with Fate when we see so much free will in the story? Jillian wants to kill the ruler of Haffaton and no one is mind-controlling her into wanting that, or at least it would be totally unnecessary to use mind-control. Jillian was Fated to kill the ruler of Haffaton, not Bart or the ruler of Faq, so it seems obvious that Jillian chose her own Fate. Fate isn't throwing darts at a map to pick what people will do and then forcing them to comply; Fate is just knowledge of what people will do before they do it, sometimes even before they know it themselves. Have we ever seen anyone Fated to make a choice that would be against their own free will?

Lipkin wrote:Had it been predicted that Jillian would croak Olive, you better bet your Quatloo it will happen.
That's true, but the Prediction could never have been made that way. There was nothing in the world that could have prevented Olive from croaking Jillian when Jillian was first captured and put in the box, and predictamancers never Predict impossible things. No magical barrier appears to prevent people from doing something that would make a Prediction wrong, so all Predictions need to be cleverly arranged so that they align with people's free will.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Thu May 23, 2013 7:00 pm

Intocabille_CZ wrote:4) I also think it would be Fate or someone with help of Fate if the tampering is on the bracer level. They called it artefact several times. And artefacts are made by Titans, if it is made by erfworlders, it is simply a magic item.

When Parson referred to the bracer as an artifact, Sizemore corrected him and said he should call it a magic item because the summoning spell was made by mortals. Of course, he could have been wrong.


Given Duty, I'm not sure Wanda really had a choice about jumping off the tower. Jumping from the tower once wouldn't have proven anything, since survivable injuries are not a surprising result of a fall. Wanda jumping off the tower repeatedly, and arranging to have herself repeatedly thrown from the tower after becoming incapacitated, would have been a powerful piece of performance art about Fate, but it would have hurt her Side's morale, so she couldn't do it. Other suicide attempts would have been similarly blocked by natural thinkamancy, without need for Fate's intervention.

Later, she was briefly an ostensibly autonomous Ruler, but that was after her father asked her to stay alive and be a poison pill.


Where free will does come in: Did Overlord Firebaugh have the option of letting her disband instead of naming her Heir?
  • One hypothesis is that the Predictions involving Wanda just happened to be possible because he was predestined to feel and act as he did.
  • A second hypothesis is that Fate arranged for him to be predestined to feel and act as he did - though this seems to be inconsistent with what Delphie believed about his lack of Fate, not to mention her belief that he might be willing to trade Wanda to Haffaton.
  • A third hypothesis is that Fate caused him to feel and act as he did in response to Wanda's opposition to Delphie's plan. I think this is unlikely, as it seems to me that Fate tries to avoid what RPG theorists call "Force": determining psychologically significant choices.
  • A fourth hypothesis is that if Overlord Firebaugh did not name Wanda Heir, Fate would have tweaked some die rolls to cause Wanda to be captured before Overlord Firebaugh was croaked.


The thing is, I think both active Fate and the predestination of those without Fate are both possible, and in fact, the latter is sufficient to cause the former to exist. There are aspects of the story that are described as not being Fated that still have clearly been plotted out in advance. What is the difference between Fate and other final outcomes that are alleged not to be Fate but have been planned in advance?

I contend that there is an intelligence (at least Rob Balder's, but possibly with an in-universe manifestation) that has decreed that certain outcomes should be Predictable in-universe and that others should not be. We see Predictions affecting characters' choices, so it is clearly not the case that the story was written without Predictions in mind, with Predictability designated after the fact without disturbing anything. Since one difference between Fate and non-Fate is Predictability, and Predictability has shaped the plot, therefore Fate has shaped the plot and is not just descriptive of the plot. Hence, active.

In terms of the hypothetical explanations above for how Wanda was protected from disbanding when Goodminton fell, I suspect that the Predictions are generally worded to make die-roll tweaking plausible, but that behavior tweaking is a safety net. The reality is that the characters don't have free will on a meta level, even if they have free will in-universe. So whether behavior-tweaking is an in-universe capability of Fate may never be distinguishable.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Oberon » Thu May 23, 2013 7:43 pm

Werebiscuit wrote:Meh, I know Parson was not in any of 'those' instances but under the instance of changing from garrison ( movement disability) to field ( less movement limitations) units...so I don't think you understand 'my case' if you cannot see the parallels between a garrison unit climbing stairs and an impaired person climbing stairs compared to a field unit or fit person climbing stairs
I don't understand your case because there is no parallel between being a garrison unit vs. being a field unit and being injured or otherwise impaired in some way that makes climbing stars more difficult vs. being normally healthy.

Prior to the stairs reveal, the only differences known about garrison vs. field were upkeep and the ability to leave the hex. Nothing at all suggested that garrison units had any kind of movement limitation or penalty within that hex.

No mustang 2LT suddenly finds stairs easier to climb.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 23, 2013 7:52 pm

Lilwik wrote:
You're not explaining that extraordinary claim very well! How can free will have nothing to do with Fate when we see so much free will in the story? Jillian wants to kill the ruler of Haffaton and no one is mind-controlling her into wanting that, or at least it would be totally unnecessary to use mind-control. Jillian was Fated to kill the ruler of Haffaton, not Bart or the ruler of Faq, so it seems obvious that Jillian chose her own Fate. Fate isn't throwing darts at a map to pick what people will do and then forcing them to comply; Fate is just knowledge of what people will do before they do it, sometimes even before they know it themselves. Have we ever seen anyone Fated to make a choice that would be against their own free will?

Jillian wants to croak the ruler of Haffaton because she was created to kill the ruler of Haffaton. We are shown that Fate plays a part in the popping of units, and that some units are created with a designated role to play. So of course they are going to go along with their fate eventually. They were created to do so. They are free to make their own choices, but they popped with the personality they have. They are a tool created for a purpose. They are the missing puzzle piece, created to fit.

Fate isn't just foreknowledge.


"For when the price was paid, it was Erfworld which processed the transaction. The world would produce the unit that was called for...more or less. There was the matter of the Fate Axis as well, and this unit was turning out to be very special. This unit would be worth far more than the buyer had paid for.

That was no violation of Numbers, though. It simply meant that this unit carried a balance due. And though it was an astronomically high figure, someone would pay.

Zero always called, and someone would have to pay."


Fate isn't as simple as "This unit is special." It's "this unit is special, and here is the price." The higher the price, the more special the unit. The more special the unit, the more power that unit ultimately has. They were created with the intention of completing this task. No task, no need for this unit to be special, no power. This isn't the power of raw stats, or leadership. It's the power of changing Erf. Those without a fate get to decide what their purpose is, but it's up in the air if that purpose will be achieved. Those with a destiny have a purpose, and are explicitly said to be the only ones that matter. You are either fate's tool, or fate's plaything. And fate doesn't care about it's toys.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lilwik » Thu May 23, 2013 9:37 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:The thing is, I think both active Fate and the predestination of those without Fate are both possible, and in fact, the latter is sufficient to cause the former to exist. There are aspects of the story that are described as not being Fated that still have clearly been plotted out in advance. What is the difference between Fate and other final outcomes that are alleged not to be Fate but have been planned in advance?
How can you be sure that something has been plotted in advance if it hasn't been Predicted by a predictamancer? The difference between Fate and anything that isn't Fate is that Fate must happen, and other things just happen. Overlord Firebaugh saved Wanda because he loved her; there was never any doubt that he would do that in that situation, but it wasn't Fate because there were ways to avoid that entire situation; Goodminton didn't need to be destroyed, and if it wasn't destroyed then the overlord wouldn't have needed to save Wanda. Fate knew in advance that Wanda would not die because it knew that her musings about croaking herself weren't serious, and it knew that if Goodminton were destroyed Wanda would be saved, and it knew that the many other things that could have croaked Wanda weren't actually going to happen. The exact circumstances in which Wanda was popped guaranteed that she would survive to serve Olive, but all the rest of the story was a matter of free will; there were many ways it could have gone based on the choices that units make.

Lipkin wrote:Fate isn't as simple as "This unit is special." It's "this unit is special, and here is the price." The higher the price, the more special the unit. The more special the unit, the more power that unit ultimately has. They were created with the intention of completing this task. No task, no need for this unit to be special, no power. This isn't the power of raw stats, or leadership. It's the power of changing Erf. Those without a fate get to decide what their purpose is, but it's up in the air if that purpose will be achieved. Those with a destiny have a purpose, and are explicitly said to be the only ones that matter. You are either fate's tool, or fate's plaything. And fate doesn't care about it's toys.

"This unit was turning out to be very special."
That doesn't sound intentional to me. Just based on the way it is phrased, it sounds like the unit just happened to be special. On top of that, you seem to be personifying Fate for no reason. We've never seen Fate personified in any way, never heard Fate speak, never seen Fate's face, never even seen Fate take any action that didn't look like it was caused by something else. Wanda thinks that Fate gives units purpose, but Wanda is crazy. So far there has been no real evidence that Fate has any plan at all. Why can't Predictamancy just have magic powerful enough that it can work without anyone helping it along?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 23, 2013 10:24 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:The thing is, I think both active Fate and the predestination of those without Fate are both possible, and in fact, the latter is sufficient to cause the former to exist. There are aspects of the story that are described as not being Fated that still have clearly been plotted out in advance. What is the difference between Fate and other final outcomes that are alleged not to be Fate but have been planned in advance?
How can you be sure that something has been plotted in advance if it hasn't been Predicted by a predictamancer? The difference between Fate and anything that isn't Fate is that Fate must happen, and other things just happen. Overlord Firebaugh saved Wanda because he loved her, there was never any doubt that he would do that in that situation, but it wasn't Fate because there were ways to avoid that entire situation; Goodminton didn't need to be destroyed, and if it wasn't destroyed then the overlord wouldn't have needed to save Wanda. Fate knew in advance that Wanda would not die because it knew that her musings about croaking herself in her fight against Fate weren't serious, and it knew that if Goodminton were destroyed Wanda would be saved, and it knew that the many other things that could have croaked Wanda weren't actually going to happen. The exact circumstances in which Wanda was popped guaranteed that she would survive to serve Olive, but all the rest of the story was a matter of free will; there were many ways it could have gone based on the choices that units make.

Lipkin wrote:Fate isn't as simple as "This unit is special." It's "this unit is special, and here is the price." The higher the price, the more special the unit. The more special the unit, the more power that unit ultimately has. They were created with the intention of completing this task. No task, no need for this unit to be special, no power. This isn't the power of raw stats, or leadership. It's the power of changing Erf. Those without a fate get to decide what their purpose is, but it's up in the air if that purpose will be achieved. Those with a destiny have a purpose, and are explicitly said to be the only ones that matter. You are either fate's tool, or fate's plaything. And fate doesn't care about it's toys.

"This unit was turning out to be very special."
That doesn't sound intentional to me. Just based on the way it is phrased, it sounds like the unit just happened to be special. On top of that, you seem to be personifying Fate for no reason. We've never seen Fate personified in any way, never heard Fate speak, never seen Fate's face, never even seen Fate take any action that didn't look like it was caused by something else. Wanda thinks that Fate gives units purpose, but Wanda is crazy. So far there has been no real evidence that Fate has any plan at all. Why can't Predictamancy just have powerful enough magic that it can work without anyone helping it along?

For what it's worth, I agree with your part of the post replying to Chit Chat. Even though you are saying that Fate knew various things, which is personifying it more than I am.

As for "the unit was turning out to be special," it turned out to be special because of Fate. Without the fate axis, the Erf axis would simply make the unit, and it would be equally as important as every other unit. But instead, it's made special, which means it has balance due. That balance is repaid by fulfilling it's fate.

I'm not personifying fate. I maintain that it is a force. But we know that something is owed when a unit with a Fate is popped. Delphie is the one who said that the only ones who matter are the ones with fate. Predictamancers struggle with what to divulge, not because they are trying to preserve Fate's plan, but because what they see is immutable, and they want to ease the passage, which foreknowledge rarely brings.

Wanda thinks fate brings units purpose, and in a way she is right. Ultimately, a unit's purpose is their to decide. That's the free will aspect. But those with fate also have something they were made to do. Wanda has decided that it is her entire reason for being. Delphie didn't think that those without fate mattered, and to Fate, they don't. But that doesn't mean they don't have a part to play, just that they aren't pivotal.

Fate makes things happen, not the other way around. If fate were decided by people, it wouldn't be on equal setting as Erf, and Numbers. Fate is a part of the world.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lilwik » Thu May 23, 2013 11:15 pm

Lipkin wrote:Even though you are saying that Fate knew various things, which is personifying it more than I am.
I'm only personifying Fate metaphorically to help make my point more clear. It's only intended as a figure of speech, but just to be absolutely clear, when I say that Fate knew something, I only mean that a predictamancer used magic to determine that current circumstances had made certain future events inevitable, like the Fate of a unit surrounded by enemy forces on all six sides. The predictamancer calls the result of this magic Fate and that is why the alignment of Predictamancy is Fate.

I'm convinced that when Delphie said various things that made it sound like she was personifying Fate she was also just using a metaphor for the exact same reason that I was. Fate is hard enough to describe without having to be technically precise in all or your language, and Wanda was surely a terrible student. A few metaphors just make things easier.

Since you say you aren't personifying Fate, should I take that to mean that you are also using metaphors? When you say that some units matter to Fate and some units don't matter to Fate, what do you actually mean? And I guess you were just being poetic when you said: "You are either fate's tool, or fate's plaything. And fate doesn't care about it's toys."

Lipkin wrote:If fate were decided by people, it wouldn't be on equal setting as Erf, and Numbers. Fate is a part of the world.

If Fate is not decided by people, then Fate cannot have a planner. If Fate has no planner, then Fate cannot have a plan, and without a plan Fate cannot give units purpose. What is the meaning if purpose without goals? And how can Fate be active in any way, or tweak any thing, if Fate has no plan that it needs to work toward? A force can move things, but a force without a plan is just like gravity: tireless, unchanging, and totally unable to make tweaks.

Also, I wonder what makes Erf and Numbers so great that Fate needs additional abilities to avoid being underpowered.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lipkin » Fri May 24, 2013 12:19 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Even though you are saying that Fate knew various things, which is personifying it more than I am.
I'm only personifying Fate metaphorically to help make my point more clear. It's only intended as a figure of speech, but just to be absolutely clear, when I say that Fate knew something, I only mean that a predictamancer used magic to determine that current circumstances had made certain future events inevitable, like the Fate of a unit surrounded by enemy forces on all six sides. The predictamancer calls the result of this magic Fate and that is why the alignment of Predictamancy is Fate.

I'm convinced that when Delphie said various things that made it sound like she was personifying Fate she was also just using a metaphor for the exact same reason that I was. Fate is hard enough to describe without having to be technically precise in all or your language, and Wanda was surely a terrible student. A few metaphors just make things easier.

Since you say you aren't personifying Fate, should I take that to mean that you are also using metaphors? When you say that some units matter to Fate and some units don't matter to Fate, what do you actually mean? And I guess you were just being poetic when you said: "You are either fate's tool, or fate's plaything. And fate doesn't care about it's toys."

Lipkin wrote:If fate were decided by people, it wouldn't be on equal setting as Erf, and Numbers. Fate is a part of the world.

If Fate is not decided by people, then Fate cannot have a planner. If Fate has no planner, then Fate cannot have a plan, and without a plan Fate cannot give units purpose. What is the meaning if purpose without goals? And how can Fate be active in any way, or tweak any thing, if Fate has no plan that it needs to work toward? A force can move things, but a force without a plan is just like gravity: tireless, unchanging, and totally unable to make tweaks.

Also, I wonder what makes Erf and Numbers so great that Fate needs additional abilities to avoid being underpowered.

Units have fate attached when they pop. Parson was summoned because there were predictions for him to fulfill. Fate isn't about forgone conclusions. It's about things that need to happen. We don't know why there is need yet.

Fate IS like gravity. In Dr. Who, there is the concept of fixed points in time. You can travel in time, and screw with stuff all you want, but you can't change fixed points in time. If you try, the universe either goes out of it's way to right itself, or it breaks itself trying. Fate is like a fixed moment in time. It doesn't have a plan. It doesn't have reason. But these things need to happen, and so the universe is going to work itself out so that they do. Predictamancers can see these fixed moments, but not the details. The details are in flux, but get more solid as the event gets closer.

So Fate isn't sentient, but things naturally occur to lead towards fate. Not because they are inevitable due to events, but because it is a law of the universe, same as how time works, or the mechanics of fall damage.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lilwik » Fri May 24, 2013 1:14 am

Lipkin wrote:So Fate isn't sentient, but things naturally occur to lead towards fate. Not because they are inevitable due to events, but because it is a law of the universe, same as how time works, or the mechanics of fall damage.
It might be that way, but there's no actual evidence for that theory, is there?

I'm aware that Occam's Razor has nothing to do with which theory is most likely to be correct, and depending on the taste and whims of the author your theory could easily be absolutely right, but without any evidence in support of your theory we can only guess, and I think it's nicer to use simpler theories until more complicated theories become necessary. My theory simply acknowledges that some events are inevitable in Erfworld just the way inevitable events are possible in reality, and that Predictamancy can use magic to detect those inevitable events before they happen.

Your theory has everything that my theory has: inevitable events detectable by Predictamancy, plus it also has an additional invisible Fate that is an active thing that forces some events to be inevitable that wouldn't be inevitable otherwise. And you have to explain how the Fate of units is chosen since you say that Fate isn't a person and has no plan, but you admit to not having the explanation for that. So not only does your theory have more elements than mine, your theory also has a big mysterious hole, making it far worse than my theory by the measure of Occam's Razor.

Since I appreciate Occam's Razor I will stick with my theory of passive Fate for now, but I respect your right to use more complicated theories and I recognize that in the end your theory may turn out to be closer to the truth than mine when all the evidence is in.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri May 24, 2013 1:56 am

Lilwik wrote:Your theory has everything that my theory has: inevitable events detectable by Predictamancy, plus it also has an additional invisible Fate that is an active thing that forces some events to be inevitable that wouldn't be inevitable otherwise. And you have to explain how the Fate of units is chosen since you say that Fate isn't a person and has no plan, but you admit to not having the explanation for that. So not only does your theory have more elements than mine, your theory also has a big mysterious hole, making it far worse than my theory by the measure of Occam's Razor.

I disagree about which theory is favored by Occam's Razor. It's more work to write a plot-heavy story that simulates an absence of contrivance and overly convenient coincidence than it is to write a plot-heavy story that simply has contrivances and convenient coincidences. The simplest currently viable explanation is that Rob Balder came up with a clever cover for contrivance - calling it the influence of Fate.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lilwik » Fri May 24, 2013 2:04 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:The simplest currently viable explanation is that Rob Balder came up with a clever cover for contrivance - calling it the influence of Fate.

What contrivance are you talking about? Erfworld is one of the best stories I've ever read and could easily be the best story I've ever read. I find the idea that it contains contrivances and convenient coincidences to be disconnected from my experience of it. Could you please specify some examples?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby ftl » Fri May 24, 2013 2:12 am

Well, like the one in the last update we got. Where Parson was ABOUT to cast the spell, but got very conveniently hit on the head with a plank just before he could follow through. He got a chance to start casting it, so we the readers could see what it was like to cast, but didn't actually leave Erfworld.

Fate gives the author a perfect vehicle to do stuff like that and have it come across as perfectly natural and have it make sense to us. Rather than people being like "yeah, right, he got lucky in that the plank hit him at JUST the right time, but not hard enough to croak him DEUS EX MACHINA, HOW MANY MORE COINCIDENCES AND ALMOST-CALLS WILL WE GEET" we now go "yeah, makes sense, Fate made sure he stayed in Erfworld".
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